Be supportive

[Cerez]

Since I've joined, I've been talking to a lot of members here, and I've found many of them have experienced hostilities from too much egotism on behalf of other members on the forums. In order to help improve relations, may I suggest adding something like the following to the forum rules:

 

Be supportive

 

When members share their work and ideas on the forums, try to encourage and support them with your views or advice. Don't be overly critical to the point where you discourage or offend the member, or make them and their efforts feel unwelcome.

 

Don't be selfish.

[Futuza]

I think part of your experience was soured after members like Deviance (he's cool now B) ) when he first joined made most of us grumble a bit.  A lot of the members have had to endure incessant, annoying requests accompanied with rage when no one wanted to do their request for them and their advice was ignored.  These types of members didn't seem to understand that everyone on here is here because of their own choice and have no obligations to help anyone, and if they aren't interested in a project/model/skin etc... that is well in their right to ignore requests for help.  As a result, when a newbie enters the forums requesting (or rather demanding) things without seeming to contribute anything of their own, understandably most of us are annoyed with them.  I think a few of us have become hardened and less friendly as a result.  Just so you understand a bit better.  I agree, a lot of people here could be a little more polite and helpful for sure; however, being 'offended' is something that person chooses to do and very much uncontrollable by anyone except the 'offended' person.  As an example, I could be offended when no one wants to help me DDOS Caelum's servers, and take offense when others claim that such activities are 'rude and illegal' and proceed to blame the community for a 'hostile' atmosphere, when really the problem is me, not them.

 

But basically I think we already have that rule about being helpful and friendly, 

"Don't be a jerk".

 

I think most of the people on here are capable of being mature and friendly without needing an additional rule to tell them to do so.  So, in conclusion, no I don't think we need a new rule; however, yes some of us could stand to be a little friendlier.

[Bek]

Good job getting this message out Kenoi, I'm pretty sure a lot of people need to know this, though it should be common sense.

[Cerez]

I find it helps to spell these things out clearly. It may be common sense, but you'd be surprised how easily people forget. "Don't be a jerk" is a little too brief. Most forums, and in fact, even overly formal and cold legal agreements have a written guideline that says "All parties in their dealings with each other will act reasonably and in good faith", which basically means have a positive and supportive attitude through the whole ordeal.

 

It is better to ignore someone's repeated requests -- or, better yet, try to calmly explain to them the environment/circumstances they're in -- than to criticise/scold them and take a more hostile approach. That's my personal view, at least.

 

I think we generally need to think open and positive when communicating with one another, and try to support each other's efforts -- and if someone is somehow abusive in their behaviour, we can point them to the rules and say: this is what you need to follow if you wish to continue your stay.

 

I think that's fair on everyone.

[Futuza]

I find it helps to spell these things out clearly. It may be common sense, but you'd be surprised how easily people forget. "Don't be a jerk" is a little too brief. Most forums, and in fact, even overly formal and cold legal agreements have a written guideline that says "All parties in their dealings with each other will act reasonably and in good faith", which basically means have a positive and supportive attitude through the whole ordeal.

Long legal garbage are things no one wants to read or understand.  It is part of what has made America so obsessed with its sue happy culture.  I don't want that here.  Simple, short rules are best.

 

If someone is struggling to understand "don't be a jerk", then a staff member can explain that to them over PM and if they continue to ignore it they can be warned/banned, until they get it.

 

 

 

It is better to ignore someone's repeated requests -- or, better yet, try to calmly explain to them the environment/circumstances they're in -- than to criticise/scold them and take a more hostile approach. That's my personal view, at least.

We did.  Several times.  And he raged at us and took offense to our calm polite constructive criticism and helpful suggestions.  Eventually though he got to hear the sharp side of our tongues (or rather fingers) and he finally snapped into it and realized he was being a dick.  So yeah, I think most of us agree with you.

[eezstreet]

I think what @DarthFutuza says rings true. In the beginning, this place was relatively calm and peaceful. However, at some point in time, a wave of...well, kids, tbh, came through and it's kinda rattled everyone a bit. There's been issues in the past with plagiarism, porting, etc. There was also "omg why do you guys have a request forum if nobody is going to take all of them!!" and "why is everyone giving me criticism! you all are supposed to love my work!"

