Porting Discussion, redux

[eezstreet]

Original discussion went nowhere, staff just reworded the same rules. Like this post if you agree, we need to reach a different conclusion.

 

My original point still stands.

 

Ported material is okay, so long as the entirety of the project doesn't consist of a port. (Ported model with different texture = okay; a mod consisting entirely of ripped music = bad)

 

If a company submits a claim against JKHub for the offending content, whatever legal penalties are incurred on the uploading party, not on the Hub itself.

 

Remove "Acknowledged Rules" section of download page (Always "yes" so what's the point of telling the downloader this?)

Remove lots of the required readme sections (don't include a template, it just confuses people)

[Lamented]

Yeah.

 

Wth is with that?

[MoonDog]

I don't know. It was actually a really good discussion for a while, then it sort of just spiraled out of control a few times, stalled and crashed into a mountain.

[Futuza]

Can you restate your argument, I could go put all your posts together, but it would probably benefit more people then just me if you had it all in one place.

[eezstreet]

Put my argument in the OP.

[Futuza]

If a company submits a claim against JKHub for the offending content, whatever legal penalties are incurred on the uploading party, not on the Hub itself

Seems difficult to enforce, especially since the uploading party may have done it anonymously (registered account, but fake email and proxy ip) and then JKHUB could get into hairy legal situations...

Although I agree that this is a nice idea, I don't know that it is realistic.  If JKHub hosts illegal content it would still be liable, in my opinion, if it doesn't respond to requests to remove the illegal content within a reasonable amount of time.  Courts don't always care that it isn't the hosting site's fault it was hosted - even if the user agreed to be responsible for uploaded content, as far as I understand it.

 

Ported material is okay, so long as the entirety of the project doesn't consist of a port. (Ported model with different texture = okay; a mod consisting entirely of ripped music = bad)

 

I'm okay as long as the original source is cited so others know where the content came from.

[Circa]

Remove "Acknowledged Rules" section of download page (Always "yes" so what's the point of telling the downloader this?)

Remove lots of the required readme sections (don't include a template, it just confuses people)

Okay, the Acknowledged Rules isn't always "yes". It's an option that asks the uploader if they have read and acknowledge the rules. You can't proceed unless you say yes. I know, anyone can just lie about it, but they check that they read it, so they are responsible for knowing the rules.

 

The readme template is there for people that don't know how to write a proper one. There are many new modders here that can benefit from it. You'd be surprised how many readme files I see that just have their name and the title of the mod in it.

 

 

 

We have already shifted the responsibility of the file on the uploader, but that isn't always the answer, as Futuza said. Could end up being really messy.

 

[Link]

... You're kidding, right? The rules were re-written and make it clear that you can upload pretty much anything as long as it is a JK2/JK3 file. So if you uploaded a ported model, it would go through and if the company whose game you ported it from has a dispute against that, they can raise it and request to have it taken down. We can't check every file to ensure that it belongs to uploader. It is up to the uploader to get permission and the responsibility is entirely on them to clear that up.

 

I don't know how many times I've repeated this. It now does exactly what you state you wanted from the porting discussion whilst giving content owners a clear way to get their content taken down if they wish to do so.

[Ory'Hara]

lol, silink, thats not what he was working for, lol. the rules are still extreme, nothing got changed, just reworded, and we all know, 350's MOT, breaker

[Link]

Any way, to address your points directly as Circa did as well:

 

 

Ported material is okay, so long as the entirety of the project doesn't consist of a port. (Ported model with different texture = okay; a mod consisting entirely of ripped music = bad)

 

If a company submits a claim against JKHub for the offending content, whatever legal penalties are incurred on the uploading party, not on the Hub itself.

 

Remove "Acknowledged Rules" section of download page (Always "yes" so what's the point of telling the downloader this?)

Remove lots of the required readme sections (don't include a template, it just confuses people)

 

Ported models can go through however if it comes to light from the author of those files never gave you permission and wishes to have it taken down, then it will.

