Porting Discussion

[eezstreet]

 

Great points, @@eezstreet! I totally agree with you.

 

We have to understand that this a very charged, controversial issue. While the suggestion you posted is great, some members feel that all porting is a violation. But if we did that (no ported sounds, etc, all has to be original content), @ is definitely right, that a lot of our downloads would have to be removed. We have to find a balance between the "remove all of it" approach and keeping our community healthy and constructive.

Some members in this community feel that paying for code and models and making movies out of the JK assets is also fine. So that's kinda irrelevant. This is the best possible solution that I can think of, given the circumstances. In my opinion, many people look down upon porting due in part to the JKFiles nonsense (it really was nonsense how they handled it), and the opinion varies wildly between communities.

 

Perhaps a flagging method would work? Putting a little flag by mods that use ripped content and crediting it (mods already submitted wouldn't have to go back and do this, as it would be a major hindrance, and many mods have been hosted here on permission status)

oh god please don't start being like YouTube.

[therfiles]

Just throwing out ideas (even if they are terrible ones)

[eezstreet]

...In all seriousness though, 's okay, and I must admit some part of my ego does enjoy my opinions on things being used as an argument.

Well hey, you certainly had the best vision imo for this community.

[Syd0w]

I think sound effects and voices from the movies are in the safe zone, a significant amount has been released on starwars.com if that's worth anything (someone took the time to organize the sounds and uploaded them here awhile ago, too) 

 

Banning music might be a bad idea too, since a lot of the maps and major mods on here have SW music in them.  Just look at MB2, JKG, etc.  You could make a grandfather clause for those, but it would be really unfair to any newer projects that require music.  I personally don't have a problem with music mods so as long as you don't directly copy and paste entire soundtracks into a .pk3.  

[eezstreet]

I think sound effects and voices from the movies are in the safe zone, a significant amount has been released on starwars.com if that's worth anything (someone took the time to organize the sounds and uploaded them here awhile ago, too) 

 

Banning music might be a bad idea too, since a lot of the maps and major mods on here have SW music in them.  Just look at MB2, JKG, etc.  You could make a grandfather clause for those, but it would be really unfair to any newer projects that require music.  I personally don't have a problem with music mods so as long as you don't directly copy and paste entire soundtracks into a .pk3.

 

But suddenly models aren't okay either? I fail to see what makes sounds so different from models in that regard.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't allow new mods with ported sounds, I'm just pointing out a bit of inconsistency.

[Circa]

But suddenly models aren't okay either? I fail to see what makes sounds so different from models in that regard.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't allow new mods with ported sounds, I'm just pointing out a bit of inconsistency.

If you had to make the final decision, what would it be. Explain. I'm curious. You can PM me if you'd rather.

[MoonDog]

If you had to make the final decision, what would it be. Explain. I'm curious. You can PM me if you'd rather.

 

@@Laisum I'm sorry for the messy thread. I'll move all this argument to another thread if you want.

 

 

It's a discourse of opinions and a discussion about the morality of blatantly ported assets until some one cries, or using all their lives and must use a continue. That is when it becomes an argument.

 

Might be easier to just split the thread into a new discussion.

[ChalklYne]

It's just bad.

 

 

mmkay?

[Syd0w]

But suddenly models aren't okay either? I fail to see what makes sounds so different from models in that regard.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't allow new mods with ported sounds, I'm just pointing out a bit of inconsistency.

Don't worry, I agree with you.  It's just a dumb code of ethics that's adopted from jk3files, and I doubt the majority of the people here are willing to change from that view.  I'm not so much a model person but I think porting models is OK for education I guess because most of the time the ports are terrible anyway. The only time a model port pisses me off is when people try and pass it off as their own.

 

You're right though, we're already breaking the law ripping sounds and music, why should ripping models be any different?  If anyone finds out about how they let sounds and music through, they're going to act anyway.  Mods with ported material have existed for over a decade for this game, and it happens everywhere else for all other modded games. I haven't heard of anyone getting sued.  I've heard of mods - massive ones - that get C&D's but that's mostly due to potential profit loss. If JKHub really wants to be "ethical" and follow the law, at least three quarters of the files on this site would be removed but it is unnecessary because we've all been doing it for YEARS and nothing has happened.

