Getting JA's NPC AI on par with JK2's?

[Dusty]

So, the obvious issue with JA's NPCs is that the maps aren't waypointed nearly as well as in JK2, so NPCs seem less dynamic and smart and more stoic and not smart.

 

Is there anything that can be done AI-wise to even things out a little? Like for example, if we let JA NPCs go outside the waypoint system a little more; example, they are allowed to stray up to 70 game units from the nearest waypoint pathway, sort of like how Jedi ignore waypoints?

 

 

Anyone smarter than me *cough* @@eezstreet *cough* have any thoughts or ideas?

[mrwonko]

Why not simply place more waypoints?

 

Pretty sure OpenJK added the option of easily loading additional entities from a separate file.

[NumberWan]

I don't think movement is of the greatest issues with NPCs' AI. I am speaking not front he point of a Player here, but rather as a modded. When you work with NPCs in GtkRadiant and outside of it, you have to deal with lots of things, regarding their behavior. When you make a room, you have to think, how this room will be perceived by the primitive system of "analyzing" the environment by other characters. A mere table can be a problem for an NPC to shoot you the Player. In some cases the NPC can be killed with a blaster, but they won't shoot, because the "table" or a crate are too high. In some cases they can't jump over seemingly simple objects, which aren't too high.

 

Movement itself is also a problem, and though JA or JO doesn't exactly reveal this in their classic locations, this is a problem, that can arise, when you make a crowdy place in your own mod. More waypoints do help in most cases, but it doesn't prevent NPCs from getting stuck, if they approach each other from opposite sides. In most cases their "resolving" the path looks simply weird, in worse situations they are stuck and don't move.

[Asgarath83]

Try to place not connected point_combat inside the waypoint grid into strategical points. Shooter Npcs love to place theirself into point_combat position for shoot the players.

if you place POINT_COMBAT outside of waypoint grid, but however close to the waypoint, enemy will try to reach and use as point for shooting you. place this points into strategical parts of the path

i have a swamp map in a my mod with thousand of jungle trees (2000 trees into the Map O.o )  and a biiig waypoint net and combat point net between the trees. that works. npc are lot smarter and they shoots and cover and escape in a good way. also, making ambush by the backs of the trees.

[NumberWan]

It was always funny, that NPCs could see you through the bushes, but if you place invisible brushes there, they will not. At least this logic works!

 

As for waypoints - I never connected point_combat with waypoints, but placed them close enough for the NPCs to reach. I can't remember, but waypoints don't seem to have commands, like for the NPCs to crouch at certain places.

[Dusty]

I remember having this conversation partially before with Eez. He said the main differences between JK2 and JA npcs were these 2 things:

 

- JK2 maps are "waypointed" much better than JA maps

- certain portions of the JA NPC code from JK2 are commented out

[Cerez]

Pretty sure OpenJK added the option of easily loading additional entities from a separate file.

Sorry to take this slightly off-topic, but is this true? This would be extremely useful for cinematic scripting! How can this be accomplished, @@mrwonko?

[mrwonko]

Sorry to take this slightly off-topic, but is this true? This would be extremely useful for cinematic scripting! How can this be accomplished, @@mrwonko?

According to the Changelog:

 

Added ability to substitute BSP entities with ones from an external .ent file when loading a map (for easier entity modding)

Apparently multiplayer only?

[Dusty]

Multiplayer only? Aww...

[UniqueOne]

If you are talking about MP here, in warzone a while back I experimented with adding the bot waypoints to the NPC nav system (in warzone, we auto generate waypoints, but the same code would add normal ones the same way if we used them) .

 

I found the nav system way too slow with the numbers of waypoints our system uses (and we use our own faster pathfinding anyway), but this code is easy added to any mod - and if it was just adding normal JKA waypoint lists, speed wouldn't be an issue.

 

The code to do it is here:

https://github.com/Stoiss/Rend2/blob/rend2/codemp/game/ai_dominance_wpnav.c#L501

 

If you are not doing this for MP, I guess you could waypoint the map in MP, let it save the .nav file, then load it in SP. I think SP loads .nav file, right?

[Cerez]

Multiplayer only? Aww...

Nope. @@ensiform implemented it into SP as well. (Thank you!!!) (More details here.)

 

On topic, JKA's NPC AI was criticised from the first moment the game came out, and it was never really up to par -- which is a shame, considering a huge part of the gaming experience in JKA is reliant on NPC and bot AI.

 

The AI was criticized by PC Gamer UK as "laughable"; "Every encounter you have is filled with people too stupid to realise that running away or taking some sort of cover would be the best option. [Jedi Academy] requires little to no skill to play through." This opinion was echoed by GameSpot: "Stormtroopers usually just stand there shooting away at you [...] Dark Jedi rush at you, even after watching four of their brethren plummet to a horrible death. Occasionally, you'll see an enemy accidentally commit suicide by falling off a cliff or falling into lava, enemies will not even dive for cover or try and throw it back if you throw an uncooked thermal detonator at them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Jedi_Knight:_Jedi_Academy

 

It really would be good for (an) experienced coder(s) to sit down an rewrite the NPC behaviour to something a little less predictable, and a little more intelligent and interactive.

