Diary of a mad man

dark_apprentice · January 28, 2019

@@AshuraDX Yes, you got it partially understood. Just to clarify does this mean, that people should only work their own fan artworks from scratch and not doing the same by using other author's material based on approvals or even sections of the certain game's EULA? Should you say that people should invest more in further improvement of their skills, after managing to successfully port a model or kitbash one, that doesn't crash up in the game instead of keeping a simple line of additional assets.

I am releasing finally my debut album 31-st of this month and after that I will have more time finally to give some lights on my fan movie and other projects. Cannot guarantee if I may give another chance at modeling and spent another couple of years to improve on that field sadly.

AshuraDX · January 28, 2019

@@dark_apprentice, got a link to the EULAs for the games yo uare talking about? And can you specify the exact passage you are referring to?

EDIT: I assume you are referring to this https://jkhub.org/topic/7857-updated-eula-regarding-porting-content/?do=findComment&comment=109519

more specifically, this section:

To the extent that we authorize you to create, post, upload, distribute, publicly display or publicly perform User Generated Content that requires the use of our copyrighted works, we grant you a non-exclusive license to create a derivative work using our copyrighted works as required for the purpose of creating the materials, provided that such license shall be conditioned upon your assignment to us of all rights in the work you create. If such rights are not assigned to us, your license to create derivative works using our copyrighted works shall be null and void.

Which leaves lots of room for interpretation, especially since "user generated content" is clearly defined at all.

This doesn't seem like a "take all the things you want" clause but more like a clause that allows people to stream their games, upload "let's plays", screenshots and such things. I'm not sure wether this applies to redistributing the game assets, in fact I highly doubt it. But I'm not a lawyer.

I still don't really understand what you mean, it feels like you are missing the point I made, I think we may be hitting a language barrier here.

dark_apprentice · January 29, 2019

No, that is not related to a language barrier. I am no lawyer myself to provide you with exact detailed evidence related to this or any other EULA.

Based on your opinion, I understand you are aiming to say something that will sound more like the following: JKHub and every single other SW Game related community should not tolerate any ported content from other authors/games, unless it is made from scratch from the artists.

I strongly disagree with you here, because if this was the case - there shouldn't be public, such as one of the biggest (if not The only) Facepunch forums. There are
quite a great amount of ported and extracted content which is used not only for fan artworks, movies - but even for providing new vibes of "life" to old games.

If the entire staff on this fan community is aiming to stay in the legal safe waters, I will understand it. I do hope that is sorted out and visible to the mass public that visits this website. Otherwise everyone is free to have their own opinion as one thing I learned from the saga - it is all about the point of view.

By all this I am not saying that "oh, no you should totally allow ports, I am not happy bla-bla-bla". Of course I understand all your concerns. Perhaps I was not able to express myself in the previous post well, as I was at work and may got distracted while answering.
I do not believe that it is rightful to steal something, no matter if it is ported, kitbashed or self made fan artwork (assuming that the owners of all those have at least approval to say a minimum of "Well, that is a part from "XYZ" thank you for your hard work"). What is bothering me more than this fact, is the other fact that another 4-th or 5-th user will re-upload that and claim it as their own.
In a simple example (Ashura makes an amazing lightsaber, Dark uses the saber to attach it over the belt of Vader with the permission and approval of Ashura to do so, later another person downloads that model of Vader (kitbashed/ported) with the self made saber by Ashura and re-uploads both of them claiming ownership of the entire work of art).

AshuraDX · January 29, 2019

Oh boy.

Yes, you completely missed my point, thank you for confirming that.

Let me show you what I mean:

Based on your opinion, I understand you are aiming to say something that will sound more like the following: JKHub and every single other SW Game related community should not tolerate any ported content from other authors/games, unless it is made from scratch from the artists.

Why do you believe that, when the first sentence in my post that started this debate goes completely against that assumption of yours?

Honestly, I don't care if you restrict yourself to porting stuff, it's fine if you want to do that - it's your decision.

