Cerez

A little more insight into Rogue One character development (or total lack of) and (major) storytelling flaws (WARNING: major spoilers ahead!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3gf6qyAHOw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAdo3dGYd1E

You're going to have to give me something to work with. Did you walk through all the steps in sequence? Have you encountered any errors along the way? I have this setup running on OpenJK, so you should be able to get it working, too. (Note that the "seta" commands are "seta", not "set", and that you need "helpusobi 1" applied before entering the new settings in SP.)

Please, please, please, pretty please!!! Don't tell me this project is still sitting on your hard drive, or worse! If need be, I'll take over and weight it! We need this! I need it!!! XD (Waited 12 years for it...)

Make sure you enable cheats (advanced changes) before entering the commands in the console. Have you followed this tutorial? https://jkhub.org/tutorials/article/175-model-dismemberment-realistic-lightsaber-combat/

This is off topic, but has anyone tried running JKA on a Raspberry Pi? Would love to see a video of it.

Hmm... Telling more would mean describing very little from the character's point of view. Telling is what Rogue One did, technically speaking -- a whole bunch of events played out without due emotional, or character involvement. Character dialogue is usually not telling, it's depth of story. In literature, this is telling: And this is showing: Or in the case of use of dialogue: Telling: Showing: Source: http://www.mariavsnyder.com/advice/showvstell.php

Warning: (Major) spoilers! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJgfxlgUIZY Also, warning: This review will offend your sensibilities... or shake some sense into you, and cure you from being desensitised...? Can't remember which one, now... XD

Guys, I'm being personally assaulted here for expressing my views, like everyone else. This is not okay. If you don't like it, move on. Stop attacking me and my views, and stop aggressively ganging up on one person for having a different viewpoint. @@eezstreet, it seems to me we need additional rules for the board that disallow real life political and religious discussions -- personal views where there is no real common ground, and that can allow certain members to wrongfully accuse others from their own viewpoint, and that can easily flare up into flame wars. I've been trying to keep this civil, but it is extremely hard, and I doubt many others could do what I have done here, in my place. Also, can we please lock this thread? I have no desire for it getting out of hand, and there seems to be no nice and useful input anymore, only personal attacks. This was not my purpose for creating this thread. I wanted to have an open discussion about what people perceive to be the Jedi way, not turn this into a discussion and criticism of my personal beliefs. And @@Ping, and @@Boothand, I will say that I don't appreciate what you've done here at all. Polarising and twisting my every word in united attacks on my views, constant attempts to discredit without providing equal reference yourselves, and turning this thread from a peaceful thread on people's viewpoints to a sole criticism of my own views was an ugly, hostile, and unfair thing to do. And all this during Christmas! It is obvious you seem to have something personal against me, and not just my views. Do not expect that I will converse with you in the future, and that your comments will be noted anywhere on this board.

Just because there is no universal good and bad does not mean that people do not perceive things individually good or bad. This is how what I said makes sense. If you wrong others, do not expect that they will not retaliate in return. There is a natural order to things that lies beyond good and bad. Let me turn this around: What gives you the right to call my beliefs invalid? I'm entitled to them, just as anyone. If you, personally, can't see the connection between the textual references I've provided and my understanding of them, that doesn't mean my beliefs and perspective are invalid. It may mean that you need to acquire further knowledge and variety in perspective to understand them, or simply that your own views and experiences are so different that you cannot relate to my perspective. I think the reason you see my arguments as contradictory is because you perceive everything in the world to have value from the perspective of right and wrong. As I've explained to you earlier, I don't believe this is the case. Just because there is no universal right and wrong does not mean that creatures of this world cannot exist in mutual dynamics and harmony, and that there are no rules to life. I see this is as a valid point. If the Gray Jedi believe in a "good", it would be the dynamic balance between the Light and the Dark Side. However, in this case the "bad" does not have the same weight as for the Jedi or the Sith. As a galaxy dominated by either extreme (i.e. out of balance) would not be something that causes too much grief to a Gray Jedi Knight, as they are impartial in the conflict, and they understand that the balance will return on its own in time.

