KOTOR not canon

[Cerez]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_shoto

Knights of the Old Republic is now Legends??! Seriously, screw you Disney!!!

 

By their account, from now on only kiddie films will be considered canon. Only what Disney can sell to little children: that's Star Wars canon.

[minilogoguy18]

The fans just need to rise up and say fuck your cannon, we believe what we want.

[hleV]

It hasn't been canon since Legends became a thing. Where have you been?

[therfiles]

As great at KOTOR and TOR are, they really exist in their own bubble on the timeline. They don't really affect the new stuff very much. So I'm surprised that they would make it uncanon, but at the same time, it really doesn't matter. There is no story in that bit of the time line, so just play KOTOR and be happy. It's in that gray canon area where it is technically not canon but it is not actively contradicted by canon source.

 

Plus, arguments could be made over the whole "kiddie" films thing, but I don't think that's needed in this topic.

[Ping]

Kotor was destroyed by TOR anyways.

[Cerez]

There is no story in that bit of the time line, so just play KOTOR and be happy. It's in that gray canon area where it is technically not canon but it is not actively contradicted by canon source.

...yet...

 

What's next, Disney? The original Star Wars trilogy never happened? Oh wait... it happened, but the way Disney wants it! (Which is to say, it happened only as far as it still sells. If it doesn't sell in millions anymore, let's change it -- let's just reboot it, and make the older story non-canon. >.<')

 

Honestly, I'm entirely sick of it...

 

As @@minilogoguy18 has said, I'm keeping my own little Star Wars universe. Screw Disney, screw their new stories, and screw their new canon. They will never produce anything on the level of quality these past works have been made on anyway -- because their focus is on profit, not storytelling.

 

When the original team sat down to create Knights of the Old Republic, they focused on creating an authentic Star Wars experience. When the original film crew (and cast) got together to make the first film, they focused on the innovative story, the experience, bringing it to life authentically.

 

When Disney scrapped 80% of the existing Star Wars stories by creating their own "canon", they had one thing in mind: profit.

 

And I'm sorry, but the new movie shows that, too. I hate it. Not because it's a bad movie -- which it may or may not be to your interpretation -- but because it was made entirely for profit, and brings literally nothing to the table as a quality, new Star Wars experience. They haven't even tried, just took the old formula, slapped on a new sticker on it, and sold it as a new drink.

 

They'll never create something as good as the original trilogy or KOTOR -- they have no idea how to. They'll never even try, because the extra effort doesn't come with extra profit. It's easier to resell something repackaged than make it last.

 

And so Star Wars will slowly go down the toilet... But not our Star Wars. We'll always have KOTOR, and the original trilogy, and anything else we fancy. Screw Disney.

 

It just breaks my heart to see the overall world of Star Wars get so fragmented and damaged like this... and the fan-base, too...

[therfiles]

@@Cerez:

That's cool you feel that way. However, I don't think you are being entirely fair to a new generation of content creators or fans. The old books, the games, the shows...they all exist. And that's awesome. But there is more content, more story to be had, and now there is room for it. The old stuff still exists and is still respected, but there is a new direction. Its fine you don't like it, but its hardly a marketing scheme or only a profit motivated venture.

 

I often forget that Star Wars was quite dead before the Disney buy out. I'm so glad that new people can finally get into Star Wars. I know quite a few people that have never been Star Wars fans (by choice or by never seeing the films) and they love this new direction. So its cool if you don't but I don't see why it needs to be such an us vs them conflict. To be fair, games like KOTOR, JKA and other licensed products are just as much "profit" driven as any other Star Wars properties. If you want to talk about innovation and quality, that's a different story, but Star Wars has been a business since day one.

 

Again, saying TFA brings nothing new to the Star Wars universe on a thematic or narrative level is simply false. I'd be happy to outline this argument if you like.

[afi]

Even worse is the fact that Kyle Katarn doesn't even exist in the new canon so the chance to see a new JK is pretty much zero (if it was ever higher).

Maybe they are going to make movies that take place before EPI, maybe they have big plans for the time-period before and after the movies, who knows.

Maybe they want to make references in the movies to events that didn't happen in the old canon.