 

I think for the most part, people here are supportive, but they require some display of maturity/measure before they are comfortable with others. I wouldn't expect a shower of "wowow amazing take my babies pls" unless there's something to show, or a significant amount of trust in the person first. Heck, I don't receive that much support for stuff that I do, doesn't bother me that much. I actually prefer some degree of criticism as it gives me something to focus on.

 

Like I said, I think there's some division between "kids" and what some call "pros." There's misconceptions on both sides for sure. Can we add a rule to the site which asks people to be supportive? Well...there are legitimate reasons why one may want to be unsupportive. I can't honestly see us as a collective community supporting some projects. If someone was brazenly breaking the law to make their mod (regardless of quality), why would we as a community be forced to support such a thing?

And furthermore, people have a right to their own opinion. I'm not saying that supporting people is a bad idea. I think that people need the opportunity to be told "wow, this is crap for X reasons". NOT "wow this sucks go die."

 

Some people may interpret one thing as meaning the other though.

[eezstreet]

And furthermore, if you're modding for reputation or support or whatever, then that in my opinion is completely wrong. Other people praising you for your work shouldn't be the source of your passion/happiness. That comes from within.

[Cerez]

Darth, I don't want to criticise you, but even in your response here I can feel a lack of respect towards another individual. I'm not sure who Deviance is, I've never met him/her, but I'm sure he/she wasn't the only one responsible for the hostilities, and that everyone involved in the debate took a more or less equal part.

 

We need to be mindful of our approach, members and staff alike, but especially staff members need to be careful not to engage in one-on-one debates with members, and instead have a clear set of rules and procedures to follow that respect the (trouble-causing) member and help to steer her/him in the right direction in order to avoid the need to restrain/punish.

 

I understand your views, Eez and Darth, and I agree that people should stay natural and not pretend they like something they do not, but I do think we need to find a way to avoid getting entangled in unnecessary arguments and making other/new members feel unwelcome even for their mistakes or misunderstanding.

[Futuza]

Darth, I don't want to criticise you, but even in your response here I can feel a lack of respect towards another individual. I'm not sure who Deviance is, I've never met him/her, but I'm sure he/she wasn't the only one responsible for the hostilities, and that everyone involved in the debate took a more or less equal part.

Deviance can take the heat, and I believe he and I have an understanding now.  I think he'd be comfortable with being mentioned as an example.  (If not, then I'd be more than happy to apologize to him, but I'm sure he can handle it).  I'm certainty not blaming him for all hostilities, if that's what you read into my post, just as an example of one of many that caused the reaction it has.  I'm not sure what you mean by "everyone involved in the debate took a more or less equal part"?  

 

 

 

staff members need to be careful not to engage in one-on-one debates with members, and instead have a clear set of rules and procedures to follow that respect the (trouble-causing) member and help to steer her/him in the right direction in order to avoid the need to restrain/punish.

This is what the PM system is for, there's rarely a need for a staff member to rebuke someone in public.

 

 

 

 but I do think we need to find a way to avoid getting entangled in unnecessary arguments and making other/new members feel unwelcome even for their mistakes or misunderstanding.

Make everyone read the Sermon on the Mount?  This is just part of human nature, not sure there's really a lot you can do other then reminding everyone to just be a nice person.

[eezstreet]

We need to be mindful of our approach, members and staff alike, but especially staff members need to be careful not to engage in one-on-one debates with members, and instead have a clear set of rules and procedures to follow that respect the (trouble-causing) member and help to steer her/him in the right direction in order to avoid the need to restrain/punish.

Please list an example where we've debated with or punished someone where we could've gone another way? We don't target specific people, we just react to reports and situations which arise. If you feel that there is a situation where we haven't, feel free to let us know so we may improve.

[Raz0r]

I think one of the first rules in early JKHub was something like "Don't be a dick" which I think summed it up rather well.