I am completely indifferent to whether you port stuff or not, I'm offering feedback on the work people do with it. Feel free to question @@Asgarath83 or @@Tompa9 about it if you feel the need to.

My intent is for people to learn a new skill and have fun with that new skill. And in that case it does not matter whether it is rigging, modeling, texturing, painting, rock climbing or anything else I have a decent amount of knowledge about.

All I pointed out was that it''s hypocritical to take a model from someone else (like the company that owns the videogame said model is taken from), edit it and then get mad when someone takes your edit, edits it and posts it somewhere else.

As that is pretty much what you have done before. I will say that it has gotten better and you people state more clearly where the models you have taken came from.

But you still didn't ask for explicit permission to take the model out of its source media and share the files online, have you?

That Is everything I meant to say.

I don't know if you simply didn't read my post carefully, had trouble understanding what I said (the Language Barrier I was getting at, which you neglected) or just enjoy putting words in my mouth for the sake of having an argument.

I really don't know , but this is literally the same as what happened last year back on the MD2 Thread:

A single person didn't read my post properly and started an argument over porting that stretched over more than one page - which is unnecessary drama that could easily be prevented by simply reading things more carefully.

Thank you.

RAILBACK · January 29, 2019

Proper communication is the key to many misinterpretations. Whether here or at home.

dark_apprentice · January 29, 2019

Oh boy.

Yes, you completely missed my point, thank you for confirming that.
Let me show you what I mean:

Why do you believe that, when the first sentence in my post that started this debate goes completely against that assumption of yours?

I am completely indifferent to whether you port stuff or not, I'm offering feedback on the work people do with it. Feel free to question @@Asgarath83 or @@Tompa9 about it if you feel the need to.
My intent is for people to learn a new skill and have fun with that new skill. And in that case it does not matter whether it is rigging, modeling, texturing, painting, rock climbing or anything else I have a decent amount of knowledge about.

All I pointed out was that it''s hypocritical to take a model from someone else (like the company that owns the videogame said model is taken from), edit it and then get mad when someone takes your edit, edits it and posts it somewhere else.
As that is pretty much what you have done before. I will say that it has gotten better and you people state more clearly where the models you have taken came from.

But you still didn't ask for explicit permission to take the model out of its source media and share the files online, have you?

That Is everything I meant to say.

I don't know if you simply didn't read my post carefully, had trouble understanding what I said (the Language Barrier I was getting at, which you neglected) or just enjoy putting words in my mouth for the sake of having an argument.

I really don't know , but this is literally the same as what happened last year back on the MD2 Thread:
A single person didn't read my post properly and started an argument over porting that stretched over more than one page - which is unnecessary drama that could easily be prevented by simply reading things more carefully.

Thank you.

I have understand your point. Drama, flame wars or anything related to such misunderstanding is not my concern and not my goal. The above reply can be taken in two parts, one providing a real statement which I honor and respect and one, that is also confirming another misunderstanding from my first answer.

Small part of that I will quote below:

The main point was that the JKA world is dead since the past couple of years I was on a big pause until 2009 and since than I am back and active as much as possible, even though many of you who were older and more dedicated users in this forum or other forums in the past, you contributed a lot that is appreciated. As you very well know the mod request sections is constantly overloaded with request, many of them are duplicated. When the technologies and situations gave us the opportunity we took it and we improved in a field that many may not agree with, but it made us learn useful tricks and less time consuming, as speaking of the point that not every single person is willing to learn or capable to invest the time to (not referring to laziness and other lame excuses). So if we keep that in mind, respectively keep a side the point of view you shared above which I cannot deny - my point was simple:

I am very proud of what I have personally achieved and as mentioned in a previous statement, I am more than glad to get feedback from other more experienced modelers, when I really am working and needing to (given the fact that I am not active for the past year and a half). For example you may see or even ask @@The Punisher who was highly inspired by my nothing, but a crappy so called "Starkiller pack" as he is a huge fan of TFU - when he started he barely knew what Blender is and how to swap a head on another model, now he himself is one of the best artists I know in this forum even though he does not produce self made content from the complete zero.

