Ported material

[ChalklYne]

I have been trying for days to word this correctly.

 

Ported content ruins my experience here. I wouldnt have learned to model had it not been for our rules on porting. There is a lot of very talented people here who deserve thier praise for thier work and can sometimes benefit from good criticism. Its a huge headache to put a ported head of Luke next to a thread of someon trying to model Luke?? It's disrespectful, and Im not sure if we all voted on receiving ported content or what, but it really is just a different site with all of that chaos mixed in with original art.

 

Post your answer or whatever, I tried to shut up about it, but its just making my login lackluster. Please no offense to the porters... I just think we need to be separated.

[Futuza]

Well I think it depends on how we're using the term "ported".  If someone does something like say, takes DT85's stormtrooper model (he's granted people permission to do this), increases the chest plate to make room for boobs, then removes the helmet head and replaces it with a head of a model they made of Taylor Swift and then puts it up and says "Oi, I made this (and used DT's stormtrooper as the base)".  Its all good.

 

If we're talking something like....

"Oh hai, here is Master Chief that I ripped from Halo 3 and weighted for y'all and converted for JKA"

That's a no no and doesn't belong at all.

[ChalklYne]

Well, I am referring to ported as in ripped from a licensed game from an artist we cant contact. I agree on your terms completely!

[Futuza]

The case I'm unsure about is when they take Cortana's head ripped from Halo 4 and then stick it on their own body, and then say "Oh hai, here is a chick I made, I used Cortana's head."

 

Then I'm kind of like...well it's sort of original...but you still stole the head...ehhhhh

[ChalklYne]

Aaaand... ill be honest so its all out there... I complaining about ported material on a game I bootlegged originally lol. So yeah, theres that. If that makes my point any less valid, so be it. I honeztly feels as if you should get manny llamas' email address and asked him permission to port your stuff, in which case he will ask you to refer to your EULA lol. Why port it anyway?? This engine just doesnt do well with high polygonal stuff. It needs to be recreated to function properly. You can use ripped models as reference and remesh it to your liking, fitting the jka skeleton on the joints correctly. You can then also refine textures, add packs and helmets and stuff.

 

Heres my problems with ports aside from the creativity aspect.

 

If you combine the ported material with the rest, youre combining high poly and low poly and people unfamiliar with the site might have online issues with stuff like that, not only ruining thier experience, but also whoever is on the sercer thats lagging out over all these 12000 polygon models. We almost have an entire archive of original, properly functioning, less graphics expensive material... why throw it in with all the mangled stuff?

 

If you separate them, and we have an issue over copyright stuff, or something crazy lik that, we have an easily collapsable section we can just quarantine or shut down if it gets lawyer crazy.

 

If you combine them, it is too difficult for experienced modelers who just check in with the site to help, to locate criticism they can give without reading through an entire thread and realising its ported.

 

The porting system is already being handled terribly, as I see the stuff that is ported doesnt mention that its ported anywhere noticeable, and the whole comments section is flooded with people giving praise for how accurate your model is. Maybe they upload it somewhere else and put you as the creator? Thats bs and im already seeing it happen.

[Circa]

Can you give an example of the ported content you're referring to?

[ChalklYne]

Ok Ill contact you with specific links and hopefully if we catch it now, future ported submissions can follow the same format.

That would solve that portion of the porting problem.

 

Any way we can have a tag like the "Pinned" one that flags the tgread as having ported material? Something.

Id prefer it to be in its own section so I can avoid it. If I block specific people, do I still see thier threads?

 

See, its almost as if I should be separated instead. Maybe Ive lost vision as to what this site offers and stands for. If its just a file sharing site then I understand and for modeling specific stuff, I can venture elsewhere to give and receive criticism and just come here to host the mod? Either way, at first I was urked about it... but it has slowly grown into an overall disappointment that these issues werent addressed in my absence lol.

 

"Chalks gone, port everythings!!1!

 

Then I show back up and it went from the Home Depot of modding, to kinda Walmart tbh

[Circa]

Ok Ill contact you with specific links and hopefully if we catch it now, future ported submissions can follow the same format.