[Cerez]

Please list an example where we've debated with or punished someone where we could've gone another way? We don't target specific people, we just react to reports and situations which arise. If you feel that there is a situation where we haven't, feel free to let us know so we may improve.

 

Thanks Eez. I'm not suggesting this is common here -- thankfully it's far from it! In fact, I'm quite proud of the way the staff has managed recent events.

 

My original direction with this topic has actually been swayed off a little towards particular other events I was little aware of that Darth pointed out.

 

Going back to the start, I only recommend that there be guidelines for all members on certain behaviours that are alienating to other members, such as too harsh criticism that serves not to aid the member in their creative development, but to discourage them from further attempt at their work.

 

The key thing here is not the fact that the work is being criticised, but the intention that goes on behind the criticism. For criticism to be constructive, one's primary motive needs to be to help the artist progress and complete their work, and not to throw them off their game in order to express one's own selfish opinions. Too much criticism that is geared against an individual's work, passion, and person in essence is not much different to a direct assault on that individual. The effect is the same: the person is frightened off and they will never attempt to create another artwork with the same tools/approach or in the same community again -- or perhaps ever.

 

There needs to be a general approach that promotes a friendly and productive creative community atmosphere, and "Don't be a dick" does nothing to promote that.

[Mandalorian]

I think the forums are reasonably fine but I'm quite new, being new to the forum has been a challenge from my side,  Not knowing the flow means you can be annoying to others without realising it (hope I contribute more than annoy). The more experienced modders are like legends to people and so I think when you receive negative feedback from them, newbies to modding take it  personally. You want to be told by people of skill that you also have skill but you have to earn it.

 

So far the forum has being a good place to learn and I personally need constructive criticism to see where faults in my modding lay, the trick is to distinguish whether its opinion or an actual fault.

 

Egotism is tricky to address. It's generally easier to avoid those who's ego's do not match their skill, otherwise their egotism may just come from actual experience. 

Don't be a jerk is pretty easy and clear to me as a rule and it's the staff's job to regulate it. If they aren't they likely aren't aware of it.

[Ping]

I have found this place to be perfectly supportive of everything I do and suggest, so I wouldn't have it any other way.

[MagSul]

I did withdraw from this community partly because I wasn't happy about the way I saw a lot of people speaking to one another. I will say that often I feel people are being a bit cold-shouldered, but at the same time it's not always easy to convey yourself properly over text alone. What sounds normal to you can be read as hostile by someone else. My advice on that front is read what you've written before you send it. More importantly, read what you're responding to properly.

 

Often I've seen people be accused of being very unsupportive or discouraging. What is usually the case is that someone has asked for something without bothering to do any work or research into the process for themselves. This happens most often (from memory) in the requests forum. They'll ask for something either ludicrous, or easy. When it's the former, it isn't done, or they're met with "What's your contribution going to be?" which is a fair point to make. When it's the latter, it's: "This is really easy, you know we have tutorials on that?" This is not an unsupportive response, this is the opposite. This is a member of the community, likely a proficient modder who knows what they're talking about, encouraging you to learn how to make things for yourself. If you get stuck along the way, this is when we're likely to start helping. "Help those who help themselves!" tends to be the attitude, which I whole-heartedly agree with.

 

Biggest problem is usually the way something is asked for to begin with.

[Cerez]

I did withdraw from this community partly because I wasn't happy about the way I saw a lot of people speaking to one another. I will say that often I feel people are being a bit cold-shouldered, but at the same time it's not always easy to convey yourself properly over text alone.

 

Thanks MagSul. I think the "cold-shouldered"-ness comes partly from this lack of a general supportive approach, where the person helping is not really thinking about the situation of the individual they're helping. Often opinions are expressed just for the sake of showing off one's ego. This kind of behaviour leaves newcomers and even members who have spent a longer time here often feeling put down or otherwise empty.

 

As you and @@Mandalorian have pointed out, there are many members here who have had years of experience in their skills. They should be respected for their knowledge, skills, and wisdom, but there is no need for people to show off their big ego. Being humble goes a long way to earning respect. If everyone had a supportive intention in mind, there would much less alienation and cold-shoulderedness in this community. That's why I'm proposing that the rules/guidelines advise on a supportive approach that binds people in the community rather than an individualistic approach that promotes egotism.