[eezstreet]

1. Just because the .ent file addition was done for MP doesn't mean it can't be done for SP just as easily.

2. The waypoint system in JK2 is actually also different as well. There are different entities that are used for the waypointing, among other things.

3. There is no "code that is commented out" in regards to JA AI.

4. Reborn/saberuser AI got nerfed though. I think this would require the most work as duellists don't use waypoints at all.

5. Now granted, if you did waypoint the JA maps properly, that would probably eliminate 90% of the problem things (mostly not using cover, etc). But there are a few small things I guess which could make the AI more challenging: having them pick up weapons which are stronger (I've done this already in JK:E), making them dive out of the way when thermals/repeater alt is used (they do run when a thermal is thrown in JK2) and having them run away when someone with a saber gets close. Also some minor tweaks to the firing. The repeater burst is silly.

6. Note: Padawan/Jedi difficulty should not be used as a measure of how "dumb" the AI actually is. It's actually quite smart on the higher difficulties of JK2. It's dumbed down on purpose on the lower difficulties to make them easier.

[ensiform]

It was done for SP already since... either last month or october...

The nav system in JA is not worse than JK2.  (Not talking about MP)  AI behaviors may be though but that's different.  Don't forget JKA was rushed out the door and then never really worked on again much so...

No comments

Probably they did because they were appealing to wider audience with JKA.

I disagree with the idea of waypointing better.  Just replace waypoints with some kind of navmesh and recast to avoid waypoints all together.

JM difficulty is still a lot more difficult in JK2 than JKA though I think for various reasons.

 

 

PS I do think its ultra stupid that the Jedi AI are basically perfect when it comes to projectiles on higher difficulty EVEN throwables.  You could be two inches from their face and they can still manage to push shit while also doing 3 other things.  Tavion being able to do that is one thing, but all the enemy Jedi AI? ...

 

Also the reports about criticism apply to JK2 as well.  Its not like the AI changed that drastically.  Also, there are certain limitations (at least at the time).  And stormtroopers are clones after all...  The jedi enemies WILL use force push > 85-100% of the time on JK or JM so I don't know what this is about.  Its not like the JK2 non-Jedi enemies would do this either so they're not even comparing games and this is useless criticism about the game.

[Cerez]

Well, if we're talking about improving on the original game and its gameplay, I don't think it is useless criticism. Personally, I would love to see a revamped and improved AI in JKA. It would refresh the game experience, and increase the fun factor.

[Futuza]

Sorry, just to clarify are we talking npcs or bots?

[Langerd]

Sorry, just to clarify are we talking npcs or bots?

I think both but the npc's in most part :/

 

I also find out that in jk2 stormtroopers are very hard to beat specially at the beginning. They are running , crouching and even running and shooting at the same time!!!

Rodians though are amazing snipers in both games. Rodians with blasters used the burst fire (alt fire) and they could do a lot of damage if they aim well

Also i remember two stcommanders in the cairn deck's elevators. These guys were shooting alt fire repeaters at You from above :/

 

So even if the alt fire is removed from all npc's in the Jasp it can be add with the script (dont know about the codes.. i dont know anything about them)

And Jk goes with the cheap difficult thing... By making npc's health bigger (human_merc for example... these guys needs 3-5 headshots to die..)

And sometimes the health meter is messed up... Rebornmaster has less health than reborn_new which is strange right? O.o

 

Well this game seemed rushed and unfinished in many ways. But they made an awesome work with the animations,saber combat etc.

(still i always wanted better ragdoll phisycs because Jka bodies are like sheets of paper )

[Aldro Koon]

I despise how in MP, stormtroopers/gunners wont fire at you sometimes unless you change from saber to melee. Once you switch back to saber, they stop. As if they fear your blade lol, anyone know why this happens?

[Archangel35757]

I despise how in MP, stormtroopers/gunners wont fire at you sometimes unless you change from saber to melee. Once you switch back to saber, they stop. As if they fear your blade lol, anyone know why this happens?

Maybe they are smarter than you think and they just don't want their blaster bolts reflected back at them from the Saber blade

[Fuse294]

The 'Stormtrooper won't shoot' thing is a greater mystery than the meaning of life.

[Maksman]

In JA MP I think they use JK2 ai at least for the Jedi/Sith npcs that's what I miss about JK2 Reborn Jumping around corners chasing you from long distances on non naved maps aka all MP maps and they also jump after being push away while jumping. It was awsome.

[eezstreet]

(That's because it is the same AI. There's no differences between the games other than small things/the waypointing)