A Certain Togruta

[AshuraDX]

@@Cerez the nose also feels off

[Cerez]

@@Cerez the nose also feels off

 

How so?

[JAWSFreelao]

Just off of my eye test, it feels as if the nose is a little too rounded out.

[Cerez]

Well, Padme's nose is rounder compared to her Clone Wars counterpart, too, and Ahsoka has a rounder nose in the cartoon show than Padme... 

 

The current texture does make it look a little rounder than the actual's model's nose is, though. I may try to play with that a little bit.

[JAWSFreelao]

The upward curvature also gives a bit of a.. Curious take to it.

[AshuraDX]

@@Cerez I don't know somehow that nose looks swollen to me - try reducing the height of the nosewings a little

pm me if you use skype - should speed up communication

[Cerez]

 

I think it's mostly in the texture. Maybe where the nostrils meet the vertex needs to be pushed down a bit. I'll see what I can do about it...

[Milamber]

Here's a little comparison exercise, just for fun.

 

 

I can see that the lips still need work...

 

kinda makes me think of:

 

 

 

[Mandalorian]

I think it is great but the eyes need to be slightly more almond shaped and lower. 

Its certainly close to the rebels Ashoka. Good job rigging, I still can't figure it out.

[Cerez]

I think it is great but the eyes need to be slightly more almond shaped and lower. 

 

I've moved the pupils just a tad lower, but almond shaped?? 

 

 

Its certainly close to the rebels Ashoka.

 

I'm aiming for a realistic take on the Clone Wars Ahsoka. I'm not a fan of her Rebels look. But I guess there's a point where I will meet them both half-way with realism.

[JAWSFreelao]

 

 

 

 

 

This is driving me nuts.

[eezstreet]

Your polyflow looks pretty jacked up, especially around the nose and upper lip / "stache" area. I think modelling in tris is a bad idea, you should probably stick to quads as they are easier to work with and you'll get nicer results. But for a beginner model, this is pretty great work.

[minilogoguy18]

Yeah, the topology honestly looks like a base Raven model which is not good at all.

 

http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/FaceTopology

[Cerez]

@@eezstreet, @@minilogoguy18 

 

Okay, there's a point where I appreciate constructive criticism, and there's a point where you're just being plain discouraging. The model is "jacked" up in topology around the nose and lips area for a good reason: we needed to be able to tweak it and shape it into what would make a realistic face for Ahsoka. Have you ever tried interpreting a cartoon character design into a realistic human face? It's not easy.

 

There is no rule that says you can't model in tris. That's bull**. Sure, quads can deform nicer, but when you're working with low poly characters, tris are often a good way to bring the poly count down.

 

And sure, the topology is much like a Raven model. Hell, that was the objective! To create a good model of Ahsoka for the Jedi Academy game. It may not be as detailed as you like to design your models in, but that certainly doesn't make it bad in any regard. Face it guys, base JKA is low poly and an old game. If you've created a new model that matches the quality of the Raven models, you've done a great job -- you've done what is "professionally" required for the game. Anything beyond that is your own ambitions. Don't push that onto other people. Don't be selfish.

 

And don't go telling me that the model is below expected quality. It is not. If you're wondering why I got offended, think about what you both just said. Put yourself in my shoes.

[AshuraDX]

Okay, there's a point where I appreciate constructive criticism, and there's a point where you're just being plain discouraging. The model is "jacked" up in topology around the nose and lips area for a good reason: we needed to be able to tweak it and shape it into what would make a realistic face for Ahsoka. Have you ever tried interpreting a cartoon character design into a realistic human face? It's not easy.

 

There is no rule that says you can't model in tris. That's bull**. Sure, quads can deform nicer, but when you're working with low poly characters, tris are often a good way to bring the poly count down.

 

And sure, the topology is much like a Raven model. Hell, that was the objective! To create a good model of Ahsoka for the Jedi Academy game. It may not be as detailed as you like to design your models in, but that certainly doesn't make it bad in any regard. Face it guys, base JKA is low poly and an old game. If you've created a new model that matches the quality of the Raven models, you've done a great job -- you've done what is "professionally" required for the game. Anything beyond that is your own ambitions. Don't push that onto other people. Don't be selfish.

