the_raven

I get where you're coming from, but personally, I never felt like Luke should have been THAT wise after ep6. Sure, the Death Star 2 ordeal gave him experience and an outlook, and things like that, but THAT much? I just don't think so. Maybe it's because I never got into the old-canon's post-movies lore, so I missed the character's development. If that's the case, then I admit my fault, but I was building my argument on the movies, not anything else - old or new (most of that eu lore never reached us here in east-Europe anyway). The fans here, on jkhub, are focusing on Luke's old canon iteration, the one where he's wise and powerful, and it's their right, of course. But as much as I hate to admit it, the old canon is gone, and no amount of fan nostalgia is going to bring it back - we just need to face the facts. This is why I'm losing my interest in SW, and am slowly but surely coming to only accept the OT (the original movies, not the novelizations or later re-issues) as canon. No prequels, no sequels, no games, books, or anything. It's just easier to cope this way. But as yet, I consider just the movies - prequels, originals, and sequels - because who needs an expanded universe anyway? Everything seems to get one nowadays, it's becoming ridiculous and annoying, having to keep up with everything. I was re-watching Empire and RotJ just now and was thinking 'My, but these movies really don't need an eu, or the prequels\ sequels'. If you turn off the fanboy, you can see that the movies were hardly any different from most other sci-fi flicks at the time, if maybe a bit better played out. But they were definitely made without franchising in mind - just a story that started out as one movie, but turned out to be two more movies, and then, into a whole mega-franchise. Compare that to nowadays cash-ins and money-grabs - every new blockbuster's made with at least 2 sequels in mind, a ton of merchandise, and so on - all style and no substance. Why the prequel movies worked (despite being what they are)? Because they were telling Vader's story, not Luke's, they weren't so dependent on the OT. Why the sequels don't work? Because they're telling Rey's story, but literally cannot function without the OT. The only way they can make anything original with the ST is by actually throwing away all the OT characters. It's something that they'll try to do with ep9, though they'll probably fail anyway. And since when is posting one topic, however controversial, considered spam? Also a question - if Mark Hamill himself disagrees with how his character was played out, why'd he agree to portraying him as such? He's a big celebrity, heck he's Luke Skywalker, surely he could have said something about how he wanted his character to end up, no?

Pffff, bullshit!

I already wrote about what I didn't like in another topic. Here's what I did like: 1) Snoke's death: I didn't like the fact that he died - being such an alleged badass and all, but the way he died was still cool. 2) The fight scene in Snoke's throne room - it felt somehow amateurish, but I still enjoyed it, maybe it's exactly why I enjoyed it, I don't know. Was also glad to finally see the Imperial Royal Guards in action. 3) The scene where Rey and shirtless Kylo get connected through the Force - that was funny 4) When the Resistance's flagship hyperjumps through Snoke's flagship - that was epic! 5) The planet Crait (though I expected it to be spelled as Krayt) and the showdown, but I think some things should have been done differently. Sadly, that's all.

It would actually be useful in MP

I didn't play enough Jedi themed games to be able to tell, sadly. JO\JA had good fighting, but let's be honest, even it was somewhat limited, and some aspects were badly executed - enemy is on ground, you cut instead of stabbing them?

W.T.F.?

Not even a fan-made one? Why not make one yourself?

That's basically what I meant by this ^

That's my theory, and it's implied through in-game dialogs. Except that it wouldn't be a gray order, it'd be a Jedi Order that's a Sith Order at heart. You see, being gray is a choice an individual makes. When you think yourself good, but do evil, you're not gray, you're just evil. In Force terms, you'd be a dark Jedi - a Jedi in title, but an evil person in fact. It wouldn't even be about choosing, Atris' order would simply corrupt itself. And again, it's KOTOR 2, not SWTOR 2. KOTOR means Knights Of The Old Republic. The first game was about Revan, and came out in 2003. The sequel (KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords) came out in 2004\ 2005, and was about the Exile. SWTOR - Star Wars The Old Republic is a spin-off\ sequel to the KOTOR games but is only superficially tied to them. It's only one game, so there's no SWTOR 2. Both KOTOR games were single-player RPGs, whereas SWTOR is an MMORPG, and is of far worse quality when it comes to story and originality - basically it recycled a ton of prequel content with some original trilogy content, and some KOTOR content, and added some of its own. Additionally, the KOTOR games take place ~4000 years before the movies, whereas SWTOR takes place some 200-500 years after KOTOR 2. Also, play KOTOR, both of them, they didn't win all those awards for nothing! They're some of the best (if not actually the best) Star Wars games out there! You'll love 'em, I promise you!