[Kualan]

I get the point @@MoonDog and @@eezstreet are trying to make by comparing sounds to models, but in practical reality I think there actually is a distinction to be made between the two.

 

For the majority, any sounds being used in new mods originate with Lucasfilm - they may have been sourced from a SW game, but the actual sound is one that originated from the movies. Lightsabers activating, R2 whistling, blasters firing, taunts for canon characters etc. And Lucasfilm has a long history of supporting the use of these sort of assets by fans in fan films and the like. Amongst all the big companies, Lucasfilm was a firm supporter of its fans creating their own material - even sponsoring their own fan film contests and so on. Every year practically every film in these contests would use SW sounds and the John Williams' music and there would be no issue.

 

So where Star Wars sounds and effects are concerned, I don't believe there should be any restrictions until/unless Disney announces a new policy on the issue as Lucasfilm gives every impression of wanting to encourage the use of these assets to strengthen its fanbase rather than restrict it.

 

When it comes to 3D models, however, the game changes. These assets might have designs sourced from the movies, but they are themselves the individual creations of the game studios that made the game and as such would require that studio's individual permission to port to JKA. Which is why sites like JKHub can get antsy over the prospect of hosting them. The chances of any action being pursued over the matter is very low, but the site admins are totally within their rights to play it safe.

 

Now personally, I'm in the camp that doesn't mind using ported material so long as the porter makes no pretension that the model is their own creation - when someone ports a model but tries to claim credit for creating it from scratch, that can really irk me. However, just because I don't personally mind using ported models doesn't mean I feel that a site like JKHub should change its policy to suit my tastes. I think the current policy works just fine.

[Omicron]

Perhaps ported models on this site should be hosted not by JKH officially, but we provide a link to them, but it is separate from the JKHub dropbox. This could prevent JKHub from going into some deep shit, but still allow people to access them, but I'm not sure about the legality of this from JKhub's pov.

[Jango40]

Perhaps ported models on this site should be hosted not by JKH officially, but we provide a link to them, but it is separate from the JKHub dropbox. This could prevent JKHub from going into some deep shit, but still allow people to access them, but I'm not sure about the legality of this from JKhub's pov.

that's a good solution, I do want these files

[Omicron]

Why does it say next to 'Reply to this Topic', 'Topic Moderation'? It says I can delete this topic...

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yyp1z7dib0yptpb/Screenshot%202013-12-31%2012.54.46.png

[Syd0w]

@@Kualan I hate to change sides so quickly, but those are some excellent points you made.  If they don't have a problem with people making fanfilms uses sounds and music, I don't see why they would have a problem with a game mod that does the same.  You're completely right about game studios making those models, those are the property of those game studios and are not SW affiliated so I guess that completely rules out porting models in this discussion.

 

I should bring up that there are some mods that rip from places other than SW, since there's a probably a few mods also that rip from non-SW games and movies.  I guess those would be unacceptable unless they have a similar stance to that of SW.

[katanamaru]

Some mods use music from the Matrix movies. WB is against rips (if I remember correctly). Who is going to keep track of what studios are okay with rips, who lets some rips slide, and who doesn't let any rips through?

[therfiles]

We have to approach this issue, in my opinion, from both sides. On one side is the legal one. All ported content is illegal. End of story. Ripped sounds = ripped models and so forth.

But we have to approach the issue from the other side, that of the community. What policies would benefit the community, while also protecting it from legal action?

 

I can see @@Kualan's argument regarding sounds. One argument I've heard over the years is that sounds are OK to port because they are impossible to replicate. Models, textures and the like are able to be re-made. As modders, we hardly have access to professional equipment to create high quality sounds, but we have the ability to model a character on our own. Here's another example. We're trying to make an Obi-Wan Kenobi mod. Can we go to Ewan McGregor to get some original recordings to use for the sound files? Of course not! On the other hand, we can create a high quality model of him without porting it from a Lucas Arts product, as many modders have showcased.