About the rights - I may agree with you, but you have to remember that not the entire world is based on the german principals and strict laws (unfortunately). If I download a Luke model from Force Arena / EA Games Battlefront provided over at facepunch forums, should I don't ask the author if he have the permission to port it and share it in the visible mass public with the approval of the official developers. If that was against the rules I highly doubt this site would have made it all this time on the internet, all should have been banned, blocked and they would have been sued.

I remember the lame flaming wars and arguments on the MD2 Remastered, if you really see things this way for this conversation I can only feel sorry, again this has nothing to do with the languages I can say it in german for you if that might be the problem as it's my better language than english and still I don't see how it will change from my point of view.

What I would do however, I will honor your opinion and shake a hand virtually with you.

Tschüss.

AshuraDX · January 30, 2019

@@dark_apprentice

Everyone seems to think of me as the stereotypical german ^^U

The laws in regards to sharing copyright protected files are less than clear all around the globe from what I know, including germany.

The general gist seems to be that the uploader of copyright protected content is the one that makes himself subject to possible legal actions by the copyright owner. I'm not saying that it will happen, just that it would be possible.

https://venturebeat.com/2017/05/27/the-emerging-legal-battle-over-video-game-streaming-rights/

This is what I think that EULA section is meant to mean. It permits users to upload/stream game footage or screenshots and make fanart of the characters depicted in the media without having to fear that the developer sues them or issues a DMCA claim against them.

I can answer why forums like facepunch are still around after all this time.

The site itself is not responsible for what users post and as such it is difficult to make them accountable for that, this would change if the site hosted the copyright protected files themselves, but afaik facepunch do.

The copyright owners can take legal action against the one that uploaded the file and the ones that may have shared the link elsewhere, but they can't really do much against the platforms the link was shared on.

Which is exactly why we don't accept submissions that contain copyright protected assets in our files section, as we'd then lose the shield that protects JKHub as a site from legal countermeasures.

They can force us to remove the posted links, but I don't know whether we have to comply when they request us to hand out the private data from the user that posted the link, which may include things like your e-mail address, IP, date of birth and whatever else that might not already be publicly visible on the users profile page that could be used to identify the user and hold him/her accountable for the committed copyright violation.

I also want to let you know that I don't feel about this the same way as I did with that MD2 Flame War, I was just mentioning that this infact very civilised discussion has been kicked off by similiar causes as the aforementioned flame war.

On the note of languages, neither of us speaks/writes perfect English (which is not to be expected) and as such, miscommunication like what we experienced here can happen rather quickly.

I think we should stick with english for the sake of getting more practice, getting more comfortable with the language and as such improve our communication in this language.

All in all I'll gladly answer your virtual hand shake with an equal honoring of your opinion, which isn't too different from mine after all.

Asgarath83 · January 30, 2019

mmm i'm missing something??? O.o someone call me...

well i'm pretty busy today for answer decently but i see a little and strong change of view regard remaking or rebooting reedint and re ditribuction of porting stuff...

oh well man... is a complicated stuff...

recently i was talking with a friend about the copyrights.

now i wanna make a game with my modding skills but i have considered also all copyright issues.. and intellectual properties, and porting etc etc etc problems.

starting for point:

1 the source code...

for what i now JKA source code and Openjk now are under GNU licences so techically ... with a big amount of works and code editing should be possible also to use JKA code as base for build a code for a commercial new game.

BUT... on the code is a disclaimer about that pretty clear. is possible to edit, distribuite etc the source code. just... credits that original code is from raven and you works build stuff on raven and lucas arts stuff. So not tell "oh i write all this code. is mine and i have intellettual propertries on that and right. cause is not true. THIS is the true stolen, i guess."

Internet is based on free share of contains. if someone is hosted on web technically become world common patrimonium.