Actually I read about it, and one of the answers states that Dooku was honor-bound not to say anything - being a noble and all; whereas another answer states that he was just so shocked when Palpatine ordered Anakin to kill him, it flew out of his head, as he thought Palpatine would stop Anakin right before the final blow, as they agreed before the Jedi came. Both these explanations seem to come from official lore, so I don't know which is true. The second version comes from the RotS novelization, where Dooku actually tried begging for his life, saying that Palpatine promised him immunity, should he get captured, to what Palpatine said that it only counted if he had previously let him go. Anyway. Atris from KOtor 2 - please don't confuse this masterpiece of a game with that crappy mmo. But like I said, Atris was lying to herself, and Kreia simply opened her eyes. Atris thought that by understanding the Sith teachings, she could fight and defeat the Sith - knowing your enemy is crucial to defeating them, after all. That's why she had her handmaidens collect holocrons - Sith holocrons - and that's why she had them in her meditation chamber. But the Sith from Kotor 2 weren't the same as before, they followed different teachings, teachings that weren't even Sith to begin with, Revan's teachings - they were united by a hatred of Jedi, following a belief that neither of them understood, nor really cared about - to them, being Sith was about destroying the Jedi, nothing more, nothing less. Sion, who was the only confirmed real Sith, didn't care for teachings, all he cared for was battle, and the desire to stay alive; Nihilus (whose background still isn't clear) only cared about satisfying his hunger, and likewise, about staying alive (though he was long dead, being ghost stuck in the iconic outfit); whereas Traya, who was a dark-Jedi-turned-Sith, cared a little too much of teaching to see the obvious 'human' factor. That was her initial failure, because much like Atris, she thought she could understand Revan by retracing his footsteps to Malachor V, where she began to learn from the Sith, and fell to the Dark Side. Later she thought that by teaching Sion and Nihilus, she could finally do what she thought Revan wanted to do all along, but this blinded her to fact that her own students didn't see eye to eye with her, so they cast her out. She knew of delusion, of pride, of the desire to attain knowledge for a greater good that would ultimately be too much to handle; she knew Atris, because she had already been Atris, that's why Atris was meant to become a new Darth Traya, because she was following in her footsteps, doing the same mistakes. Sure, Atris could have gone on believing that what she was doing was right, and thus, she may have gotten herself killed, or she may have defeated some Sith and believed she had won, creating a new Jedi Order, tainted by traditional Sith teachings, so easy to become corrupted and misuse the power - after all, once you've tasted power, you can't let go of it, and if others don't agree with your vision, then they are fools who should be subdued, or destroyed. Having the power to subdue or destroy, there's little from having you use it. So ultimately, Atris'd have done the things she'd always thought evil, without even realizing it.

Not close enough. I was talking about it being a full spy movie, not a mix of spy and war movies. You know, by making it into a detective\ thriller kind of spy movie, not an action spy one.

