rd-rend2 (old thread)

[Futuza]

You guys really gotta stop posting in this thead, every time there's a new post you get my false hopes up in thinking some former nvidia driver developer has just joined jkhub and decided to help out with rend2 full time.

[Raz0r]

I doubt money will help. Apart from Xyc's issue with having/wanting to rewrite cgame<->renderer communication, the only real concern is available time of skilled-enough programmers. At the moment that is 0

[DT.]

Well I guess all can be done now is plead with @@SmileTheory to continue this.

[eezstreet]

I think part of the problem with rend2 lies with OpenJK itself. Many of the performance gains to be had involve changing the drawing process, which would ultimately break compatibility.

In MB2's case you'd want compatibility, unless you want to completely remove the ability to run jamp. However that would require opensourcing the project (which I still don't think is a bad thing, fwiw) since you'd have to make it work with GPL code and only GPL code.

 

Anyways, what I'd like to see is a "FutureJK" which would be:

- No backwards compatibility

- A solid base for mods which require OpenJK to function (Warzone, JKG, possibly MB2, JK:E)

- rend2 replacing the vanilla renderer and improvements to it which wouldn't be possible under OpenJK

- My lip-syncing and G2 viewmodel stuff from JK:E

- A physics engine (but how to network? Hmm...)

 

While I realize that it has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding, such a "FutureJK" project would be the best path going forward for rend2.

[Archangel35757]

@@Xycaleth - would you please post here what exactly remains to be done to have a viable MP & SP Rend2 renderer? Maybe we can recruit a new coder if we know what remains to be done/fixed. Thanks!

[ensiform]

The renderers are too dissimilar to be merged.

[Archangel35757]

The renderers are too dissimilar to be merged.

...I didn't mean to imply a unified renderer-- simply dilineate what remains to be done for both rend2 MP & SP.

[ensiform]

Unified SP and MP renderer of course so that it would work for both is what I mean, not unified in the sense that rend2 would replace vanilla.

[Xycaleth]

rend2 never had parity with the vanilla renderer. These are missing:

• Surface sprites
• Flares
• Refraction shader
• Weather system
• Sky portals
• Marks on Ghoul2 models
• misc_bsp support

In terms of rend2-specific stuff, it was basically:

• Make it go fast
• Really polish off the existing rendering techniques (it didn't feel like all the effects came together to look consistent)
• Better antialiasing
• Better LOD support, including models, shader quality, etc
• Write documentation for new shader keywords + examples

In terms of SP, it's basically do all of rend2 again but for SP. There's a major problem in SP though where changing the renderer will crash the program.

[DT.]

I'd rather rend2 MP had parity with vanilla MP than worry about rend2-specifics or SP conversion. I've already sent SmileTheory a message on here regarding helping out but he hasn't logged on since December.

[Archangel35757]

I'd rather rend2 MP had parity with vanilla MP than worry about rend2-specifics or SP conversion. I've already sent SmileTheory a message on here regarding helping out but he hasn't logged on since December.

You'll have better luck catching him on #jacoders

[SomaZ]

Hey guys,

 

any chance i can help with rend2? I downloaded the sources and tried to implement a hbao shader instead of the ssao. It kind of worked, but i get some artifacts, which have something to do with the distance. Have not found out yet, where they come from.

https://img5.picload.org/image/woraiow/4_question.png

I set the intensity of the hbao very high so that the artifacts get visable. And i know its kinda ugly right now.

 

I have actually no idea of the renderer, but i want to help out if possible.

[Archangel35757]

Hey guys,

 

any chance i can help with rend2? I downloaded the sources and tried to implement a hbao shader instead of the ssao. It kind of worked, but i get some artifacts, which have something to do with the distance. Have not found out yet, where they come from.

https://img5.picload.org/image/woraiow/4_question.png

I set the intensity of the hbao very high so that the artifacts get visable. And i know its kinda ugly right now.

 

I have actually no idea of the renderer, but i want to help out if possible.

So you have a good grasp of OpenGL coding? You are an answer to many prayers! Yes, @@Xycaleth needs coders to help with Rend2. And if you have any friends that know OpenGL related coding please bring them in as well.

[z3filus]

just a quick question, would rend2 eventually be capable of doing this?