That would solve that portion of the porting problem.

 

Any way we can have a tag like the "Pinned" one that flags the tgread as having ported material? Something.

Id prefer it to be in its own section so I can avoid it. If I block specific people, do I still see thier threads?

 

See, its almost as if I should be separated instead. Maybe Ive lost vision as to what this site offers and stands for. If its just a file sharing site then I understand and for modeling specific stuff, I can venture elsewhere to give and receive criticism and just come here to host the mod? Either way, at first I was urked about it... but it has slowly grown into an overall disappointment that these issues werent addressed in my absence lol.

 

"Chalks gone, port everythings!!1!

 

Then I show back up and it went from the Home Depot of modding, to kinda Walmart tbh

Our porting policy is a bit looser than it was 3 years ago, yes. But it states that a file can't contain 100% ported content. If someone ports a head model from another game and puts it on Kyle's body, they must have done more than just that to qualify it as their own "mod" and most definitely have to state that the model is ported. It's the same thing with reskins of models that people didn't create. 

 

With that said, if you're just talking about threads that talk about ported content, then that's always been around and frankly I think it would be silly to shut down every mention of it. If that were the case then I'd have to shut this thread down!

 

I understand that you'd be upset with people taking something that isn't their creation and claiming it as their own, but we can only do so much. We can't control what people do with their free time. Threads with ported content are watched closely. Files with ported content are scrutinized more than any other file that we get. That's why you don't see hardly any in the files section.

[ChalklYne]

And as you can clearly see by the polls... jkhub is drastically split down the middle over the subject. Civil war.

[Ruxith]

I think you forget that this is a community website, not "specifically" an artist website like polycount or the like. If people want to post content that they are creating/modifying for the game in the "Art, media & technology" section then who are you to tell them that they can't, or that their post HAS to be tagged as ported content as if they're doing something wrong. Do you think you're above them or something? You still get compliments and criticism on your work when you post WIP of your models, and if you requested the more knowledgeable members of the community (3d Modellers/artists) for critiques on your work then you would receive it. I don't really get why you have been making such a big deal out of everything lately with this ported/frankensteining topic.

 

If anything the ease of being able to "frankenstein" models together recently has given a lot of people in the community a reason to create content rather than simply sitting back and wait on others. People are now able to communicate clearer together about possible mods and ideas rather than just requesting it and expecting someone to create a model from scratch for them. More people are now able to create customised models for jka, you need to see the positive side of this situation. If you want to tell everyone off for making a model they want to use in the game simply because you think it's insulting for you, because you've given yourself the title of an "artist" as you've decided to bite the bullet and create the 3d models from scratch, then I think you're hanging around on the wrong forum.

 

As I said, if you want critiques then ask for it, but don't go giving all of the guys who are learning frankensteining or then deciding to go further, to learn weighing and adding a 3d object onto their model from outside of jka a hard time and saying that it insults YOU. If anything it's a starting point for them to actually learn the basics of 3d modelling. If you haven't caught up on things lately, there are people who you'll be classing under the "frankensteining" group that have started editing meshes, uv's etc and actually beginning to do some of the more complex tasks. Maybe they are now artists too. xD sorry i'm just fed up of this kind of drama, people ranting because they are upset about something minimal.

 

Fair play to you for wanting to create the 3d models from scratch, but I think it's just unfair that you are making such a big deal out of this and trying to discredit people who have learnt to frankenstein, weigh 3d models into jka and learn the whole process. You forget, these people have also had to learn their way around the 3d applications too, it's not like they just click a button and it's all done for them. They do still have the same level as respect that they did have for people like yourself, Psyk0, DT, Ashura, Scerendo etc who do create fantastic models for jka and in general, it's just that frankensteining gives everyone else a little bit of creative freedom to design something that they want to have in jka themselves, something we couldn't do all those years ago unless it was just editing textures and shaders.

[ChalklYne]

Fine. Ill tolerate it with a resentful meh.