The balance in the Force is not the "absolute good" from the Gray Jedi perspective, it simply exists, and it defines the state of our lives. It is the Jedi Order and the Sith Order who believe that restoring balance to the Force from their own perspectives is doing an absolute good. The role of the Gray Jedi Knight is to keep to the balance between the Light and the Dark Side, ultimately succumbing to neither. We exist to help keep this dynamic balance in the Force flowing because we understand that life is at its most fruitful, and at its best when there is Light and there is Darkness -- for all creatures of the universe. We don't recognise an ultimate good on either side of the Jedi-Sith, Light and Dark Side war. This is an open discussion, and I have no reason to challenge your beliefs. As I've said earlier, I believe this perspective makes you a proper Jedi of the Order -- the belief that good will triumph over evil, and that evil exists. The topic's question is "What does it mean to be a great Jedi?", not why would one be a Gray Jedi. Please note that this is not a topic about me, personally, altough I do believe I've explained in detail my personal point of view, and attraction to the Gray Jedi way. There is no point in trying to discredit me, @@Boothand, @@Ping, as what I've said I've based on direct evidence and my personal interpretation from official dialogues in the Star Wars sources we have about Gray Jedi. You are free to have your own point of views on this topic, but please don't claim that my own are invalid. It would be nice if you could back up your views with source evidence as well (so I'm not the only one)... I would like it if we drifted the topic's theme away from a focus on Gray Jedi, and back to the general perspective people have on what it means to be a Jedi. I will answer your questions as they pertain to my personal understanding of the Gray Jedi way: 1. This is right. Every individual is responsible for their own action, and the effects of their own actions (which are neither "good" nor "bad" in the ultimate sense, but a mixture of both). 2. Every Jedi feels the flow of the Force, and every Gray Jedi is aware of the balance between the Dark and the Light Side. What they do with that knowledge is at their own discretion. 3. None of your efforts will make the scale topple over. The state of the scale affects your life as it pertains to now, and your future. Whether a Gray Jedi chooses to help change the current state, or is content to hide away and exclude themselves from the current state of the galaxy, nature will not crumble, and things will balance themselves out eventually. The only thing that is truly affected by our actions are our own lives. Good will never triumph over evil, and evil will never triumph over good, truly. They are essential to humanity, and unseparably connected to one another. 4. If the proper Jedi way defines the state of the galaxy, I believe people will suffer just as much as if the Sith way were defining the state, yes. We haven't seen too many examples of this in Star Wars so far -- the focus has been on evil (from the Jedi Order's perspective) coming out triumphant, and stopping it from doing so. However, you can see glimpses of the traditional Jedi ways crumbling when faced with taking a side and getting involved in the happenings of the Clone Wars. The Jedi Council's unwillingness to accept that where there is Light there is Darkness in their actions, and in a person is what makes ultimately the Order weaken and crumble from the inside with the fall of the Chosen One, and their fight against the Dark Side cause suffering to countless Separatist civilians. 5. I was not talking in absolutes -- I'm nor Jedi, nor Sith! A period of peace is valuable often, but conflict (not necessarily the most extreme form of it, war) is just as valuable. 6. I have never said that Gray Jedi are necessary for anything. No individual living creature is necessary to the Force, but we are all a part of it. I was merely explaining what a Gray Jedi may choose to do to try and influence the state of the galaxy, at their discretion, because you've asked me, specifically. 7. Making an impact on another culture as an outsider, without knowing or respecting that culture is wrong, yes. I do believe this. Do not do unto others what you would not have done to you. And if you do so, do not expect that it will not come back to bite you in the ass. You don't know this. Just because it hasn't happened in a drastic way so far doesn't mean it never will... If the Sith Order and the Dark Side users were vanquished, it might very well happen. We recognise that a galaxy dominated by the Sith would be out of balance, but why do most of us not see the same for the Jedi? Is their Code any less extreme in its definition? Are their people any less flawed? These are questions I would put to you as a Gray Jedi. Also, not every Jedi of the Order would agree with your perspective here. Some believe that it is not the Code that is the problem, but the flawed people who interpret it. I believe it can. It can very much slow down human progress, and make us forget the values of conflict. Peace is not desirable in a world where everything is stale, and there is very little progress. Where people grow bored of not being challenged. You grow weakest when you are at constant peace. It is through conflict that you gain abilities that better your chance for survival, and give you values that define your sense of self.

