Fix the WIP Diaries!?

[AshuraDX]

As you other frequent visitors of the WIPs, Teasers & Releases Section will have noticed it was taken over by a ton of for some part very unstructured and absolutely chaotic, massive WIP Threads.
The worst of these threads hold links to a bazillion models, without properly tagging them so taht people looking for a model can hardly find them, this has lead to some people flaming newcomers for requesting a model that has been done before and could be found in thread XYZ, without providing a link and instead referring them to use the search function - which won't find the post that has the link to the sought after model, if said post only has a picture of and a link to said model witohut giving a name.

What can we do to fix this?
Lock those Diary threads that do not hold a detailed catalogue of the presented models and describtion of what the thread is all about in the first post of the thread.
This would require those that want to keep their massive Threads to go through their Threads, and gather a collection of links to and preview images (the Model Icons used for the games Multiplayer Character selection are Ideal for this) for every model, or if they set them up in bundles, a preview pic and a description text for each bundle.
These could be grouped using Spoiler Tags, to give even more oversight over the thread.

Here's an example, using icon images from base JKA as an example, obviously without proper links to a download.


Star Wars related Models:

Heroes

Kyle Katarn                Lando Calrissian        Chewbacca

Sith

Desann                      Alora                          Reborn

 

Bundles:

 

Minecraft Bundle

This Bundle contains bla,bla and bla - you get the idea

What do you guys think of this?
I think it could help our community greatly if we organised lists for the models in each of those threads, especially since I've seen concerns about this issue from a few people, @@minilogoguy18 and @@Bek for example.

This is a rough draft for now, ideally the model sources should be stated aswell, which could become another way to sort the models in the first post.
 

[minilogoguy18]

Finally, some recognition on this problem, it's true that new comers come on here, request something only to be told it's already been done and that they have to dig through a massive WIP thread to find it because the file isn't even hosted on this site.

 

So there is even another issue here, most of the stuff can't pass approval to be hosted on this site so an external link is needed so people just checking the downloads section wont even find what someone else told them existed.

[Circa]

This has been recognized multiple times before, but too many people freaked out for us wanting to be more strict about it.

 

I personally think that large WIP threads should not be allowed. There are multiple reasons for this, both in the interest of the author and the reader.

• Your mods don't get found easily
• If they aren't allowed to be hosted in our file section, why would you want to bury it in a massive thread for nobody to find?
• Confusion
• Disorganization
• Clutter
• Each mod doesn't get the attention that it could or should

I think part of the reason people are using these massive threads is to not clutter the forum with separate threads and make it easier, but it's doing the complete opposite.

 

I think the other main reason people do it, is to avoid as little of critiquing as possible. A cluttered thread is least likely to promote fluid critique, because they post a new project randomly in the thread before the older ones could be acknowledged.

 

I had never seen this done on FileFront or the Void or other modding forums. Perhaps they didn't allow it. I'm in favor of not allowing it. I avoid those threads at all costs to save my brain from having an OCD attack.

 

EDIT: on what Ashura said as a solution: Nobody will want to do that. Some people have dozens of models and mods that they'd have to do that for. The simple and sanest solution would be to disallow it from now on.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Circa

[therfiles]

Perhaps there could be easy-to-use templates available for these kind of threads? In addition, maybe there would be some easy way to categorize the WIPs for easy access (skins, mods, SP, etc). Something along the "tagging" system used in the file section.

[Seven]

But do we really want a new thread every time someone makes a slight recoloration or ports a model? I think like @@therfiles said, there should be a template for the front page of a wip thread, and if it is not being properly updated, lock it.

[AshuraDX]

This has been recognized multiple times before, but too many people freaked out for us wanting to be more strict about it.

 

I personally think that large WIP threads should not be allowed. There are multiple reasons for this, both in the interest of the author and the reader.

• Your mods don't get found easily
• If they aren't allowed to be hosted in our file section, why would you want to bury it in a massive thread for nobody to find?
• Confusion
• Disorganization
• Clutter
• Each mod doesn't get the attention that it could or should

I think part of the reason people are using these massive threads is to not clutter the forum with separate threads and make it easier, but it's doing the complete opposite.

 

I think the other main reason people do it, is to avoid as little of critiquing as possible. A cluttered thread is least likely to promote fluid critique, because they post a new project randomly in the thread before the older ones could be acknowledged.