 

And don't go telling me that the model is below expected quality. It is not. If you're wondering why I got offended, think about what you both just said. Put yourself in my shoes.

 

Okay - this not offensive in anyway - I just want to help clear up a bnig misunderstanding here

you'll notice I highligted a few phrases in your reply there

lemme get through them :

 

Green :

while everything you said there is absolutely true - you seem to miss the point @eez was getting at

quads don't just deform better - they are easier to work with and it's a lot easier to adjust the shape of a model made in quads

to show this I quickly made this :

 

you see 4 identical faces, 2 are triangulated and one is left as a quad

 

aslnog as they are flat - there is literally no difference to be seen

But if I move the top right vertex you'll notice a difference between the left triangulated plane and the toher 2

the nice thing about working with quads is that they'll allways assume a convex shape if you move a vertex in a direction similiar to it's normal direction and a concave shape if you move a vertex in negative facing normal direction (second is not shown here)

now check out the triangulated quad on the elft - it's shape is concave even though I moved the vertex in normal direction - this shape is forced on the model by "bad" triangulation - while you mgiht need this sometimes you'll find yourself needing the exact opposite here

 

Now you said using tris is a good way to optimize lowpoly models - and that is true but lemme show you something I just retouched in photoshop....

(I only did the left side of the lekku - could have done more but it's a pain in the ass to do )

you see ? you could easily have modeled that in quads and I bet your friend who you said began the model did that

the model was jsut triangulated in the process of moving it inbetween software which is now giving you allmost twice the amount of faces to work with which is just a tedious process

and altering the shape is not as easy as it would be with a quad based model - just remember what I have shown/told you above

you'll also see that working in tris didn't save you anything here but isntead just has the potential to cause a lot of annoying trouble

 

Blue :

 

again you seem to have missed the point @@minilogoguy18 and @@eezstreet were making

I assume you didn't even bother to actually take a closer look at what @@minilogoguy18 posted there (do it NOW,  it's your new Bible )

because if you did you would have seen this :

the left model there is a perfect exmaple for good, lowpoly facial topology this will deform a lot better than the topology used by raven, but with jedi academys terrible facial animation system it'S not THAT important but still important to have nice topology - their point was not about geometrical detail/polycount it was purely about functionality - so think about things people tell you before you feel offended and take the time to read what they are telling/showing you.

 

also take a look at this head I made a few years ago :

the shape has changed since that point, but the topology stayed more or less the same - and this still isn't perfect

 

Orange :

 

Oh this is in no way below expected quality - in fact I expected something worse (truth to be told eh ? )

this is actually looking pretty good for a first model !

 

BUT you had absolutely NO reason to feel offended here - people have been trieing to help you by :

a. giving a suggestion how working with this model could become a lot easier

b. make it look better in the process

 

and about this last sentence "Put yourself in my shoes." :

I've been there, learned from it and grew as an artist

 

Now I hope you learned soemthing from this - if you feel offended AGAIN I can only shake my head and say I tried

[DT.]

I'd just like to say that your finished model can have some tris due to optimisation. Trying to make the finished model 100% quads doesn't usually work when you need to keep the tri count as low as possible while retaining quality from certain angles.

[Cerez]

Okay, but what does this all have to do with what I'm working on now? The model is finished, designed as it is. I don't need a lecture about it, now. I'm trying to finish what I've started, and you're all keeping me from it.

 

When I asked for help on the forums for someone experienced to work with me on this project, you all kept silent. Now that I've actually done something that works and looks good, you are all criticising it. You know what? I don't want to hear it! Keep your expert criticism to yourselves.

 

I will do it my way, and it'll work well. It already does.

 

And I don't know where you get the idea that this is what a beginner's model should look like. If you truly believe that, then you are deceiving yourselves. As far as the game goes, this is a top quality model.

[AshuraDX]

Okay, but what does this all have to do with what I'm working on now? The model is finished, designed as it is. I don't need a lecture about it, now. I'm trying to finish what I've started, and you're all keeping me from it.