Regarding the Gray Jedi being close to the Jedi Order: About "right" and "wrong": The same as Jolee demonstrates throughout his talks with Darth Revan, I've claimed that for a Gray Jedi Knight there is a "right" and "wrong" only for the individual, from their perspective. The universe doesn't deal in absolutes, and two Gray Jedi Knights may disagree completely on what they perceive to be right and wrong. For instance, one Gray Jedi may perceive that allowing war to rage between two factions is good, and the right thing to do, while the other may perceive that war has never helped, and choose to act to bring peace between the two factions. Whatever their choice in right or wrong, they are acting on their own behalf, as individuals. What makes a Jedi of the Order a Jedi is that they are Jedi above being an individual with their own, individual feelings and motives. Gray Jedi recognise that nothing in the universe is flawless, or unchanging, and that nothing in the universe is truly "right" or "wrong" -- not "good" or "evil" -- but everything just "is". Balance is between Light and Dark, "right" and "wrong", good and evil. Their own choices are just that -- their own choices. In contrast, the Jedi Order and the Sith believe that their actions serve a higher purpose of "good", or "right", and that fighting against the opposite will bring peace. Note that no matter what path you take in KOTOR, whether Darth Revan turns to the Dark or the Light, Jolee tags along and does not try to stop him, merely advises him based on his own experiences. Furthermore, his alignment is not influenced by the party's (Revan's) path taken. Why do you think Jolee chose to accompany Darth Revan? In his own words: Does that sound like a righteous Jedi to you? One who tags along to see the outcome that impacts the fate of the galaxy, whether that end pushes things towards the Light or the Dark Side? Whether it causes casualties and suffering for millions? Does that sound like something that the Jedi Order would approve of? Finally, the official description from Wookiepedia for a Gray Jedi:

Hahaha! Found another one that's very much relevant to this discussion: "The problem with self-righteous folk is they think they're more right than everyone else." ~ Jolee Bindo

Eesh... you guys are really making me write... >.<' I don't appreciate the aggressive jab, but okay... let's look to the source material, then: I'm sure you can read between the lines, but his final response talks to this, answering your question pretty much directly. The is no "right" and "wrong", there just "is". The actions of people and their views are ultimately insignificant to the balance of the Force (in the Gray Jedi perspective). Is there a universal right and wrong in the many faces of the natural world? Do you need to know that something is "right" in order to feel if it is part of the natural balance? Can you be an individual, living and acting independently, and still be part of a larger whole? Does being right or wrong ultimately mean anything on the great scale? Or in Jolee's own words: "Sometimes swirling Force is just swirling Force. It gets all us old Jedis excited at our age so we go 'Oooo, destiny!'" Ask yourself by what right does the Jedi Order claim to know the truth about the balance of the Force. Or the Sith Order for that matter. Their beliefs, and their wisdom give them the power. Wisdom and knowledge acquired through the ages. Using the same principle, a Gray Jedi can know the balance just the same. It always comes from a personal perspective. It is interpreted by the person. But there is some universal truth in it that most Jedi and Sith recognise. When Jolee Bindo joined to tag along, and influenced Revan's growth, what right did he have to presume to know what is the right way for the Chosen One, and to interact? This is where you are narrowing your own perspective. Does only the "right" side deserve the right to exist? Can (what one perceives to be) the "wrong" not thrive and exist? How can one expect that others will respect their tradition and adopt their ways when they have disrespected others'? Does this not make one a tyrant? What you are effectively saying here is that just because one perceives (with their current knowledge and insight) that another's tradition is "wrong", they have the right to impose their own will upon the other people? Free speech is one thing; this is something completely different... Naturally, I recognise that saving human lives is important, but what you are saying here is that as an outsider one has the right to intervene in people's lives and impose control over their lives, which I do not agree with in the least. This shows a lack of respect for the people and their ways, and has nothing to do with their casualties -- the two are mutually exclusive. If a people choose to die for a cause, they have the right to do with their own(!) lives what they will. No outsider has the right to intervene in their lives and choices. How would you feel if your culture and traditions were invaded by a foreign power who perceives them to be wrong? In this instance, let's take that the current government (not democratic) was enforcing laws that did not allow for expression of emotions or attachments, for example. Where people were monitored night and day, and any show of passion or emotion would potentially label one as a criminal against the system with a potential for violence. This would be a Jedi ideals influenced totalitaristic form of government. The Jedi may not be directly involved in the happenings, but by their Code nothing would be wrong, and nothing could be changed -- and their sole presence and authority would strengthen this regime. A situation like that would call of Sith ideals to be introduced to the populace, and a little uprising to stir things up a bit, and bring life back into the lives of these people.