But...obvious... there are laws and rights, as all humans stuff.

if you are making something of privates for your own use, or for distribuite with few loyalty friend, no one curse or blame or persecute youb for using porting stuff or kitbashing or frankensteining of other artist, i guess.

the trouble is when some one make a distribution of ported stuff, from a company or a modder or another artist, claim as his own creation... i thinks that is correct and fine ever make credits and permissions to the ported stuff for credits the original job of other artistis. also if author tell "not edit thios model map \ until my permission" is a nice and smart thing ask ever to the author if you want freely publish and update on jkhub moddb or whatever site his work.

the things change if you want to make something of commercial. in that case, u need at least to tribute with credits all people from you get models, sounds, code, etc... and also give a royal % or eventual sells money cash.

mmm i'm italian my english is far from perfection. be patiente.

for what i see recently about copyrights well...https://www.wikihow.it/Comprare-i-Diritti-Cinematografici-di-un%27Opera i really hope there is apage on english aboiut that. exist something called "contract of options" or something like that. basically the owner of an oppera give the permission to another to use their opera and give a licence of use temporany the right on that in exchange of an amount of money and a % of royality about selling and distributiuon of stuff. yes there laws and copyright, and also, stolen a stuff can give a lot of trouble if the author discover that. also legal troubles.

but is also possible to find ever a solution or make a deal or a compromise that solve all. it's ever what does mature and reasonable peoples.

i'm an author of a science fiction solarpunk science fantasy saga into real life. i not sold out much book so i want to try to make a game on that using JKA as base for thart. but clearly i'll never did "i am the owner of JKA sourcer code, openjk etc." this make me sure a thief lol. obvious i ever credits the openjk source, all coder that create and allow the existance of open jk, lucas arts itself for created jka game etc etc.

if i use a map, i sure credit author, but i want to make my map itself instead of use map of others. there is a way to make map more fastly on traditional radiant brushes working. well a map is not a rigid model. is a bunch of brushes and patches.

Can be splitted into his prefab partts. architectonic elements, grouhnds, doors, patches, simple forms... saved into other projects as func_groups and retextured and changed geometries. the entire map is a production of a modder.

if you use an entire map and share that hosting into a site you need at least to tell "ehy i not did this make, is a works of "moddername" and i edit that and that and this.

well however, what i means is that for my own... i plans to use prefabs parts brushes for builds my enviroments, and make terrains by myself. also, is again experimental but thewre is a way to convert models from 3d studio max into brushes and patchs map prefabs, that can be used as func_group and architectural elements. if this is used into the correct way can help to build maps , exactly in a way like works the "foundtry system" level build of mmorpg like neverwinrer online.

about copyright... i checked a lot of stuff cause obvious... i'm not a modeler and i need to creating my models by myself .. or however, if a portt something, i need ever to take on mind the permissions about that.

cause i now also how to ports on 3d max animations and rigged model of not humanoi sdtuff of a mmmorg.that tecnically can easy be ported into JKA... well i checked the rights and copyright term of this free mmorpg.

and they told "is possible to use, edit, share the parts of this software but all the rights on ported material are ours."

about spore instead.-.. spore should be an amazing game for sculpt creatures, monsters, building, vehicles and starship but is restricted on a EULA that forced to use spore creation only inside spore itself... So this is the more problematic stuff. also retexturing building etc... once time you export as collada or 3dr with 3d ripper and get into blender on max and you can rig etc with jka skeleton or whatevcer.., here can give you troubles... and also, spore is HD high polyshed stuff that blow up the restriction of old JKA engine. LOL... so is not exactly the best way.