 

I had never seen this done on FileFront or the Void or other modding forums. Perhaps they didn't allow it. I'm in favor of not allowing it. I avoid those threads at all costs to save my brain from having an OCD attack.

 

EDIT: on what Ashura said as a solution: Nobody will want to do that. Some people have dozens of models and mods that they'd have to do that for. The simple and sanest solution would be to disallow it from now on.

Yes, completely disallowing these threads is another option, and if you follow my suggestion that we close Threads that do not meet the criteria

[Archangel35757]

give the thread owner the ability to go back and delete/cull old posts (anybody's post... and bloated, senseless comments) from a WIP thread they authored.

 

Maybe impose a page limit to WIPs... so thread owner has to cull out old pages?

[Xycaleth]

Please don't do that. I used to love going through long threads (when they were for one mod like a map, or a model for example) to see how it evolved and the direction it took over time. Not so much now since it takes so much time, but I'm sure there are other people who do the same.

 

Letting authors delete posts would mean destroying that story of how they're mod was created.

 

I think the reason people make these crazy WIP threads is because most people are just making ports or recolouring or reskinnig models. And this takes a handful of weeks to complete and then they go onto the next best thing. Creating a new thread for each would seem a bit spammy. Putting them all in one thread also doesn't seem great. When filefront was still around as frankensteining and porting were frowned upon, people mainly made mods from scratch which generally takes a lot longer and so you don't get so many threads spawning every day.

 

That's my view anyway.

[Barricade24]

I'm inclined to think that large WIP threads do have a purpose. I myself use one. However, all of my files can be found on the first page, leaving not a whole of searching to be done. With that said, I agree 100% that the large wip threads, unless they have structure like mine, are quite difficult to navigate through as some people have made so many things that it will take forever to find what they're looking for. I also feel that @@Xycaleth has a point, I don't like the idea of having a bunch of different threads for every new reskin and things like that.

 

If we do decide to keep large WIP threads, the first page should include an index of the files, so people can find them easier.

 

I'm open to exploring this topic more.

 

EDIT:

 

Upon reader the first post more, I'm finding it mirrors what I am thinking.

[AshuraDX]

@@Circa added an option to the poll

[Kualan]

Content (regardless of your opinion of its quality) is being produced a lot faster and in larger quantities these days, so having larger WIP threads actually leads to better organisation in my opinion as it minimises the cheap-and-quick projects from overwhelming the singular, more in depth projects that are worthy of their own threads.

 

The alternative is you'll have people filling up the subforum with countless topics making it a lot more spammy. Just as there are folks railing against larger diary-style threads, there'll be people railing against "too much spam in the WIP forum" should we get rid of them completely.

 

The best compromise is to instill a little more organisation on the threads that already exist. Guidelines on things like an updated front page with links and what-not (as I have on my thread: https://jkhub.org/topic/4930-kualans-kitbash-workshop/)is all it needs to resolve the primary objection which seems to be "it's too hard to find stuff".

[AshuraDX]

Content (regardless of your opinion of its quality) is being produced a lot faster and in larger quantities these days, so having larger WIP threads actually leads to better organisation in my opinion as it minimises the cheap-and-quick projects from overwhelming the singular, more in depth projects that are worthy of their own threads.

 

The alternative is you'll have people filling up the subforum with countless topics making it a lot more spammy. Just as there are folks railing against larger diary-style threads, there'll be people railing against "too much spam in the WIP forum" should we get rid of them completely.

 

The best compromise is to instill a little more organisation on the threads that already exist. Guidelines on things like an updated front page with links and what-not (as I have on my thread: https://jkhub.org/topic/4930-kualans-kitbash-workshop/)is all it needs to resolve the primary objection which seems to be "it's too hard to find stuff".

What you have there in your first post is very close to my suggested solution in my first post here.

I do see the value in these long Multiproject threads, but the way some of these are atm is just unbearable.

 

check this out for example:

Some new stuff

 

 

 

 

 

Link https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63672348/Feb%202017%20Pack.zip

Quoted straight from one of the problematic threads, I replaced the username with "that guy".