 

When I asked for help on the forums for someone experienced to work with me on this project, you all kept silent. Now that I've actually done something that works and looks good, you are all criticising it. You know what? I don't want to hear it! Keep your expert criticism to yourselves.

 

I will do it my way, and it'll work well. It already does.

 

And I don't know where you get the idea that this is what a beginner's model should look like. If you truly believe that, then you are deceiving yourselves. As far as the game goes, this is a top quality model.

 

if you want to keep this model that way it's fine - it's your choice

I just want you to keep those things in mind to make your next model even better than this one

 

especially with @eezstreets lip syncing project that may become usable sometime you'll want to have a model that deforms incredibly well - and good topology is key to that

 

and where the hell did you get the idea that everyone believes this is what a beginners model should look like ?!

 

Also : this is a decent model for this game - but not a top quality model, go and check out some of DT's or hapslashs work to see some top quality work

[minilogoguy18]

You wanted criticism so I linked you to a page that can HELP you.

 

It seems that if someone isn't giving you the up most praise you're feelings are otherwise hurt so I'm not going to feel bad about it.

 

You said you asked for help on the model while it was in progress but I didn't see any of that, the first post in this thread is the model already in game, not a screenshot of 3d software with just a head and nothing else. The mesh was done before you even asked.

[Boothand]

With so many skilled people here, of course there's going to be suggestions on how it could be better, both workflow and model-wise when you post a WIP . If you don't feel like changing the model now, you'll have plenty of time to look into polyflow and such for later models.. I started that relatively late, but have really appreciated feedback and lessons on that over the years. But it's not urgent. My first model for the game was pretty horrible, but my second one (in my avatar) is actually not too unpopular in JK2, despite some quirkyness.

 

Your model is pretty good for a first one! For now, just try to get used to the process of UV-mapping and weighting the model and getting into the game without too much trouble.. and if you want to do bigger tweaks later on, perhaps look into some of the things that have been said about polyflow, and keeping it squares (except where you need to tri into bigger detail) is also easier on the eye Perhaps you could try retopology later, which actually is a pretty fun technique to model organic stuff. Basically - you have the shape (for example an un-optimal model, or a sculpt) and then you just click and draw out the topology edge by edge.

[z3filus]

Don't take it so personally @@Cerez, the model looks good. Definetly the best Ahsoka for Jedi Academy.
I don't know shit 'bout modelling, but this is all constructive criticism. Take it like a man and release tthis Jedi scum.


 

[Circa]

I think it looks good, pal. People are just trying to help you out, no harm done. Either take it or leave it. Not a big deal. If you're finished, then release and be done with it. Looking forward to trying it out in-game.

[eezstreet]

I said it was a great model for a beginner. This is your first model, yes? That would definitely put you in the category of a beginner, and objectively it's a pretty great model for a beginner. If someone with experience like Ashura, Chalk, minilogoguy, Gir, etc put out something like this, I would naturally be a bit confused. I'm not sure I understand the offense? :?

 

I always critique people's models based on polyflow- I don't know a damned thing about working with the tools to sculpt or producing a good texture - those are a bit beyond me. But if I see a nasty set of triangles, then that's easy for me to recognize. I mentioned quads because they're easier to work with in a lot of ways since you have fewer edges and faces to work with. Some things are just easier to represent via quads anyway, like the upper lip.

 

Part of the learning process is making mistakes and then learning from them. In this case you've made a rather common mistake: Getting it ingame before getting the mesh critiqued.

 

Have a look at the resources that the others have provided, they'll give you some pointers.

[DT.]

No one's dissing the quality of the model, it's very well done. We just are recommending that you model in quads rather than tris, and work on your topology so everything flows. Having decent topology & modelling in quads is also handy if you ever decide to make a model and want to make a high definition model out of it, whether sculpting or hard surface modelling. Like I said though, the finished model ready for the game can have tris due to optimisation.

 

You should be very proud of this model though, I've seen and done absolute crap looking models for first attempts. You definately got skills and I can't wait to see what you make next.

[Sithani]

OHMYGOD you're still doing that...