The more smart thing, at this point, is to use the spore primitive as stamp and build a new geometry around that with the tools of 3d max 2010. and totally remake uvmapping and textures... so basically you make your own primitive arm tail, leg, claw etc from a 3d scrath of a previous model.

there is also another way however...

there are many site on web, as opengameart, free3d, or turbosquid or blendswap. they sells models, but they share also many free stuff. architecture, creatures, models. there is a Ton of free stuff on these site. Also the CC models and stuff scattered on web. creative commmon licenced stuff can be used free and need just to credits the authors. i am using at moment an asset of body parts of a site ful a CC stuff. i'm making unwrapping of all stuff, cause is without uvmapping and with not texutre.

this is useful for kitbashing and building the characters of my opera and help me to give a 3d appereance of my races.

oh well... i really go over and turn around the central point.

for be short...

porting? well is the essence itself of web at the end... but you need ever to be respectul from the provenience of ported material. on the original author, modder, developers, modder or software house.

if you take for your personal use, you can do whaterver you think. if you share into web. well... credits ever the author of pieces that you use for kitbashings, or told that original models are from "..." this is what i think is the better way. if you want to host here on JKHUB be sure to have permission of original modders. is a clear sentence that you need to subscrive when hosting stuff here.

only, never claim as yourself the works of others.

in case of my saga i can tell that is MINE the history, the lore, the races, the worlds.

but is i use a ported models for make one of my creatures... for example an Hypopode of a vulcanic world,.. i cannot tell "i did this my hand!" i'll tell "this is a 3d rapresentation of an hypopode of my opera using 3d model. origjnal models is of Bblabla... piece is of blablablabla... texturing for kindness and concession of blablablabla." etc etc etc.

i think this should be the more nice and smart and correct way to use porting stuff.

well now i need to go. have a nice day men!

Tompa9 · January 30, 2019

All I can add is that @@AshuraDX doesn't mind if something is ported or it is model from scratch. His intentions are always really simple - to help people with modelling/modding skills or to improve their presentation (like in Movie Duels case). In recent weeks he has helped me a lot with understanding weights on models even I edited ports. So I can confirm that he is telling you truth in this case @@dark_apprentice.

P.S. I don't want to be offensive but calling The Punisher one of the best artists in this HUB is very out of place. He is skilled porter and understands model edits and he deservers full credit for his work (shame it ended like that) but there are far better model artists like Scerendo, Langerd, DT85, AshuraDx, PsykoSith etc... I've improved a lot in past 2 years and I know from people's reactions I'm kinda popular but I still count myself as little worm in comparations with those

dark_apprentice · January 30, 2019

P.S. I don't want to be offensive but calling The Punisher one of the best artists in this HUB is very out of place. He is skilled porter and understands model edits and he deservers full credit for his work (shame it ended like that) but there are far better model artists like Scerendo, Langerd, DT85, AshuraDx, PsykoSith etc... I've improved a lot in past 2 years and I know from people's reactions I'm kinda popular but I still count myself as little worm in comparations with those

I will advise you to read in detail. I didn't say that he is better than those who actually are capable to make something from scratch and proven artists that can easily make a masterpiece. I was speaking about those of us who are porting / kitbashing, as he quickly become more experienced than me only as he invested more time and practice, he thought me valuable lessons on weighting that saved me hours of work.

@@AshuraDX Glad that we had this conversation you have highlighted some details I was probably missing. Ende gut, alles gut

Asgarath83 · January 30, 2019

Well just to be clear.. porting is a grey area. about stuff of other modders, is even better to ask permission to the original author that did a model with painful and long works of 3d modelling into 3d max and blender. about the stuff of other games or company.. well developers can be reasonable and try a deal... or go in anger ifdiscover that someone stole the models of his commercial game.

in that case , who ported the model can get any kind of legal issue. also, hosting ported stuff on a site, is dangerous for the site itself, cause, well, basically is considered a kind of piracy. and the sites that host movies, musics, books or intelletual property of other owner without permission can get really get tons of troubles. in the worse case, they can be forced also to closed up. there are a tons of alternative to portings, So be careful when you do some porting stuff. specially into sharing that, guys.

and this can explain also why on jkhub, (as in any serious modding site) is not allowed to host explicit ported material on a mod.

so, if you port somethjing, first off read the kind of licence and copyright that have the developer on their opera and the rights on that.

if is a stuff from another modder, try ever to contact him and to ask his permission, because is however a question of intellectual properties. porting is the fast and easy way for modding, i know, but is also the more dark and dangerous... build a model or a map with your own abilities is more painful, but sure is a source of honor and prestigie, for you and your skills and also for who share andplay to your creations.

so mine is not a condamn... but is not also an encouragement.