 

 

 

or too early to tell?

first off, I know I dragged this from few pages back but im also still waiting for that one mod that allows bigger, more detailed maps

with 90-150 fps even with 32 players jumping around, oh boy...  I would kill for "open world" maps in JKA  <3 :D

[SomaZ]

So you have a good grasp of OpenGL coding? You are an answer to many prayers! Yes, @@Xycaleth needs coders to help with Rend2. And if you have any friends that know OpenGL related coding please bring them in as well.

 

I have a very limited view on OpenGL right now. In fact, i just started learning some of it. But i understand most of the basic concepts of it. And i really hope i can help. Right now im just crawling through the render code trying to understand it, hack some shader code and stuff trying to archive something, to get a solid base of understanding the code.

 

@@Xycaleth Is there any way to get the normal buffer into the glsl right now, or do i really have to compute it in the fragment shader every time?

[Xycaleth]

You might have some trouble understanding everything that's going on if you're only just starting to learn but I'm happy to answer any questions you might have

 

Rend2 doesn't use deferred rendering so there's no concept of a normal buffer. You would have to write each pixel's normals into a separate texture during the regular shading.

[UniqueOne]

Oh man, I don't really like to do this. I have tried over and over to try to convince Xycaleth it is not a lost cause, but his mind is not going to change.

 

It feels like a thread hijack, but since the "official" rend2 is all but dead...

 

I think part of the problem with rend2 lies with OpenJK itself. Many of the performance gains to be had involve changing the drawing process, which would ultimately break compatibility.

In MB2's case you'd want compatibility, unless you want to completely remove the ability to run jamp. However that would require opensourcing the project (which I still don't think is a bad thing, fwiw) since you'd have to make it work with GPL code and only GPL code.

 

Anyways, what I'd like to see is a "FutureJK" which would be:

- No backwards compatibility

- A solid base for mods which require OpenJK to function (Warzone, JKG, possibly MB2, JK:E)

- rend2 replacing the vanilla renderer and improvements to it which wouldn't be possible under OpenJK

- My lip-syncing and G2 viewmodel stuff from JK:E

- A physics engine (but how to network? Hmm...)

 

While I realize that it has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding, such a "FutureJK" project would be the best path going forward for rend2.

I came to the same conclusions about OJK quite some time ago.

 

Although I see no reason to loose backward compatibility for old maps (unless we are able to replace BSP - oh god, of only!). It is not, however the obligation of an engine enhancement to support old mods. Those mods should patch themselves to use new technology.

 

"FutureJK" is exactly what we are working on with Warzone at the moment. We have put our MMO plans on hold to create a base for other mods to use. We have made massive FPS improvements to rend2 (mainly through extended surface merging - made possible mostly due to our use of material types) and now are working on other stuff like foliage and tree systems, and extended AI and AI spawning systems with the spare CPU/GPU time gained.

 

Hey guys,

 

any chance i can help with rend2? I downloaded the sources and tried to implement a hbao shader instead of the ssao. It kind of worked, but i get some artifacts, which have something to do with the distance. Have not found out yet, where they come from.

https://img5.picload.org/image/woraiow/4_question.png

I set the intensity of the hbao very high so that the artifacts get visable. And i know its kinda ugly right now.

 

I have actually no idea of the renderer, but i want to help out if possible.

You should try your hbao shader in warzone renderer. We have HBAO already, but I would always be willing to switch it to a better looking one if you feel like playing with it. Also we could sure use some help with the project if you know OpenGL... hell even if you don't we sure need help. I've been doing all this engine stuff myself for a year.

 

first off, I know I dragged this from few pages back but im also still waiting for that one mod that allows bigger, more detailed maps

with 90-150 fps even with 32 players jumping around, oh boy...  I would kill for "open world" maps in JKA  <3 :D

 

Warzone already does foliage and trees. Including distant billboarding of trees. Replacing the crappy Q3 BSP map format, however is beyond my abilities. We are just trying to use it as best we can unless someone comes along that can replace this antiquated BSP crap.

 

 

 

You might have some trouble understanding everything that's going on if you're only just starting to learn but I'm happy to answer any questions you might have

 

Rend2 doesn't use deferred rendering so there's no concept of a normal buffer. You would have to write each pixel's normals into a separate texture during the regular shading.

Warzone already creates a normal map image in this way. Feel free to look at our code for an example, or join us.