 

While this stance is definitely hypocritical, we have to draw a line where it benefits the community and also protects JKHub legally. The argument of "some porting is okay while mods made exclusively from ports are not" is a solution, but one that still walks this fine line, and is still, at the end of the day, illegal. I support the idea of mods created exclusively from ports, like ported models, are not to be allowed, while mods that use minor porting and are still created from a majority of original content are OK. While a policy like this hardly appeases the "nuke all ported content mentality", it will benefit our community tremendously. With that in mind, however, we need to be understanding and compassionate to those who are new to the modding community and have no concept of what porting it and it's legal ramifications. Having a clear cut policy for JKHub submissions regarding porting is a must.

 

Keep in mind that this is my personal opinion, and is not at all affiliated with JKHub's.

[MoonDog]

I was just some what irked by the knee jerk reaction to delete a bunch of mods based solely on the ambiguous "rule" mentioned previously. It confuses that it's okay, but it's not okay depending on some sort of untenable point of view that each moderator is apparently entitled to have.
 

Staff have the final say

Users are welcome and encouraged to question staff decisions if they feel these decisions are incorrect. That said, please understand that our staff has the final say when it comes to moderating threads and enforcing our rules. We reserve the right to edit or remove any content on our website for any reason we deem necessary.

 
Maybe this policy specifically is a problem. Being as there are no apparent ceilings for how heavy handed a moderator can choose to be here, and there have been some extremely heavy handed moderation in the past here. I don't think it should be surprising if the rules are approached loosely by random people, when it is so ambiguous as to how they are being enforced. It's also confusing that, like I previously mentioned, the behavior of porting is acceptable in certain cases, but a bunch of models get deleted as soon as brought to attention.

[therfiles]

@@MoonDog that's definitely true. I personally hope to issue an apology to the community on behalf of JKHub for the confusion of such policies and the recent, quick actions that have confused some users.

 

I think the reason the rules are so loose (our only main one is the "don't be a jerk" rule") is because we expect others to understand how to act politely and constructively on a forum, and that over moderation only causes more tension. But if you think that maybe that was a mistake, we can definitely take a look a that issue, if others feel the same way.

[Syd0w]

My opinion at this point is: SW sounds and music (as long as you arent pasting in entire soundtracks) is OK, everything else is contestable since other companies don't agree with it, like what katanamaru said about WB hating rips.

[Circa]

I was just some what irked by the knee jerk reaction to delete a bunch of mods based solely on the ambiguous "rule" mentioned previously. It confuses that it's okay, but it's not okay depending on some sort of untenable point of view that each moderator is apparently entitled to have.

 

 

 Maybe this policy specifically is a problem. Being as there are no apparent ceilings for how heavy handed a moderator can choose to be here, and there have been some extremely heavy handed moderation in the past here. I don't think it should be surprising if the rules are approached loosely by random people, when it is so ambiguous as to how they are being enforced. It's also confusing that, like I previously mentioned, the behavior of porting is acceptable in certain cases, but a bunch of models get deleted as soon as brought to attention.

It definitely is understandable that it seems confusing. I believe we could have handled it differently by waiting for this discussion to come to a solution for taking drastic measures. Usually we are decent at doing that, but sometimes certain situations seem to require instant action.

 

I like this discussion. The staff will digest all of this and come to a new solution and amend the rules further.

[eezstreet]

If you had to make the final decision, what would it be. Explain. I'm curious. You can PM me if you'd rather.

I already brought it up in this thread: fully ported content (duel music packs, 100% ripped models with no new textures/sounds (NEW, -not- base), 100% ripped maps, etc) would be bad, wheras content with some ported content and some not (ie the New Vegas trooper, which had new textures, the multitude of models with ripped sounds, maps with SW music etc etc etc) would be okay. Fully ported content is okay with -written- permission from the copyright holder.

 

All legal responsibility for content falls on the shoulders of the uploader; JKH cannot be responsible for 100% of its files because it might not know where they're ported from, same as how YouTube operates.

 

Get rid of this "Acknowledged Rules" crap on files, it's annoying and makes no sense.