Be careful guys, i tell only that.

The Punisher · March 9, 2019

Made a promise to an old friend, so here it is:

https://mega.nz/#!OUA1hAYY!rEr_uG3jX89NyiNqg-dBUAvIKWcJpuJyPCAfWa_C3Es

NPC: Mando_Warriror

Notes:

Is not perfect, we put it together to have some fun and it served its purpose.

DarthStiv · March 9, 2019

Yet another masterpiece by you, that's damn great!

The Punisher · March 9, 2019

Yet another masterpiece by you, that's damn great!

Thanks!

The Punisher · March 16, 2019

Here is another one

https://mega.nz/#!jEo33YiD!bFaPpquUVCkWzBet-PE2kRfisaLoO3eI0oevEmNpg9c

NPC: MercilessSeeker

Notes:

Just like the previous one, is not perfect, we put it together to have some fun and it served its purpose.

DarthStiv · March 16, 2019

It's a good news to community that you're finally more or less back!

the_raven · March 16, 2019

Here is another one

https://mega.nz/#!jEo33YiD!bFaPpquUVCkWzBet-PE2kRfisaLoO3eI0oevEmNpg9c

NPC: MercilessSeeker

Notes:
Just like the previous one, is not perfect, we put it together to have some fun and it served its purpose.

https://youtu.be/V9AbeALNVkk?t=103

The Punisher · June 22, 2019

TFU Droid

https://mega.nz/#!rZAAAazJ!J2ESoNR7IcfAfQyFqgAQNlfWqOlK1TKccYN3LwYRKks

The Punisher · June 23, 2019

8D8

https://mega.nz/#!CcojQQrR!mQgDPXA1fEvmd30AbaSOG0w1oRINjH2Sy6VWA4loEdQ

EV9D9

https://mega.nz/#!vZhFmCzD!TTy8SErxTcAdCUElOtHuly84TBq-BtQQHz6YkpSiF2k

Force Arena R2D2 (with extra "gadgets" from TFU R2D2)

NPC: r2d2

NPC: r2d2_antena

NPC: r2d2_baton

NPC: r2d2_arm

https://mega.nz/#!KYoQFQKa!SraW-a47VeVZKcde0EPeiJsx8ws5ggr1XKtDgq7cRD8

DarthStiv · June 23, 2019

Oh, such quality & details!

The Punisher · June 23, 2019

Oh, such quality & details!

Thanks. I am not sure where the models of 8D8 and EV9D9 originally came from, just got them on FP before it was shut down.

Omega · June 23, 2019

Awesome quality models Punisher, you never fail to amaze us.

Jeff · June 23, 2019

Great to see you back and better than ever.

The Punisher · June 29, 2019

Some old ports

Hoth Rebel (TFU Version, head from CODBO2)

Hands still need some tweaking. Will work on them when I have a chance.

https://mega.nz/#!jJ4QDQoB!KP7hXbwOJxS2BnMYxh26qbdoo6sbJ6C46xzfijY2lKc

Hoth Rebel (Free Radicals version, head from CODBO2)

https://mega.nz/#!7F5gAYpS!au1BbVEHizxTNmXAMNshsWcrjWSqGqip8JBtCB0RYhg

Endor Rebel (Free Radical version)

head from CODBO2
backpack/grenades from GoH
additional "head gear" from Ghost in the shell
"classic helmet" from Toshi's ROTJ Luke Skywalker

https://mega.nz/#!7dZU2SIR!Wlb_A9wub5J2FTopsVN03Q8lVuyvZ4eSE_hJhh43Iog

z3filus · July 6, 2019

That R2D2 is probably the best I've seen

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