 

Just know all you little porters... I used to have your level of skills. Then I took my skirt off and manned up.

 

Thanks for explaining it @@Circa, I withdraw my Walmart comparison.

 

Im just going to throw it out there that I took this subject personally lol

Driving wrecklessly and what not. Discombobulated

[ChalklYne]

@@Ruxith

I can totally see your point of views, but I think they are disinclined to learn the harder stuff if they can just copy it over.

It is disrespectful. Thats the hardest part to relate to if you dont do it yourself. I spent a whole weekend in the crotch of a wookie learning to rig fake cloth! Its disrespectful to see someone just snatching somebodys weekend and not even asking. These game artists are contactable.

I took a full day of contemplating my view before I really started this, and I realized from the start that my point of view would be an unpopular one. Maybe its like calling a judge "sir"... its like, no, i spent years as a sir now im your honor. Would you expect that judge to sit in a room full of regular citizens all calling themselves your honor? No, he'd burn the f*ckin place to the ground.

 

No worries gentlemen, ive spoken my peace abd will quietly tolerate now

[Ruxith]

Everyone has to start somewhere, fortunately for people nowadays it's been made far simpler, as they've been given a head start with 3d models for jka. You can't blame them when it's all been handed out on a plate, making frankensteining very straight forward. But atleast the majority have started expanding into learning to do more with the models than simply swap objects and maintain weights. They've used frankensteining almost as a template, a guide to enable them to edit their own models and weigh objects themselves. It does have it's positive side too from all of this.

 

I get why you're mad, but it's not entirely their fault. I just see it as a positive thing as it brings more creative minds to the table. So many communities i've been in over the years where the only creative people are those making forum signatures, or changing the colour of a texture for a skin. This atleast opens the doors a bit to see how creative people can be when they have free roam. I see frankensteining almost as a sandbox for 3d modelling, like garrys mod in a way. By no means would I ever rate someone who only does frankensteining to that of a 3d artist but I like to see what people can come up with and the ideas people have that many of us would have had years ago when frankensteining and editing models was a chore in itself.

[Futuza]

@ChalklYneI think the issue you're talking about is not porting itself, but lack of accreditation and stealing other peoples work.

[ChalklYne]

Im not 100% sure which part is the worst tbh. Im just going to trust in the Hub and consider my point of view documented.

[Futuza]

Im not 100% sure which part is the worst tbh. Im just going to trust in the Hub and consider my point of view documented.

I mean, you don't care if I port your models as long as I explain to people who I share my ported models with what parts on them you made, right?  Especially if I ask for permission before publishing it?

[ChalklYne]

I am literally ONLY concerned with models ripped from another game and brought into jka. i dont consider what youre talking about as porting, but more like frankensteining, which is wayyy cooler.

[ChalklYne]

I think I would like to be a bigger part of the solution.

Im debating starting a completely jka based video modeling tutorial for Softimage. Id like to combine it with a .zip that has a base male and female mesh to start from. Maybe team it with minis skeleton and animation rig, and just have it be almost easier to create your own, than refit stuff and not feel accomplished

[Ruxith]

Ashura recently released a base male & female base mesh on jkhub which you could possibly use? Unless you're planning on creating a video where you show the process to creating your mesh and putting it into jka; to then providing it in the source files for when people view it and start creating their own.. is that what you're saying? Essentially creating a basic/generic model from scratch for jka, and recording the process, then providing the source files.

 

Most people are using blender atm afaik, simply because of the frankensteining files, but the other half are using 3DS Max.. isn't softimage kind of obselete now? Don't hold me to that I don't know enough about all of the modelling programs xD

[ChalklYne]

I just figured because it has the free mod tool version. Yeah, let em learn blender then.

 

I was unaware that the site had changed its terms in such a manner.

 

I look at a playermodel download that requires five or six different permissions on it as just kind of goofy with all the resources around you. I appreciate anyones effort spent regardless so Ill just shush about it.