1) I don't think the Dark Side corruption - which the eyes and skin are representative of - will go away if a person lost their connection to the Force. The corruption is a physical matter, so changing alignment, or losing connection to the Force won't fix it, unless you're specifically focusing Force Healing or something, but that's just my opinion. Still, a Light Side aura may be gone 2) No, I don't think they can, at least, not the same way a Force user would. What makes Force users different is that they perceive the world around them on a higher level, and they can directly affect (and get affected by) the Force, which means they'd get stronger influences when doing good or bad, and so on. So to answer the question - a non-Force-user would not technically turn to the Dark Side, they'd just be an evil\ bad person, but would be less likely to remain evil, should their motivation change - the Force won't feed their negative feelings as much as it would a Force sensitive or Force user. 3) Certainly. In fact, when Dark Side users do good deeds, they do them knowing why, and what will result from them. The Jedi do good because they're supposed to, it's something their trained to do, like dogs, they don't think of the consequences - in KOTOR2 we're actually shown this when on Nar Shadaa you give 5 credits to a beggar, and later he gets mugged and robbed by another beggar. Dark Siders know why they do good things (if any). It's simple, either they have an obvious interest, or they're doing it 'for a change', or just for kicks. 4) This is a matter of discussion. For one, there are people who'd say that one's objective perception is the only one that matters, though they forget that we're susceptible to delusions and other mental calamities. I don't think that a Jedi who fell to the Dark Side but doesn't acknowledge it, didn't fall. I think they're just lying to themselves. Still, if we follow Kyle Katarn's (and some other individuals' line of thought), the Force isn't inherently light or dark, it's how you use it, so whatever the alignment, if you're trying to do good things, even by throwing Force Lightnings, and succeeding, then who cares? But you know, if you go this way, you may as well justify the creation of the Empire, because peace can be brought either through diplomacy, or through destroying all opposition. If you played Jade Empire, they explain this when discussing the game's two main philosophies - 'open palm' and 'closed fist' - both can solve the problem, and the consequences can be good and bad in both cases, further, it's what consequences you're willing to see, or what consequences you actually see, that might matter most. For instance, you give a beggar some money thinking you're helping them live another day, but instead you're prolonging their miserable existence, or giving them money for booze and they're not really a beggar, or the money you gave them will actually allow them to buy a lucky lottery ticket and become rich. Who knows? It's all relative, and it's all judged by the consequences and our subjective perception. While I agree with your opinion on this being a misconception, I disagree with your example of Count Dooku. I actually did a search today, asking why Dooku didn't expose Palpatine before Anakin chopped his head off, and I got a particularly interesting answer, that in fact, he wasn't evil, he just had an outlook that differed from that of the Jedi and the Republic, and that Palpatine manipulated him by playing on that outlook.

Rogue One, as I previously wrote, was not a bad movie. Not a good one, but not a bad one either. And despite me liking it better than the OP, and definitely than TFA, I still kept thinking about what was wrong with it. Now, aside from many previously mentioned (by critics and fans alike) issues, I think I finally figured it out, provided, I had to see some photos of Cassian Andor for it. Basically, here' the said photos: In these photos, he looks more like a spy rather than saboteur or field soldier. This is basically what stroke me with the thought that Rogue One should have been a spy movie, rather than an action-adventure. A pretty simple conclusion based on a pretty simple thought. But yeah. Who's with me?