I think some events in the SW-universe are so well known and so important for so many fans that it would be really awkward if they would change it completely (for example the stories about Revan, Bane, but also young Obi-Wan and books that take place between the movies).

I really hope that they won't just make games for kids and movie-adaptions from now on.

[Cerez]

To be fair, games like KOTOR, JKA and other licensed products are just as much "profit" driven as any other Star Wars properties. If you want to talk about innovation and quality, that's a different story, but Star Wars has been a business since day one.

It's not about whether it is made for profit. It's about whether it is made for profit as a focus of the project. KOTOR was made for quality, and so was the original trilogy. They tried to innovate, and deliver an original, authentic experience. They were made for the story, with profit on the side.

 

The new movie is made entirely for profit, with an original story somewhere in the back corner, far-far away, where it's hardly visible... that little spec, yeah...

 

Again, saying TFA brings nothing new to the Star Wars universe on a thematic or narrative level is simply false. I'd be happy to outline this argument if you like.

Please do. Because apart from a few altered outcomes, I see absolutely no originality here. This movie is a modern reboot of the original Star Wars film, but on a much lower production level.

[afi]

This is getting off-topic but I liked the new movie even though the story was kinda boring and predictable. It was pretty much a remake of EPIV but with (imo) great actors and really good visuals and dialogues.

[Cerez]

But there's nothing there to last, @... :/ It looks and feels fancy because it's new, but it contains no qualities to make it last, other than what it stole from the original trilogy.

 

And if you put the two in direct comparison after 2 years' time, you'll see the Disney reboot can't even compare...

 

And when they said that the new movie would not contain any dodgy CGI, they lied. It does, and it looks dodgy. It won't last 3 years, I guarantee it...

 

Edit:

 

It's all a big money scam, and I'm beginning to see it now fully for what it is.

 

Even if they didn't have story, at least the prequel movies had original content in them. This movie doesn't even have that. Just makeovers...

[Circa]

Why is this being posted like it's news? We already knew that only the films and tv shows are canon. Plus a few books released since the Disney takeover.

However, Bioware said in a recent interview that they work fairly closely with Lucasfilm/Disney now with their content they release for SWTOR.

Also, Revan was ALMOST featured in Clone Wars. I think they're aware that there are some really good characters and plots in KOTOR and SWTOR (Revan, Malak, etc) and are probably going to continue to take what they want from them and make certain things canon.

For example, they took Malachor from KOTOR and it's now featured in Rebels (from what I hear, I'm behind on the show).

Anyway, I'm getting really tired of the constant "DISNEY RUINS EVERYTHING, I'LL MAKE STAR WARS WHAT I WANT IT TO BE" mumbo jumbo. It's getting really old. You're fine to think that way I guess, but stop being so dramatic about it. It's not going to change anything. Send Disney a letter if you want to do something about it.

[therfiles]

This movie is a modern reboot of the original Star Wars film, but on a much lower production level.

 

What? A New Hope was made with just 13 million dollars. The Force Awakens was created with a whopping 204 million dollars. Say what you want about the quality, but one clearly has more production value than the other. Now, I'm not saying that ANH wasn't innovative and ground breaking, but maybe I'm missing your point.

 

And again, while I agree that the original films and KOTOR are incredible and innovative pieces of storytelling, I fail to see how TFA isn't. Again, I'm not arguing that TFA is perfect. It is not. In fact, the mico-story (the characters) play strongly but the overall story is a bit more murky (political confusion, etc).

 

Really? No originality? I mean I'm not huge fan of the PT, but I cannot deny the new stuff it does and the new ideas it brings to the table. Any way, here are some of the biggies that stuck out to me:

 

Cosmetics/Visuals

• New aliens and droids
• New planets (alteration on the desert archetype = junkyard. I won't argue that Takadona or Q'Dar are super original because they really aren't atm )
• New lightsaber type
• New spaceships (not really...kinda forgettable but I'm being honest haha)
• Much more cinematic than any of the previous Star Wars films
• Compelling action
• New lightsaber fighting styles (as a formidable weapon, not a meat cleaver)

Lore

• No more Sith. All new dark side faction that has a new ideology
• A more brutal Empire (compare with what we saw in ANH to what we see in TFA)
• The Jedi didn't rise again. But why? Darth Caedus (I mean Kylo Ren) killed them all. Why???
• New force powers (force freeze, mental abilities amped up)
• New force practitioners (Church of the Force)
• New political situation (factions are now on a somewhat even footing. Republic vs First Order)
• Snoke and Maz. Where were they and who are they?