 

It's a discourse of opinions and a discussion about the morality of blatantly ported assets until some one cries, or using all their lives and must use a continue. That is when it becomes an argument.

 

Might be easier to just split the thread into a new discussion.

Yep.

 

 

 

 

It's just bad.

 

 

mmkay?

why, you use ported assets in your Starkiller model I'm sure. (maybe not ported, but ripped, which is the same thing really)

 

I get the point @@MoonDog and @@eezstreet are trying to make by comparing sounds to models, but in practical reality I think there actually is a distinction to be made between the two.

 

For the majority, any sounds being used in new mods originate with Lucasfilm - they may have been sourced from a SW game, but the actual sound is one that originated from the movies. Lightsabers activating, R2 whistling, blasters firing, taunts for canon characters etc. And Lucasfilm has a long history of supporting the use of these sort of assets by fans in fan films and the like. Amongst all the big companies, Lucasfilm was a firm supporter of its fans creating their own material - even sponsoring their own fan film contests and so on. Every year practically every film in these contests would use SW sounds and the John Williams' music and there would be no issue.

 

So where Star Wars sounds and effects are concerned, I don't believe there should be any restrictions until/unless Disney announces a new policy on the issue as Lucasfilm gives every impression of wanting to encourage the use of these assets to strengthen its fanbase rather than restrict it.

 

When it comes to 3D models, however, the game changes. These assets might have designs sourced from the movies, but they are themselves the individual creations of the game studios that made the game and as such would require that studio's individual permission to port to JKA. Which is why sites like JKHub can get antsy over the prospect of hosting them. The chances of any action being pursued over the matter is very low, but the site admins are totally within their rights to play it safe.

 

Now personally, I'm in the camp that doesn't mind using ported material so long as the porter makes no pretension that the model is their own creation - when someone ports a model but tries to claim credit for creating it from scratch, that can really irk me. However, just because I don't personally mind using ported models doesn't mean I feel that a site like JKHub should change its policy to suit my tastes. I think the current policy works just fine.

So let's assume for a minute that we're talking about sounds here, and not models.

 

You might be right that there are some sounds which are directly taken from the movies, but there are some which are individual games' property, such as the Wookiee Bowcaster and Imperial Heavy Repeater sounds from JK2. There's also the subject of KotOR music and sounds, which have been used in a wide variety of models and maps out there, including several which are uploaded on this site. My question is, what's to stop BioWare from issuing a C&D, then?

 

And, another thing. There can be standalone games made with the engine now. But the thing is, none of them can actually release Star Wars content since the license for Star Wars stuff falls to Disney. So what's the difference between a mod and a game, then? One of them relies on JKA to operate, and the other doesn't...so why is it that we're allowed to release content which might be compatible with said other games?

 

Also...y'know...Disney owns LA now so the subject of fan contests and stuff like that might be entirely different now. We just have to wait and see how things go.

 

Perhaps ported models on this site should be hosted not by JKH officially, but we provide a link to them, but it is separate from the JKHub dropbox. This could prevent JKHub from going into some deep shit, but still allow people to access them, but I'm not sure about the legality of this from JKhub's pov.

JKH isn't in the wrong if someone does this - doesn't even matter if they're staff, as long as they don't represent doing so for JKH. This is a pretty good idea though for people that legitimately want these ported models.

 

I can see @@Kualan's argument regarding sounds. One argument I've heard over the years is that sounds are OK to port because they are impossible to replicate.

 

 

You know what else is "impossible" to replicate, and yet gets copies illegally distributed of?

 

Pirated games, music, and software.

 

Models, textures and the like are able to be re-made. As modders, we hardly have access to professional equipment to create high quality sounds, but we have the ability to model a character on our own.

What about all the expensive software used to make a model? What about all the expensive software used to make textures? What about all the expensive software used to write code?

I mean sure, you have free alternatives, but you also need a fairly high-end computer in order to run these tools, do you not? Aren't these fairly expensive too?