I've been looking through youtube for reviews on TLJ a bit, and noticed that a lot of people in the comment section were ticked off with Luke's death. Many complained that their favorite childhood character, and one that's had at least two generations of people growing up with, shouldn't have died in the film, or at least should have died a way more exciting death than just some over-exhaustion. Some of you, who've seen the movie, think so too, as I noticed. But let's think about Luke as a character, and let's leave out all the old canon, as well as new canon non-movie Luke material, aye? Luke is introduced as a 19 year old farm boy from a desert planet, who's desperate to get out of the middle of nowhere in the middle of nowhere (a remote moisture farm in the middle of the desert on a desert planet outside of imperial space - can't get anymore nowhere than that). As all young people, he yarns for excitement and adventure, he wants to travel, meet people, and get new experiences. He's hoping to get accepted into the Imperial Academy, because apparently, that's the only way to learn new skills, and go places - thank you, Imperial Ministry of Propaganda. But his uncle will have none of it, either because he promised Obi-Wan\ Ben to look after Luke, or because he doesn't like the Empire, or because he simply doesn't want to lose a free helping hand on the farm, so there's a conflict between them, but Luke, being a good nephew, and a nice and trusting young lad, agrees to stay 'for one more season', because he knows his family needs him, and because he knows there's no way for him to leave without their help. As luck the Force would have it, Luke's uncle buys two droids that actually belong to the Rebel Alliance, and this kicks off the youth's adventure. First R2D2 runs off in search of Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Luke gets attacked by the sand people while trying to retrieve him. Strangely enough, for a person growing up on Tattooine, he's not very well accustomed to dealing with the Tuskens, and gets easily ambushed and overpowered, and Obi-Wan has to inform him of their tactics. Later, Obi-Wan introduces Luke to the Force, the story of Anakin Skywalker (Luke's mysterious father who was a navigator on a spice freighter, as he was told by his uncle) and all that good stuff. In the meantime, the Empire tracks the droids to the moisture farm where Luke lives, and kills his uncle and aunt, which means he's now free of any obligation to go anywhere he pleases. He grieves for his dead relatives, but it doesn't look like much, he pretty much just accepts it, and moves on. At the Mos Eisley cantina, knows better than to mess with some drunk tough-guys, but still ends up provoking them with his 'leave me alone' attitude. Later, he remarks at how the Millennium Falcon is a 'piece of junk', even though it's his only way of getting off Tattooine. Aboard the Falcon, and en route to Alrderaan, he gets his first taste of the Force, and although initially distraught that he can't deflect the training bot's shots - as all young and maximalistic people would - he gets encouraged by Obi-Wan to 'try it again with the visor closed'. He succeeds. Then they reach the Death Star where he meets princess Leia, and attempts to bust her out of prison. Now, I'm not sure how much tail a 19 y.o. in 1977 would get, but since Luke's from a remote farm in a desert, I imagine, he didn't get much either way (- none of the old canon material mentions him having a girlfriend on Tattooine in fact, if I'm not mistaking, but yeah, we've agreed to leave out old EU material). So he gets the hots for Leia, which later turns into a popular joke among fans. But this isn't explored much. They make their escape from the Death Star, and Luke proves to be quite a capable adventurer, managing to use a blaster rifle, a grappling hook, do a Tarzan jump, and even shoot a starship's turret against fast-moving starfighters. Later they reach the Rebel Base, where he participates in a defensive assault on the Death Star, and blows it up by using the Force, and his prior experience of bullseying Womp Rats in his T-16 back home, which saves the Rebellion. He gets decorated. A farmboy's dream of greatness becomes reality. In the second movie, he's on Hoth, patrolling the snowy wastes, making sure there's nothing that can inform the Empire of the Rebellion's new base. He, again, gets ambushed by the natives, this time, a Wampa, and again, is knocked out. He wakes up in the Wampa's cave, and seemingly having had some remote training by Obi-Wan's ghost, Force grabs (now) his lightsaber, and defeats the beast before it can tear him limb from limb. He then tries to get out, but his fatigue (and it seems, the weather) gets the best of him, but before passing out, he calls out for Obi-Wan's ghost to help him, although it seems that by that point, he should be aware that ghosts can't really help him. He only survives thanks to Han, who stuffs him inside a dead Taun-taun. Once he's recovered, he gets a small confidence boost after Leia kisses him to piss off the overconfident Han. Proving himself a good pilot, he's charged with harpooning the Empire's AT-ATs, which are now onto the Rebels, and attacking. Sadly, his speeder is shot down, and his co-pilot is dead, so he improvises by using a grappling hook, his lightsaber, an a grenade, to blow up his target. Then he somehow makes his way to Echo Base, and onto his X-wing, using it to fly off to Dagobah, searching for Master Yoda, as advised by Obi-Wan's ghost, despite him having to regroup with the rest of the Rebels, as initially planned. Getting to Dagobah, he crashes, and feels like his decision to come there was