Story

• Leia as a political outcast. She is the only one who really sees the danger of the First Order but the Republic has grown complacent.
• Luke as a troubled outcast, afraid of his own abilities.
• Han as a wise figure, but struggling as a father.
• Han and Leia's conflict (Leia hiding the risks of training from Han)
• Rey's Journey. Someone who is left behind who only wants and needs someone to accept her (Finn or Luke)
• Rey's interaction with the force. She is truly powerful, but she never taps into it because she doesn't want to let go of her past.
• Rey vs Ren. While one is clearly more trained, Rey has more control over herself and thus gains the upper-hand.
• Ren's killing of his father as a way to convince himself that he is evil, and failing (just look at his face!). He has to convince himself to stay on this dark path.
• Finn's Journey. A traitor who was destined to always be on the run until he gained courage from an unlikely source (Rey). He was overwhelmed by the massive struggle in the galaxy, but once he made the conflict in the galaxy small (Ren kidnaps Rey) he gained the strength to go on.
• Kylo Ren. A figure very much aware of the dualism within him. Knowing he will be tempted by the light and yet he suppresses it (usually, people try to suppress the dark side)
• Kylo's parentage and interaction with Vader. How he views his sacrifice as weakness
• The Hux vs Kylo conflict.
• Undid the "happy ending" of the OT. Hurtful to the OT, but more realistic as an authentic story.

 

Sorry, this list is super incomplete. I hope to watch TFA again in the near future.

 

Again, I understand your anti-Disney narrative. But I'd love to hear how you counter some of my above points. And remember the alternative. We'd have no new Star Wars without it. No new fans. Etc.

 

EDIT: Also, a quick, incredible quote by Lucasfilm Story Group creative executive Pablo Hidalgo: "When you ask 'is it canon?' The answer means 'do other storytellers need to take it into account?' That's all the answer means."

[DrXann]

I really don't care about what they do anymore.Why because they're trying to cash in on all the money.What JJ Abrams did was make something that he enjoyed when he first watched  A New Hope in 1977 as a kid for nostalgia purposes into a "modernized" version of A New Hope called Star Wars The Force Awakens basically A New Hope 2.0. Go watch the comparison video between the two and they are almost identical save for a differences.If the fans want the books, games, and comics canonized go make a petition for it.

For me KOTOR, KOTOR 2, Shadow of the Empire, and the Dark Forces Saga are canon to me regardless even if they are just games. Even though the movie could have used some more explanations it grows on you after a while.

[Cerez]

To create something just to have something on top of something else that was great, doesn't justify having it. In other words, if you create something rubbish to cover up a quality work of art, how is that any better than not having created anything in the first place, and leaving the classic be the classic it is?

 

Money spent does not equal production value. The value of a production is pitted against its creative vision.

 

And to say that we needed the space for new stories is the same as to say "out with the old, in with the new". This is highly destructive to the long-standing tradition Star Wars has built over the years. While "tradition is tending the flame, not worshipping the ashes" (Gustav Mahler), we'd be fools to throw out all the classic stories and values Star Wars has built up over the years in order to replace them with something completely new. We might as well burn books and start a new inquisition, then. We'd be on the same mental level.

 

These are my two cents. As for the points you've raised, @@therfiles, with respect to your person, I'm not sure that they are proof of originalities, or proof of the scarcity of original content in the new movie. If we were to take these points and compare them to the original trilogy films, or even to the prequels, I think you'd find that TFA lacks much original content and themes in comparison to both, probably in that order: OT > Prequels > TFA. But thank you for sharing your thoughts on the movie's original content with me. It has helped me to see a few things regarding the new production(s), and understand some of your perspective.

[therfiles]

@@Cerez, again I misspoke. I still don't like that all that canon was thrown out, and I do value one, well-created storyline. But I think the sacrifice maybe was worth it, especially since the way they've handled it thus far. Again, I really appreciated this discussion.