 

 

Here's another example. We're trying to make an Obi-Wan Kenobi mod. Can we go to Ewan McGregor to get some original recordings to use for the sound files? Of course not! On the other hand, we can create a high quality model of him without porting it from a Lucas Arts product, as many modders have showcased.

so what you're saying is that it's alright to do stuff illegally because there's no other way unless you pay money...also kinda like pirating movies, games, or y'know, armed robbery, breaking and entering, shoplifting, heists, grand theft auto, etc etc

 

 

While this stance is definitely hypocritical, we have to draw a line where it benefits the community and also protects JKHub legally. The argument of "some porting is okay while mods made exclusively from ports are not" is a solution, but one that still walks this fine line, and is still, at the end of the day, illegal.

So you're perfectly okay with armed robbery, but not okay with ported models? WTF.

 

 

I support the idea of mods created exclusively from ports, like ported models, are not to be allowed, while mods that use minor porting and are still created from a majority of original content are OK. While a policy like this hardly appeases the "nuke all ported content mentality", it will benefit our community tremendously. With that in mind, however, we need to be understanding and compassionate to those who are new to the modding community and have no concept of what porting it and it's legal ramifications. Having a clear cut policy for JKHub submissions regarding porting is a must.

 

Keep in mind that this is my personal opinion, and is not at all affiliated with JKHub's.

so basically what I said before

 

I was just some what irked by the knee jerk reaction to delete a bunch of mods based solely on the ambiguous "rule" mentioned previously. It confuses that it's okay, but it's not okay depending on some sort of untenable point of view that each moderator is apparently entitled to have.

 

 

Maybe this policy specifically is a problem. Being as there are no apparent ceilings for how heavy handed a moderator can choose to be here, and there have been some extremely heavy handed moderation in the past here. I don't think it should be surprising if the rules are approached loosely by random people, when it is so ambiguous as to how they are being enforced. It's also confusing that, like I previously mentioned, the behavior of porting is acceptable in certain cases, but a bunch of models get deleted as soon as brought to attention.

Yep. I totally agree here. Moderators shouldn't be able to delete stuff like that willy-nilly. Omicron was just pointing out that the hub had several models which were ported, and now we have lost access to these models...

I knew I should have downloaded the New Vegas trooper.

[Omicron]

I'd like to apoligise now to the uploader's of the files which got removed due to me giving examples of ported content, had I known such drastic measures would have been taken, I probably would have kept my mouth shut, or atleast been vague about the existence of those mods here. :\

[Lamented]

http://jkhub.org/files/file/1640-new-vegas-ncr-veteran-armor/

http://jkhub.org/files/file/1477-general-grievous/

http://jkhub.org/files/file/1497-death-watch-maul/ <==Not ported from a videogame, but still taken without permission

http://jkhub.org/files/file/1498-savage-opress/ <==Same as above

http://jkhub.org/files/file/501-predator/

 

There are possibly others as well, but those were the main ones that came to mind. I don't have much against ports, but you probably do, as they can lead to legal issues and such. :/

 

Bullshit, Omicron! CWA only has that Grievous-legged Maul and Khameir made Maul in Blender.

Also, thanks for bitching about Savage again, a character nobody is willing to model. But I don't need JKHub's ****ing sponsorship to make him public

And finally, a Grievous that's better than a cartoony booger-ized version. Of course you have to throw that under the bus too

 

F*** JKHub. Thanks for removing my downloads, @@AshuraDX.

I'd like to apoligise now to the uploader's of the files which got removed due to me giving examples of ported content, had I known such drastic measures would have been taken, I probably would have kept my mouth shut, or atleast been vague about the existence of those mods here. :\

 

Sorry isn't enough to reduce a lie that made one of my Christmas presents go to waste.

[ChalklYne]

@@eezstreet

Not a single aspect of a single model of mine is ported or ripped or anything. i have shown each individual piece one step at a time as it was built. I am not sure what would even draw you to think that since the damn thing took me a year so far XD

[eezstreet]

@@eezstreet

Not a single aspect of a single model of mine is ported or ripped or anything. i have shown each individual piece one step at a time as it was built. I am not sure what would even draw you to think that since the damn thing took me a year so far XD

So where are the sounds going to be coming from?