a mistake, influenced fatigue-induced hallucination, but then he meets Yoda, who acts all obnoxious, to test him. A test that Luke fails because he's too arrogant to deal with cookie old characters. He also proves to be greedy by closing his supply case before Yoda could take some. Still, Yoda promises to take him to 'meet Yoda', but only after they went to his hut, where Luke first refuses to eat Yoda's stew, and later gets a change of heart once he finally learns who Yoda is. So he suddenly becomes all humble and respectful of the old hermit, because he's opportunistic, and wants to learn to be a Jedi. He even declares himself ready for anything, and not afraid. So then we seem him running around the forest-jungle, jumping and climbing, and listening to Yoda's preaching. Later he tries to get his X-wing out of the swamp, but fails, and gives up, but once Yoda does it instead, he feels even more of a failure, but still mans up. When he comes across the cave, he doesn't heed Yoda's advice, and still takes his weapons with him, defeating a version of himself in Vader armor. Later, after some more meditation, he gets a vision in which Han, Leia, and Chewie are in trouble, and runs off to save them, despite not being ready. He does promise to return, although strongly advised against leaving in the first place. Once he gets to Cloud City, he's led into a trap by Vader, who plans to freeze him in carbonite, and deliver him to the Emperor. This plan fails, as Luke proves to be a capable um...monkey. Despite putting up a relatively decent fight against a far more experienced fighter, ultimately, he's overpowered and cornered, and once he learns the final truth about his father, after a fit of denial rage, he decides to die rather than to join the Empire. But he doesn't die, and instead ends up hanging off of an antenna, from where he telepathically reaches out to Leia, and is rescued. Finally, he is reunited with the rest of the Rebels, gets a prosthetic hand, and prepares to continue the fight. In the third movie, he sends his friends to infiltrate Jabba the hutt's palace, and save Han, but they get caught, and once he shows up himself, he likewise gets captured, while still outsmarted, this time, he's not knocked out. So they get taken to the Sarlacc pit where his seemingly back-up plan is used, and he saves everyone by using his lightsaber. From there, they find out of Death Star 2, and plan to destroy it, but realizing he's a liability to the mission because Vader can sense him, he turns himself over to the Imperials, so as to no thwart the Rebels' plan to destroy the shield generator, but also because he wants to turn his father back to the light side. After arguing with the Emperor, and a brief duel with Vader, he throws away his lightsaber, and claims he'd rather die a Jedi, which the Emperor is happy to grant, but when he starts whining like a little b@tch, Vader's fatherly feelings kick in, and he is saved. So he pulls Vader off Death Star 2 which is now falling apart. Finally, he is reunited with his friends, burns his father's suit, and looks happily into the future. In the new trilogy, we know that he continued the Jedi tradition, and opened an academy. Here he taught his nephew Ben, and a number of other kids, but once he sensed the Dark Side in Ben, acting on impulse, he decides to murder him in his sleep. Moments before striking the boy, he hesitates, but that's enough for Ben to feel betrayed and tear the temple down, killing off everyone BUT Luke. Disappointed with himself, he again acts not as a Jedi Master, but as some inexperienced wannabe, and runs off and away from the Galaxy, and any responsibility, where no-one can find him, until Rey does. Once she does find him, he refuses to return to the Rebellion, and acts like a spoiled brat, acting how much of a badass he is in climbing the cliffs and fishing, and doesn't even want to listen to Rey. Later, once he notices her affinity for the Force, he agrees to train her, but as soon as she Force trances towards the Dark sinkhole, and he can't reach her, he freaks out fearing she'll be a second Kylo Ren that he'd create. So again, acting not as a Jedi Master, he tries to run and hide from his responsibilities, and tells Rey to get lost. She gives up on him, and it's not until he sees Yoda's ghost, who mocks him for not being wise enough that he realizes that it's time to face pull his head out of the stone-hut, and do what has to be done, so he projects himself onto Crait and helps the remaining Resistance troops escape while he's holding back Kylo Ren and his forces. Generally speaking, Luke wasn't what everyone thinks of when they think of a Jedi Master; he's more real, more human. His failures come from a number of sources: he was too old to be trained as a Jedi, he didn't finish his own training, he was prideful (as he himself admitted), to name a few. So to recap: Did Luke progress between Ep4 and Ep8? Yes, he did.Did Luke wisen-up? Only partly.Is Luke really fit to be a Jedi Master? I don't think so, after all, he didn't even formally attain the rank of Knight.Why did Luke die become one with the Force? I don't know. Some think it's because the hits Kylo delivered affected him through the Force, which may be plausible since Kylo got wet after contacting a wet Rey, but it's only a theory.Either way, what I'm going at, Luke - despite being a great character, played by a great actor - isn't that much a big deal, so his death shouldn't be that big a deal also. I'm not talking of the character's iconicity in the real world, but of his overall progress in the franchise. Yes, he was a hero, but as a Jedi, he was pretty lousy, and not really worth all the rage.