[CaptainCrazy]

There's criticism and then there's well on here there's just that.  There's no encouragement or positive views and trust me people need such things really help them want to better themselves.

 

I had bad experience many years back on the Gearbox forums where this particular group of people would do nothing but insult my work, say that my modeling was crap and would never amount to anything.

 

They almost made me want to give up 3D modeling altogether but I decided not to do that because it would only serve to make them win and continue to be arrogant little buggers.

 

Then I've been on forums where people actually tell me good points and bad points and are supportive both towards me and what I'm doing and I've even re-done entire models because they made me believe in myself and I respected them.

 

Then you get the sort of "in-betweeners" who tell you that your work sucks even though most everybody else disagrees.  They do it because they see you as a threat and they want to throw you off the trail so to say because they truly believe that knowledge is power.

 

Criticism is good but if it's pure negative to the point where it only discourages people from wanting to carry on with their work then it's best to just ignore them people and keep doing what you're doing.  If it takes longer to learn then so be it but you'd not have learned from bad influence you'd have learned the right way.

 

Going back to the topic at hand I too feel the same way about this.  There have been a few times where I've posted something that I'm passionate about or feel really excited about whether it be a toolkit or a model and what-not and I've either been shot down or indirectly insulted.

 

I'm not going to linger on one particular thread that comes to mind but I was left feeling that I was an amateur artist who is easily impressed by shiny things because my work is so crap I have to pull the wool over peoples eyes to see past it using flashes and visual magic.

 

It's almost like living in a bipolar community sometimes.  People can be really friendly, have a good laugh, and generally be nice.  But when it comes to posting things that personally interest you, that personally make you feel great about a particular thing then most of said people attack you, degrade you and almost even mock you for it.

 

No doubt I'll get a lovely response to this but I suppose that I should learn to expect it.

[Cerez]

This is exactly what I'm talking about!

 

http://jkhub.org/topic/4356-ahsoka-tano-lightsaber/page-2

 

Why does a staff member feel to need to creatively challenge a member in order to prove a point without thinking how that will affect that member? After the member has been severely criticised. That's egotistic behaviour. It doesn't help anyone but serves to boost the staff member's ego. This is not responsible action, and certainly not considerate.

 

And then on top of this the staff member engages in a direct conflict with the member, making matters only worse!

 

This is why we need rules for member and staff alike.

[MagSul]

I'm sorry, but this is a severe over reaction. Folk like @@AshuraDX and @@minilogoguy18 know their stuff. They may come across as blunt, but they're only taking the time to share what they've learnt already from experience. @@AshuraDX isn't posting to intentionally demoralize @@CaptainCrazy, he's providing a working example of what he's talking about in an effort to save @@CaptainCrazy time and effort. We're mostly adults here, people shouldn't need to be persistently coddled or have their hand held. @@CaptainCrazy has done an incredible job on that lightsaber hilt. As has already been said, no one has told him that his work is bad. He has been told that it is inefficient from a game engine stand point and that is perhaps something he should consider if he intends to distribute the hilt for public use.

[Cerez]

I'm sorry, but this is a severe over reaction. Folk like @@AshuraDX and @@minilogoguy18 know their stuff. They may come across as blunt, but they're only taking the time to share what they've learnt already from experience. @@AshuraDX isn't posting to intentionally demoralize @@CaptainCrazy, he's providing a working example of what he's talking about in an effort to save @@CaptainCrazy time and effort. We're mostly adults here, people shouldn't need to be persistently coddled or have their hand held. @@CaptainCrazy has done an incredible job on that lightsaber hilt. As has already been said, no one has told him that his work is bad. He has been told that it is inefficient from a game engine stand point and that is perhaps something he should consider if he intends to distribute the hilt for public use.

 

I know you're trying to soften the situation MagSul, but the fact remains that @@CaptainCrazy did not feel @@AshuraDX's "assistance" was helpful one bit, and then on top of that, instead of pulling back, AshuraDX engaged in a direct confrontation with Captain.