And @@Mizore, I concede your point. I believe this perspective makes you a proper Jedi of the Order. In many instances, it is this confident perspective and approach of the Jedi that has brought peace and balance to the galaxy. I've found an interesting illustration that relates to the balance in the Force, as most Gray Jedi perceive it:

This is exactly what Gray Jedi are, effectively. They are Jedi who have decided to take their own pathways, and understanding of the universe. This is also why there is no Gray Jedi Code -- each Gray Jedi acts on their own accord, to their own perception. The one thing they have in common is that they no longer follow either the Jedi or Sith Code, and instead choose their own pathways, somewhere in-between. If you seek belonging and guidance, you will not choose the path of a Gray Jedi Knight. To be perfectly clear, I am not, nor was I at any point, advocating that the Gray Jedi path is any better or worse than the Jedi or the Sith pathways. Gray Jedi are just as flawed in their independent ways. It is simply the pathway that lies closest to me, personally. Everything in (human) life is a matter of perspective. No-one can claim that their own perspective is above others in worth/value. To do so is to shut your eyes to the world of others, and to blindly follow your own views. What is "right" and what is "wrong" are subjective to your acquired values and up-bringing. There are only a handful of basic, primitive morals that all people of the world can agree on -- such as if you treat someone else with no respect, don't expect to be treated with respect in return. These are more in tune with human nature itself, and our natural behaviour. To claim that someone's well-established tradition, or culture is wrong because one perceives it so from their own, "rational" perspective, and to act upon that to attempt to change their culture as an outsider, at least in my honest opinion, is ignorant and arrogant behaviour. It shows no respect to others' views and experiences (perspectives). In history, this kind of behaviour has been commonly associated with religion-wide, nation-wide, and world-wide conflicts. If I felt that the people of a city were getting stale, and unhappy in their status quo, I would assist a rebel organisation in rising to power, and overthrowing the current leadership, for instance, so that the dynamic nature of the Force would flow again, and, ultimately, life would return to the people. Or if I perceived that the Jedi Order was gaining too much power and influence over the population of a planet, I would meet with the Jedi to challenge their power, and the right for their power in contrast to the balance in the Force. If they refused to listen, to show understanding, and to make a change, I might take my findings to well respected/feared Dark Jedi or Sith clans, and assist them in their goals to gain influence in that sector. With the same spirit, if the rivalry between a Sith and a Jedi was causing a disturbance in the Force, and life balance, for the habitants of a town, or planet, I would consult both factions and attempt to find a compromise to end that rivalry, or move it somewhere where it does not cause such disturbance, but perhaps aids in progress instead. But each Gray Jedi acts to their own impulses. There is no universal "right" or "wrong" in the Gray Jedi way. There is only the natural balance of the universe (the Force), and the individual within it as a part of it. Many Gray Jedi will not get along, and not share in their personal perspectives on different situations. The only common link they share is that, ultimately, they both care about the state of the universe, and are guardians of balance (i.e. they are both Jedi).

Mon Mothma -- at least she felt authentic... And it was interesting to see a younger version of her.

It is wrong to pretend to know what is right for others. You cannot know what is right for a person or a people without having lived with them, and gained an inner perspective on their lives. Even then, it is best to ask and to be respectful of their ways. Tradition usually stems from practical common sense, and therefore in most cases is useful. It is wrong to judge another people's sense of identity and tradition with your own perspective for the same reason as my point above. To enforce your own culture and view to someone else is not "creating harmony", but being oppressive.

Let me draw you a direct example: There are two tribes/people who have been at war with one another for centuries in an on-going rivalry fueled by passion and personal reasons/history. This on-going rivalry has helped produce superior technology, a rich culture filled with heroic tales, and able-bodied young people trained to fight for themselves and survive, perhaps even a pursuit for knowledge to conquer nature or the harsh elements the tribes are living under (to gain an upper hand in the conflict). The Jedi intervene, and in their "wise" ways end the conflict, forcing both sides to co-exist in mutual harmony. With this one action, imposed by a third party, the people of these two tribes may lose their sense of identity, have all their major progress halted, and be subjected to living in new, peaceful ways that are contrary to what they need to be strong for survival in their environment, and in the galaxy at large. What the Jedi perceive to be "justice" and "peace" isn't valuable to all people. This is clearly stated many times over the Clone Wars. Many have allied to the Separatist cause not because they wanted to do harm, or cause destruction, but because they'd experienced that the Jedi ways have done them no good at all. Sometimes it is best to let conflict, passion, even ignorance flourish (for a time), but this goes against the Jedi teachings. Personally, I perceive the Jedi philosophies are just as one-sided as that of the Sith. They are good extremes, valuable in opposition to one another, but if one side wins, and extinguishes the other, the galaxy will be drifted out of balance.