[eezstreet]

I think we should add prefixes to the WIP forum that state what the content contains: Original Content, Kitbashes, Ports and Kitbashes/Ports. As a general guideline the following should be a thing:

1. Provide download links to anything made along with a preview image

2. Use one of the prefixes on your post so people know what to expect.

3. Tag your post with the type of content that's in it: Maps, Skins, ...

4. (optional) If your thread has an important Star Wars character in it, add a tag for that. Example: Plo-Koon, Jango Fett, etc

 

Threads that don't meet this criteria can be locked. But idk about that.

 

Also, a well-crafted list of Star Wars characters (I think Barricade did this, or started this?) could help as well.

[Barricade24]

I think we should add prefixes to the WIP forum that state what the content contains: Original Content, Kitbashes, Ports and Kitbashes/Ports. As a general guideline the following should be a thing:

1. Provide download links to anything made along with a preview image

2. Use one of the prefixes on your post so people know what to expect.

3. Tag your post with the type of content that's in it: Maps, Skins, ...

4. (optional) If your thread has an important Star Wars character in it, add a tag for that. Example: Plo-Koon, Jango Fett, etc

 

Threads that don't meet this criteria can be locked. But idk about that.

 

Also, a well-crafted list of Star Wars characters (I think Barricade did this, or started this?) could help as well.

Yep I have one started. Isn't been updated in awhile, but there's a good chunk of stuff in there.

[Jeff]

Just ban them, I only posted stuff because I figured people wanted obscure stuff. I never tagged anything because most of it is only playable in MP and the models aren't complete. It's really just stuff I made for a personal mod and figured I'd share it. @@AshuraDX why change the name on your post? If you have an issue with something I've done just call me on it. I'm not one to take offence. To those complaining for lack of tags and what not, I'm not going to spend the next week of my life going back through a thread that is 3 years old, to tag everything. It does seem like this is a personal attack on me, just wish someone would've said something in a PM or in my thread rather than call me out in a thread.   

[AshuraDX]

Just ban them, I only posted stuff because I figured people wanted obscure stuff. I never tagged anything because most of it is only playable in MP and the models aren't complete. It's really just stuff I made for a personal mod and figured I'd share it. @@AshuraDX why change the name on your post? If you have an issue with something I've done just call me on it. I'm not one to take offence. To those complaining for lack of tags and what not, I'm not going to spend the next week of my life going back through a thread that is 3 years old, to tag everything. It does seem like this is a personal attack on me, just wish someone would've said something in a PM or in my thread rather than call me out in a thread.

I do not have a problem with you, nor was that post a personal attack on you. I removed your nametag from it to avoid a direct accusation of a single user. I wanted a bare example of the "bad form" that is responsible for this issue. I could have taken a post from a different WIP thread. And infact not all of your posts in youre thread are like this, some are tagged or atleast partially tagged.

And that you don't like the idea of going back through a 3 year old WIP Thread is understandable. But maybe you could write a quick list based on the files uploaded to your dropbox, with a short content description and the appropiate link, then put that in a new thread while the old one get's locked?

[Jeff]

I do not have a problem with you, nor was that post a personal attack on you. I removed your nametag from it to avoid a direct accusation of a single user. I wanted a bare example of the "bad form" that is responsible for this issue. I could have taken a post from a different WIP thread. And infact not all of your posts in youre thread are like this, some are tagged or atleast partially tagged.

And that you don't like the idea of going back through a 3 year old WIP Thread is understandable. But maybe you could write a quick list based on the files uploaded to your dropbox, with a short content description and the appropiate link, then put that in a new thread while the old one get's locked?

 

I guess I just prefer to be told if what I'm doing is a problem, not finding it in a thread, but that's just me. This thread is the first I've heard of this being an issue. I agree with you that the thread is a mess, I'm not an organized person in general.    The thread isn't worth keeping up if it bothers people. 

[Circa]

Well, I noticed you were kinda the first person to use that format @@Jeff, which I understand your reasoning. You were pumping out frankensteined models like it was literally your job, and you always posted with the attitude that you're making these, but people can have them if they want. Makes sense. But others seemed to catch on to that format, hence the issue. Even people that only have a handful of mods that they're spending weeks on (rightly so) are hidden in a larger thread.

 

I suppose banning them isn't the best option, but enforcing rules for them could work. I'd probably give Jeff a free pass simply because his thread is the largest, with the most links. Although I seem to remember a lot of them being in big packs, so maybe link the packs or a dropbox folder or something?