 

 

If only we could pool all the talent in the JKA community into creating a "FutureJK", we would all be better off in the long run. If not, then Warzone will be done when it is done and you are all free to use it and it's code. All I ask is that if you make good changes, please pass them back to us.

[SomaZ]

So i've been looking into the warzone sources a bit and found a major mistake in my shader, so thank you for the tip. Right now my shader has no "depth check" for the effect but it works. Here some wip picture (still with very high intensity):

 

 

@Xycaleth There will be a lot of questions incoming, i'll promise.

@UniqueOne So you basicly improved rend2? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Does your renderer still has the same compatibility as rend2? Pls tell me more. If it's just an improved rend2, which still works with OpenJK, why we don't use it?

[DT.]

Looking good.

 

I'd like to see things like weather and sprites added to rend2 just to bring it up to parity with vanilla. Just be careful what you add from Warzone, as it "may" take a chunk of FPS even though it looks great.

[Stoiss]

@@DT85 it isnt that bad anymore... a lot of stuff have been fixed over the last few mounth sense last time you tried it.

so it is not all junk you know.. even if you say "may" you cant say it is like that anymore, just so we are clear on that

[UniqueOne]

So i've been looking into the warzone sources a bit and found a major mistake in my shader, so thank you for the tip. Right now my shader has no "depth check" for the effect but it works. Here some wip picture (still with very high intensity):

 

 

@Xycaleth There will be a lot of questions incoming, i'll promise.

@UniqueOne So you basicly improved rend2? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Does your renderer still has the same compatibility as rend2? Pls tell me more. If it's just an improved rend2, which still works with OpenJK, why we don't use it?

That HBAO is looking pretty cool man. Nice work.

 

We forked our code from OJK about 1.5 years ago.

 

We increased max player limit to 128, so warzone requires mods to make a few changes to work. For the renderer itself, OJK has changed their renderer API a little since then and so have we, but nothing major has changed, so it wouldn't be too hard to make them work together.

[DT.]

@@DT85 it isnt that bad anymore... a lot of stuff have been fixed over the last few mounth sense last time you tried it.

so it is not all junk you know.. even if you say "may" you cant say it is like that anymore, just so we are clear on that

 

Who said it was junk? I said it looks great. There's a few features in Warzone that I don't agree with and wouldn't want to see in the main rend2 repo like all the autogen stuff, though. There's just no substitute for artist-created textures unless you haven't any artists, but what team wouldn't have any artists? As a whole, I do like the Warzone project and what it's achieved so don't take this as bashing the project as that's not what I'm trying to do.

 

@@SomaZ

 

Xycaleth loves to be bugged.

[UniqueOne]

Who said it was junk? I said it looks great. There's a few features in Warzone that I don't agree with and wouldn't want to see in the main rend2 repo like all the autogen stuff, though. There's just no substitute for artist-created textures unless you haven't any artists, but what team wouldn't have any artists? As a whole, I do like the Warzone project and what it's achieved so don't take this as bashing the project as that's not what I'm trying to do.

 

@@SomaZ

 

Xycaleth loves to be bugged.

The autogen shaders are only used if you don't create one. autogen material types are only used if you don't assign a material type in your shader. If you provide those 2 things in your shader, it won't try to generate either. Otherwise the code will do the "best it can" to generate ones that support the rend2 features. Don't want it to autogen normal map? Add your own. This is the only way to support old maps and models with new features when most of the creators will never return to do it.

 

This means a lot less work for modelers and mappers as in most cases you don't need to create a shader at all. You just create one if you want something specific, or if what it generates is not what you want.

 

As for FPS, no longer an issue at all. You just tried the mod at the point when we enabled rend2 features on everything, but before we had a chance to tweak rend2.

 

The issues you saw in the past were rend2 issues (nearly all of which we have fixed now anyway). Rend2 itself doesn't use it's features due to lack of map/shader support (it's like comparing vanilla to a modern game renderer), so of course there was a FPS hit before it was all tweaked to use the features.

 

You really should update and look for yourself. Just be sure to delete your old warzone settings as a lot has changed.

[DT.]

@@Xycaleth

 

Why does post processing set to 1 chew up so much fps?

 

 

Side note: Would be really great if someone could implement sprites and weather. At least then, rend2 could be used in MBII.

[Xycaleth]

How much is "so much fps"? What FPS are you getting before and after enabling r_postProcessing?