 

At what point in all this did the criticism and "help" Captain received actually help with his progress on the model? In the end it only discouraged him from continuing his work. That's not the way to help someone. If you're going to assist, be considerate towards the person you're assisting, and their wishes.

[CaptainCrazy]

@@MagSul yet it has been stated by said people that they DO use 1k+ polies on their hilt models so how is this any different?  I am merely re-arranging things how I see fit.  Just because they model hilts in a certain way it doesn't mean that everybody else should follow the same method.

 

If I wish to add detail to an area that I believe needs detail then I'll do that and sacrifice other areas it's just the way that I work.  There have been lots of artists through-out history who have done things differently and been frowned upon and even criticized by other artists but their work is still good in its own way.

 

So these guys make lightsabers differently do I criticize the way that they make them or how they look?  No because that's just how they make them and it's none of my business as long as they're happy with their work.  I only criticize when people start to criticize me and the work that I'm proud of, or they try to make a point by making what they believe to be a better one and rubbing it in my face.

 

I spent quite a while bringing that hilt down from 9k to 1,200 polies because I originally didn't make it for a game.  It's like building a bird house or whatever and you're proud of your work and then somebody comes along and puts one next to it with improvements and it makes them feel good about themselves, re-asserts their authoritative position on making bird houses as if to say "Know your place bitch!"

 

However I've decided not to listen to this so called advice as I've been making models for the Source Engine and Bungie Engine for many years so I too know what I'm talking about.  Engines where the polygon count needs to be low and not exceed a particular amount.  This particular hilt is curvy at the front and I'm not about to replace them curves with a 45 degree line all because "it's efficient."

[afi]

While I agree with this thread...Be glad that these are not the ESL forums, you guys would have lost faith in humanity ages ago.

Also, there are two kind of people. People who are dicks and people who are over-sensitive.

I think it helps to be aware of what you can do and what you can't do. Personally I know that I'm a bad coder, so if someone would criticize me for that I could live with that.

If someone would start calling me a terrible player I'd call him out for a duel though

[minilogoguy18]

I know you're trying to soften the situation MagSul, but the fact remains that @@CaptainCrazy did not feel @@AshuraDX's "assistance" was helpful one bit, and then on top of that, instead of pulling back, AshuraDX engaged in a direct confrontation with Captain.

 

At what point in all this did the criticism and "help" Captain received actually help with his progress on the model? In the end it only discouraged him from continuing his work. That's not the way to help someone. If you're going to assist, be considerate towards the person you're assisting, and their wishes.

No one discouraged him, no one ripped on him, just said that the model had too much detail that needed to be brought down, this is an old game engine.

 

How the F do you people get butt hurt so easily? Are you guys really THAT soft? I swear, the times we live in.

 

The sheer fact that this thread even exists is a total joke.

[AshuraDX]

First of all I did not mean to offend anybody , if that was misunderstood , I'm sorry. BUT when I got started with modeling for this game , I created terribly inefficient meshes and recieved harsh critic and I mean really harsh but after a while instead of just crieing and raging on them about that I actually tought : hey these people have been working with this game for a much longer time than myself so probably they are RIGHT and I am indeed the one who is WRONG here . Thanks to these critics back then I reached my current skill level and i'm really gratefull for that . Fact is that this game's engine is quite old and does not really like rendering many complex models  at once.

so now onto the case here :

 

CaptainCrazy completely missed the purpose of any suggestions and valid points mini and I made, instead claiming that being restricted to fewer vertices on a mesh would

    A: make it look not as elegant

    B: you wouldn't be able to tell who's lightsaber hilt it was anymore by stripping more detail from it

These claims lead me to start a personal challenge , which I at first did not intend to showcase here but only to see for myself if one could build a mesh with an similiar amount of detail without using 1.2k vertices on the mesh , before all hard edges and UV seams are split , which will duplicate the vertex count along these splits  and thereby increase the vertex count by a lot not to say a shitload. Crazys response :

 

Make a low poly version if you like but my opinion on the matter will not be swayed.