 

Either way though, I think separate threads for projects should be advised unless the user feels it's more sensible to use one. And if they feel that way, require them to keep it organized.

[Noodle]

I have no issues with long WIP threads. It shows how a project evolves through time and also allows you to recieve criticism for the things you're currently developing if it's a long project like my own or Langerd's. It's very different to develop a serie of inter-connected maps than releasing small models that don't take that much time to create. 

 

I think the issue should be related to the fact that the forum is used as a place to publish models that wouldn't be accepted on this page according to our current guidelines. I don't think it's okay for people to release all their content on their WIP page if they know it won't be accepted as an official release here. The WIP threads should be used to show a work in progress, not as a space to exclusively release your content. 

[Circa]

I have no issues with long WIP threads. It shows how a project evolves through time and also allows you to recieve criticism for the things you're currently developing if it's a long project like my own or Langerd's. It's very different to develop a serie of inter-connected maps than releasing small models that don't take that much time to create. 

 

I think the issue should be related to the fact that the forum is used as a place to publish models that wouldn't be accepted on this page according to our current guidelines. I don't think it's okay for people to release all their content on their WIP page if they know it won't be accepted as an official release here. The WIP threads should be used to show a work in progress, not as a space to exclusively release your content.

 

Its not about long WIP threads in general. If its a thread about one project with things related to that one project, that's fine. That's what it should be. This is about huge threads, some the biggest on the forum, with just random stuff people are making, unrelated to each other.

 

On your second point, the forum is called WIPs, Teasers, and Releases. People can use it for releases, its been that way since the beginning. I guess the issue is people want them to be tagged as such.

[Teancum]

I would agree that this can get confusing. Both types of individuals -- kitbashers and scratch builders -- want their stuff to be very visible. I like @@AshuraDX 's suggestion, and we do something similar at MarvelMods. The first post is a sort of "hub post" that, at minimum, has links to the individual other posts where downloads are. More organized members have icons, etc to make things easier. That way if something is deemed either not ready for the downloads section or ineligible there's not a log of digging to do. You just say "Check Jeff's WIP thread" and they go to the first post. Done.

 

http://marvelmods.com/forum/index.php/topic,8049.0.html

 

 

*EDIT*

Maybe I'm just reading things wrong, but it feels like there's a disdain among some for kitbashers. Why is that such a bad thing? (not speaking of this thread specifically) I have tons of respect for those with the patience and talent to scratch build, but at the same time if I can build an application by not having to write all my code from scratch that's what I'd do. To me models are no different. I don't have the time to scratch model, learn to create believable textures, etc. But I can put a Gran's head on the human male body and have myself a species.

[eezstreet]

I would agree that this can get confusing. Both types of individuals -- kitbashers and scratch builders -- want their stuff to be very visible. I like @@AshuraDX 's suggestion, and we do something similar at MarvelMods. The first post is a sort of "hub post" that, at minimum, has links to the individual other posts where downloads are. More organized members have icons, etc to make things easier. That way if something is deemed either not ready for the downloads section or ineligible there's not a log of digging to do. You just say "Check Jeff's WIP thread" and they go to the first post. Done.

 

http://marvelmods.com/forum/index.php/topic,8049.0.html

 

 

*EDIT*

Maybe I'm just reading things wrong, but it feels like there's a disdain among some for kitbashers. Why is that such a bad thing? (not speaking of this thread specifically) I have tons of respect for those with the patience and talent to scratch build, but at the same time if I can build an application by not having to write all my code from scratch that's what I'd do. To me models are no different. I don't have the time to scratch model, learn to create believable textures, etc. But I can put a Gran's head on the human male body and have myself a species.

The disdain is because these parts are often taken from other models (or games) without permission and often there are no credits given to the original creators. For the most part, I agree with you. Making a from-scratch model is not necessary for a large project.

 

It's especially obnoxious when people are fighting over "stolen" kitbashes or whose kitbashes are better and we moderators have to police it. There's a certain lack of presence of mind here. You didn't make any of that! How can someone have stolen your content when it wasn't yours to steal?

[minilogoguy18]

^This.

 

They're not really WIP threads, there's no works in progress being shown, just a new kitbash every page or so.

[Teancum]

That actually makes it crystal clear. That's a valid reason I can get behind.