[eezstreet]

To create something just to have something on top of something else that was great, doesn't justify having it. In other words, if you create something rubbish to cover up a quality work of art, how is that any better than not having created anything in the first place, and leaving the classic be the classic it is?

 

Money spent does not equal production value. The value of a production is pitted against its creative vision.

 

And to say that we needed the space for new stories is the same as to say "out with the old, in with the new". This is highly destructive to the long-standing tradition Star Wars has built over the years. While "tradition is tending the flame, not worshipping the ashes" (Gustav Mahler), we'd be fools to throw out all the classic stories and values Star Wars has built up over the years in order to replace them with something completely new. We might as well burn books and start a new inquisition, then. We'd be on the same mental level.

 

These are my two cents. As for the points you've raised, @@therfiles, with respect to your person, I'm not sure that they are proof of originalities, or proof of the scarcity of original content in the new movie. If we were to take these points and compare them to the original trilogy films, or even to the prequels, I think you'd find that TFA lacks much original content and themes in comparison to both, probably in that order: OT > Prequels > TFA. But thank you for sharing your thoughts on the movie's original content with me. It has helped me to see a few things regarding the new production(s), and understand some of your perspective.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think you're overdramatizing it a touch. It's not like an Inquisition at all, I mean those stories and that media is still there for people to enjoy and it's still being sold on venues like Barnes and Noble and Steam on a daily basis. All LucasFilm has done has branded these stories as "Legends" (I think the designation is) and kept them in a same sort of universe. You're free to still enjoy that level of canon for what it is, and you can still enjoy them. Nobody is taking that away from you. That's why I disagree with the notion of leaving solely based on the fact that what you like isn't the path that Disney has taken. I mean, Blizzard ruined what Condor/Blizz North created with Diablo 3 (in my opinion) but I still enjoy the old games and things like that. Disney is just choosing to ignore a canon, not get rid of it.

[Sithani]

I have a feeling some of you guys don't really understand the concept of "Legends". The thing is all media labelled as such may or may not had happened. That's how legends work. There's always a bit of truth in them. It doesn't necessarily mean this character or that character didn't exist, it means there are legends about him which could as well be true. EU needed to become Legends as it became so messy and ridiculous it wasn't really consistent at all. I know some people will still defend his favourite part from the EU (and I personally know some people who hate new canon and The Force Awakens simply because Kylo Ren exists instead of Jacen Solo, multiple Palpatine clones, Joruus C'baoth and Luuuuuuuuke Skywalker), but it's pointless imo. Nobody will ever take your enjoyment from you. Every single piece of that content still exists. You can still play and enjoy The Force Unleashed or JK Series without hating the new content.

 

Also, only stories directly contradicted by new material are not canon.

[NumberWan]

@Cerez
I am surprised this topic appeared only now. The cancellation of KOTOR, Dark Forces, Shadows of the Empire and many other things has been a major issue among fans since the cancellation of everything. While I couldn't see you here, I actually thought, that you left the forum because of this very reason (partly joking). It was an almost mortal blow to me too, though I rework the information, given to me by the new canon to fit into the general storyline. 

 

For instance I ignore for the most part the comics about Kanan (if look closely, it's a repetition of Kyle Katarn story, he even uses the Moldy Crow ship in one of the stories), and others (like about some Imperials, new adventures of Luke, Leia, Han, etc). What I know about some of these - they are quite dull. The same unfortunately applies to most games of late.

 

As contraversial TFA can be, I always dig into the new stories (and most of people might have known that already), so the new quote by Ahsoka Tano, which is seen in my signature here in the forums works perfectly: while not seen directly, there is a senator from Taris on the Republic world of Hosnian Prime. Taris itself can look differently though.

 

What I see now with the new canon is that there is no point for them to develop something new, so they grab ideas from the old canon. Personally I would have used it as a basis, but kept most of the original stories as canon. I can still see a hige amount of possibilities for good old RETCON, which can work even now with TFA. Even Jedi Academy can be uncontradicting with the new canon with proper explanation.