 

I've worked on a lot of games mods so if I think that this is good then it's good and egotistical views of others will not change my views.

 

I swear sometimes you guys are really nice people to talk to and other times you're just opinions are just mean.  Yes I can take criticism but I'm not going to keep shaving polygons off the thing when it's for a Machinima.  It will look like total crap close-up and I'm not going to have people think that I couldn't even be bothered to make anything other than a box with a few rectangles glued on top.

 

 

So as you can see I highlighted a few things in there , the first 2 highlighted parts just seemed kinda off to me - judging others as being egotastical and exclaiming THAT in the same sentence ?

 

the second part is actually where it started to get ridiculous to me  WHY should anybody think he could not do any better ? The best content anyone can create for an old game engine like this is something that looks good and at the same time performs as good as possible so you dont want to use more geometry than you actually need - meaning you should scrap everything that could easily be textured on and it will still look convincing enough to be not considered "a box with a few rectangles glued on top"

 

after this reply by CaptainCrazy Omicron made a valid point - that it is okay to have a higher poly saber hilt for a machinima, some people will want to use it in gameplay situations aswell though, as this is a game after all, so I still think one has to find the right compromise between modeled and textured detail so that both groups of players can appreciate it to the fullest

 

Following that Crazy started completely ridiculing efficiently built models , and I have to admit I got a good laugh of his tinfoil-box comparison, but somehow that was also the moment I thought - hey you know what ? let me show you my "tinfoil-box" , if you want to see it. That's why I put that post in a spoiler tag, and warned anyone to make sure they really want to see the content as it COULD be offensive to some if you click that spoiler , look at it and ARE offended by the content then it's their own fault - they've been warned and still clicked it. I just wanted to show that theres actually no need to use an "excessive" amount of vertices to make a model look good which is something I learned in the past years . Now let me quote @ here

Or find ways to push the boundaries of what has been possible so far. (*hint-hint*)

that's exactly what you wan't to do - push the boundaries without smashing them with a (vertex) heavy club until they break and errors start showing up

 

The only thing I tried to accomplish was to prove that you can get a smooth shape and maintain the exact same defining silhouette all while keeping the vertex count quite low

I did not do this to boost my ego , I'd have done that in a much more rude & respectless way , I also did not mean to challenge him into any kind of competition or even run him off the forum

I just wanted to teach him a bit of respect for efficient modeling and as that was widely missunderstood I'd like to apologise , right here right now if he's still around by now @@CaptainCrazy , contact me via pm if you wish to talk about what happened here I'd be really grateful for that. To me Videogame art was never about competition - it's allways been my goal to get better , more accurate to the concept and teach my knowdledge to other those in this community who have known me for a while or maybe even since I started modding Jedi academy will probably agree on that.

[Cerez]

No one discouraged him, no one ripped on him, just said that the model had too much detail that needed to be brought down, this is an old game engine.

 

How the F do you people get butt hurt so easily? Are you guys really THAT soft? I swear, the times we live in.

 

The sheer fact that this thread even exists is a total joke.

 

I could ask the same on your end, minilogoguy. How are some people so insensitive to others' feelings that they can't see past their own objectives? The thing is we can call each other names, but this is not a mature way to relate to each other, and it won't solve anything.

 

I'm getting the feeling that some people in this community just don't want to see or even consider that their actions may be crude and inconsiderate towards others, and if we don't receive some relevant feedback on the staff's point of view on this, I may be forced to make up my own opinion about the real nature of this community.

 

I have to say that I've seen much better forums where members have acted much more responsible for their actions. If you can't learn to respect each others' point of view and feelings about certain matters, then I really feel sad for the state of things here, and I certainly feel that my efforts are in vain.