[Kualan]

Frankensteining and kitbashing, for me, has been a great stepping stone in familiarising myself with 3D modelling tools - specifically Blender. Folks might have noticed me being pretty quiet around here these days - that's because I'm actually using the Blender skills I built up in JKA and am using them to mod Skyrim a lot these days. I wouldn't know my arse from my elbow in Blender if it wasn't for first learning how to use it via JKA - all of which starting from frankensteining.

 

Back to OP's point - naturally, as someone who uses all sorts of work to put these mash-ups together, I have a more tolerant view when it comes to this sort of thing (porting and the like). However there is something I would like to echo my support for in this thread - and that's the idea of basic-level courtesy.

 

@@ChalklYne absolutely captures my own sense of distaste when it comes to viewing the Mod Requests forum and seeing it filled up with specific requests to port characters like Luke from Battlefront or whatever. The Hub has a stated policy on porting, and it offers modders a great deal of flexibility so long as they are willing to accept accountability, but I don't believe people blatantly requesting ports should be acceptable. But what really grinds my gears, and it's something mentioned in the OP, is when people compare original JKA modelling work to ports or potential ports in a disparaging way. That really gets to me.

 

e.g. "That Jar Jar Binks model you've made looks bad, why not just port it from ____?" is not constructive criticism. It is not helpful to the modder and is very disrespectful. When people put themselves out there and take up something like modelling - something that has a steep learning curve - then criticism is to be expected, but negatively comparing people's original work to ports just shoots down any motivation for that modeller to continue to learn, work and improve their finished product.

 

I've never received these comments myself (so far as I can remember) but it disheartens me to see them in other people's threads as I have no doubt it must drain them of any incentive to continue. It needs to stop.

[ChalklYne]

@@Kualan

You pretty much hit it right on the head. Like I said though, its not a point of view you can grasp if you havent been there I guess

[Mandalorian]

 You dont have to know how to rig or weight, just how to extrude a part seperate it tweak it  re-uv it and viola new model part.this trick should be taught in the hopes that instead of porting,its just as easy to make you own low poly jka ready version. easier actually.

I mean like a base mesh already in .glm with non textured uvs a skin file and a tutorial on the process.people could make packs of things like backpacks helms, just heads, ready to frankenstein. I much prefer kitbashing than porting and chalknye your right to be annoyed by ported content and probably frankensteiners like me, you did the hard work that some people are to lazy to do or to dumb (me lol)

 

[Circa]

I haven't noticed too many of those situations though, and when they do, the community almost always has the back of the one creating a model on their own.

 

In fact, the amount of praise and appreciation in this community to legit modelers making legit models is 100:1 compared to those that port or even frankenstein/kitbash. People like DT, Ashura, Scerendo, Psyk0sith, etc. have shown that the community can make better looking models than ported models do, in most cases. I'd rather have Toshi's Luke than a port from BFII. It looks tons better. Those models aren't made for this engine, they won't look as good as when people make models for this game in mind.

 

With all that said, sometimes people want a certain model in another game really bad, for some reason. With the lack of good modelers around, not every request gets fulfilled. And telling them to learn to model themselves is silly, in my opinion. You don't go to a mechanic asking them to fix your car and expect them to say "DO IT YOURSELF, I LEARNED, YOU CAN TOO!" - it doesn't make sense. Yes, maybe every few poor souls take up that demand and learn to model and end up really good at it, but it drives me nuts when people push that on requesters. But that hasn't been that much of a problem these days. Maybe that's because I shut it down when I see it? Who knows.

 

Anyway...

[Jeff]

@@ChalklYne are you referring to content from my thread? I have nothing but respect for the work you do but I'm not sure if your referring to me being a problem or not. If you have a problem all I ask is say so, it takes a lot to offend me. I only port because I'm making a massive personal mod and if I were to do every model from scratch I'd finish sometime around 2057. If the posts bother you I can always stop posting in the thread, I can't control people requesting things like Luke from the new Battlefront and if you think it's bad in the thread you should read my PM's and some of the ridiculous requests I get daily.    I don't post anything for praise, it's fucking stupid and quite frankly I don't give a shit. I only do it to be helpful to others who want a certain model.  

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