[the_raven]

What I think is that we need to launch some kind of petition to make KOTOR canon, but have them put it not 4000 years in the past, but 400 (because technology-wise, KOTOR wasn't that ancient anyway), and fuck TOR, it was a fucking cash-grab that messed everyhing up

[Futuza]

I really don't get why you guys are upset.  Having a consistent continuity is far better then having a million things contradict each other.  I mean...several other franchises do similar things.  Look at the Marvel universe, you have so many contradicting stories they invented an entire multi-verse to allow for radical contradictions because they all happen in a different universe.  DC does the same thing.  Aside from all this, I think it's neat when they take parts from from the Legends section and reference it in the actual cannon (eg: Kylo being Ben for example).  It shows that they're still aware of the Legends content and will refer to it when it's useful.  I still think they could have made KOTOR canon though since it's set 4000 years in the past it really won't affect anything they're currently doing.  At least the very first one.  Also just because they've declined to use the Jedi Knight series as canon, doesn't mean they can't decide to have EA make a new Jedi Knight game.  It would have an entirely different story, yes, but the mechanics would likely follow a similar suit (other then of course EA screwing it all up and having day one DLC, broken mechanics and discouraging modding - but that's an EA problem not so much a Disney one).  Also it doesn't mean Kyle Katarn can't be referenced in the future.  He's like the Chuck Norris of Star Wars so it'd be a waste if they didn't at least reference him somewhere soon.

[Grab]

I don't know why you care. KotOR is canon for me and ep7 is not. I don't care what princess disney say.

[TheWhitePhoenix]

I really don't get why you guys are upset.  Having a consistent continuity is far better then having a million things contradict each other.  I mean...several other franchises do similar things.  Look at the Marvel universe, you have so many contradicting stories they invented an entire multi-verse to allow for radical contradictions because they all happen in a different universe.  DC does the same thing.  Aside from all this, I think it's neat when they take parts from from the Legends section and reference it in the actual cannon (eg: Kylo being Ben for example).  It shows that they're still aware of the Legends content and will refer to it when it's useful.  I still think they could have made KOTOR canon though since it's set 4000 years in the past it really won't affect anything they're currently doing.  At least the very first one.  Also just because they've declined to use the Jedi Knight series as canon, doesn't mean they can't decide to have EA make a new Jedi Knight game.  It would have an entirely different story, yes, but the mechanics would likely follow a similar suit (other then of course EA screwing it all up and having day one DLC, broken mechanics and discouraging modding - but that's an EA problem not so much a Disney one).  Also it doesn't mean Kyle Katarn can't be referenced in the future.  He's like the Chuck Norris of Star Wars so it'd be a waste if they didn't at least reference him somewhere soon.

EA...making a Jedi Knight game...? *Raises his hand to tell him to stop.* And not have it modable, have on disk DLC, and micro transactions, as well as an unfinished plot that will never be finished most likely, like you said? Yeah...I don't think so, Futuza. On Kotor, they already made Malachor V canon, so that should include KOTOR 2 as well. And I don't think they will reference Kyle, but you never know. If they do, they'd better do it right.

[Ramikad]

If they do, they'd better do it right.

 

To me, "doing it right" would be "not doing it at all". To me it's too likely that he might be changed as a character, and considering that any change would probably go horribly wrong I'd hate to see this legend butchered.

[Futuza]

EA...making a Jedi Knight game...? *Raises his hand to tell him to stop.* And not have it modable, have on disk DLC, and micro transactions, as well as an unfinished plot that will never be finished most likely, like you said? Yeah...I don't think so, Futuza. On Kotor, they already made Malachor V canon, so that should include KOTOR 2 as well. And I don't think they will reference Kyle, but you never know. If they do, they'd better do it right.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for it to happen.  I am predicting what may very well happen in a few years.  The Jedi Knight series are often considered some of the more successful and fun to play Star Wars games created, and EA has the exclusive Star Wars licence.  EA has three studios under their belts they've claimed will be put to the task of making Star Wars games, if we don't see some sort of Jedi Knight successor you can count yourselves lucky.  They already did it to Battlefront and The Old Republic (the MMO and new Battlefront are both often considered disappointing failures by the general gaming community), you can guess what will come next sooner or later for better or (most likely) worse.

 

My point in all of this, as it relates to the topic is that EA is the failure point here much more so than Disney, as far as the games go.  You ought to protest them, not Disney.