 

The only thing I tried to accomplish was to prove that you can get a smooth shape and maintain the exact same defining silhouette all while keeping the vertex count quite low

I did not do this to boost my ego , I'd have done that in a much more rude & respectless way , I also did not mean to challenge him into any kind of competition or even run him off the forum

I just wanted to teach him a bit of respect for efficient modeling and as that was widely missunderstood I'd like to apologise , right here right now if he's still around by now @@CaptainCrazy , contact me via pm if you wish to talk about what happened here I'd be really grateful for that. To me Videogame art was never about competition - it's allways been my goal to get better , more accurate to the concept and teach my knowdledge to other those in this community who have known me for a while or maybe even since I started modding Jedi academy will probably agree on that.

 

Thanks AshuraDX. I appreciate your detailed explanation of the events that took place from your point of view, and for your willingness to make up for any mistakes made. I have been in contact with Captain and I can say with certainty that the criticism received was indeed too harsh, and however helpful your intentions may have been, they did not produce the desired effect on the person you were trying to help.

 

Now, Captain is not unreasonable in his point of view, either, and what he felt was unsupportive criticism that tried to push certain practical ideas onto him that were not in line with his vision for this project. Instead of trying to understand the situation and listening to Captain's wishes, @@minilogoguy18 and you persisted in your efforts to prove a point based on your experience which effectively offended Captain and made him feel that his creative vision and project was being jeopardised.

 

This is why I feel we need to have rules of conduct in place that define what constitutes as constructive criticism, and what is considered an abusive form of criticism that many members feel does not make them feel welcome in this community.

 

This is not a matter of how sensitive someone is. We all have our breaking points. We all hold certain things dear. It is about understanding each other, and putting effort into respecting each other's views and visions, and placing them in importance above our own desire to prove a certain idea or meet a certain agenda.

 

If a member decides to showcase their creative work, let their vision be respected. Don't go barging in trying to prove your own view if you feel your view is not welcome. And if you happen to offend a member with your views, responsibly apologise, and cease to interfere with their project.

 

In real life we don't go forcing our ideas onto our friends despite their dislike of our thoughts and approach. Why do we need to do this online? Just because we don't see the other person face to face doesn't mean we need to disrespect their views, thoughts, or feelings about a subject. Let's be mature and civilised, shall we?

 

EDIT:

 

And I don't like to do this, but since you've put Captain in the spotlight, let me illustrate the wrong in your approach, too -- in the post that started this argument after your initial criticism:

 

Well I dont mind wether he does or not - but It'd be nice to see someone accepting critics , I've actually started modeling ahsokas hilt aswell not going to showcase it here yet though , my goal was simple : achieve the smooth appeareance of Crazy's model while keeping the pre UV&SG split Vertex count at around 600 to 700

"Well I dont mind wether he does or not" -- How can you not mind what the OP thinks of your criticism or how they feel about it? This shows complete ignorance and lack of care towards the views of the member you are trying to help, and illustrates a selfish attitude in someone else's creative project thread.

 

Note that you've added "as a personal challenge with a simple goal" after this incident to your original post, as well as "to create a good looking and good performing game mesh". The original post read as quoted above.

 

I'll get you to have a close look at the highlighted "I've" and "my". Does it at any point read to you that your proposal was to assist Captain in understanding his project? It certainly reads to me like you have taken matters into your own hands and decided to do a better job than Captain at his own project. And that's how it read to Captain, too. Which is why he responded with the retort you have quoted above.

 

This is also why I have responded with my humorous retort in the same thread to illustrate the irony in your approach, but you don't seem to have taken a hint from that.

 

As you can see, the description in your point of view of the transpired events is not entirely truthful, and I would like you to consider the situation in its entirety with a responsible, mature, and honest attitude.

 

I would also ask the rest of the staff to review this incident, and to feel free to contact me or @@CaptainCrazy to discuss this event in detail. I hope that serious thought will be given to the real life example presented here, and that we can reach an understanding and establish a fair course of action for the future.

 

In the unlikely event that I receive no correspondence and my plea is ignored, I will be resigning from this community as I won't see it fit for a productive creative environment. So for the sake of all the rest of the members here, @@Circa, @@eezstreet, and the rest of the staff, let's consult and please consider taking certain action regarding these events in preventive measures so that such sour incidents do not occur again, and that this community is established as a peaceful and creative place/haven for people to pursue their passions without attacks or prejudice.