now i don't want to be an ass, but honestly, the outfit models and textures could use a big improvement. they didn't look all that realistic when the originals were released, despite the texture effects

That was great!! Technically, teaching a machine to sing (or at least play music) should be easier than teaching it to speak, don't you think? Music is all about algorithm after all. I wonder though, how does one make machinimas?

Um, well, there was a fire saber mod that also replaced hilts with fire orbs, so it kinda made you feel like a fire-bending mage or something (kinda), but I really have no idea. There was a white mage robe mod for human Jaden also, I think it came with a mage staff weapon (thought I could be mistaking). Yeah, that's all I got at this rate.

Aye, just watched the movie, felt like RotJ and Empire done backwards, with some details changed (no Death Star or teddy-bears this time! though the penguin bunnies were, well, surprisingly not as relevant as I thought from the trailers - which was good). Generally, the movie was ok, not great, but it was decent, I think. Definitely an improvement over TFA. A few issues I had were: 1) Snoke is just another nobody, as @ mentioned. Sure, I get it, they wanted an alternate take on Vader killing the Emperor and ruling the Empire instead of saving Luke, but come on, you intrigue everyone with this disfigured, powerful, untouchable character, only to kill him off as soon as he gets any development - that was just cheap. I do admit, the way he died was pretty funny and smart. 2) Leia not remaining on the doomed cruiser instead of Admiral whatshername - sure, having Leia die is a turndown, but Fisher died, and I'd rather not see another CG abomination in the next movie. Of course, Fisher was still alive when TLJ was filmed, but you know... Plus, Leia said it herself before boarding the transport that she was tired of it all. 3) Why are seemingly all the Resistance leaders female? I have nothing against women, it just seems strange that the Rebellion is a matriarchy. 4) Instead of sacrificing a decorated admiral, they could have sacrificed some insignificant character, like one of the hundreds of file-and-folder soldiers, a janitor, or better yet, a droid - tactically, it'd have been a way better choice. 5) Admiral whatshername dies before her romantic subplot with Po could happen - the first dialog the two had, I instantly said "They'll be sleeping together!", she even admitted to like him when they brought him aboard the transport. But it never happened. Such a disappointment. 6) Rey still not getting proper training. All she got was the meditation scene where she saw the sinkhole, and swinging the lighsaber around a rock. The moment she cut it, I swear, I thought Luke would say something like "That was a priceless and ancient piece of Jedi history. Now it's gone. Way to go, hotshot!" 7) Kylo Ren, although did wisen up a bit (I think), is still pretty much a tantrum throwing kid. Having him run state is bad news waiting to happen. 8) Still no background on the Knights of Ren. I was hoping we'd see them destroying Luke's temple. Either by Ben running off and returning with them, or by them storming the temple and Ben leaving with them. 9) Very little exposition of Ben destroying Luke's temple - all we got was him collapsing the roof\ walls on Luke. I was expecting more. Sure, who needs more when we got the reason behind it, but I think that in this particular case, the more part would have benefited the movie, it is an action movie, after all. We didn't see Anakin slaughter the Jedi in RotS, so they may have as well shown Ben do it. But no! 9) A lot of times, jokes ruined the mood. Luke is mostly the culprit here, either when he throws away the lightsaber, or when he "paged" through the sacred Jedi books, it just kinda ruined the overall mood for me a bit. As isolated cases, the jokes are good though, or had the movie not been so tension-driven. 10) The first half of the film was kinda slow, but I suppose it's not that much an issue, after all, movies can, and should, be different. Anyone here agree?

i'd also say that since they're fighting an oppressive government, they might not be killing to increase sympathy for their cause, we have some real-life examples of partisans and rebel fighters not killing people on principle

meh, the reboot was cheap