 

The full responsibility and claim is on the uploader of the content, we work with both sides to ensure we can come to a resolution that suits the person in the right. This is figured out by the providing of evidence from the person making the claim. If it's strong, then that file will be taken down and the uploader will be informed of this.

 

The Acknowledged Rules needs to stay to ensure that the person agrees they have read the rules we're talking about here. If someone makes a claim to us and the uploader of the file in question says he was ignorant of the rules, then the blame is then put on JKHub for not making these as clear as possible to be aware of. Any one who doesn't see the Rules page, will know one exists before hitting the submit button. The reason it is on the actual download page is to allow the person making the dispute to see that the uploader said he agreed to the rules... the person making the claim will more than likely not know how our website works so they won't know if the uploader had to agree to those rules or not beforehand.

 

I used to agree with you about the readme removal, but when I thought about it in more detail it became clear that it is a smart thing to do to include one in your file. I've seen game file sites rip content from other websites without the uploaders knowledge... if a site did this to our files (It will eventually happen in all likelihood) then there would be no knowledge of whom it came from... just a pk3 in a zip file. This, again, is to protect the content holder/uploader.

 

You have to think of this from the view of someone who has never submitted a file before. 

 

Is there something I'm missing here which is obvious to you/those who liked your post ? I'm honestly curious because I feel this really does cover the problem very well, I've done my best to explain the individual issues you have with this.

[redsaurus]

The main thing is that jkhub is now covered, which is all that really matters.

[DT.]

Uploaders of ported content could just post a link from their dropbox, rather than uploading to JKHub. This site would come to no harm, and all would be well.

[Link]

Uploaders won't come to any harm though. Instead of going directly to the uploader, the owner of the original content would submit a request through the staff following the procedures listed on the Rules page, this would then be resolved by JKHub's staff who would be the middle man between the dispute. 

 

If the content in question is found to be on our website without consent and the owner of the content wishes to have it taken down, then it will. Otherwise it will remain up. This is resolved without having to resort to any potential legal battles (However unlikely it might be that this would happen) where the person in the right always wins. 

 

Surely this is fair for both sides, is it not? Obviously I'm missing something though XD

[eezstreet]

Okay, the Acknowledged Rules isn't always "yes". It's an option that asks the uploader if they have read and acknowledge the rules. You can't proceed unless you say yes. I know, anyone can just lie about it, but they check that they read it, so they are responsible for knowing the rules.

 

You're missing the point of what I'm saying. The _downloader_ does not need to know that the uploader acknowledges the rules. It's kinda assumed that they "acknowledged" the rules, otherwise the site wouldn't host the file...so why even display that to a downloader if it's always going to be "Yes"? It's wasted screen real-estate as far as I'm concerned.

 

The readme template is there for people that don't know how to write a proper one. There are many new modders here that can benefit from it. You'd be surprised how many readme files I see that just have their name and the title of the mod in it.

And what's wrong with that? I usually write a simple readme like that too because I CBA, especially for simple PK3s.

 

We have already shifted the responsibility of the file on the uploader, but that isn't always the answer, as Futuza said. Could end up being really messy.

So what's the problem? You've shifted the responsibility onto the uploader. How could that wind up being messy? 

 

... You're kidding, right? The rules were re-written and make it clear that you can upload pretty much anything as long as it is a JK2/JK3 file. So if you uploaded a ported model, it would go through and if the company whose game you ported it from has a dispute against that, they can raise it and request to have it taken down. We can't check every file to ensure that it belongs to uploader. It is up to the uploader to get permission and the responsibility is entirely on them to clear that up.

 

I don't know how many times I've repeated this. It now does exactly what you state you wanted from the porting discussion whilst giving content owners a clear way to get their content taken down if they wish to do so.

Oh? Because all I see is just a reworded rehash of the same thing. It says "Illegal content will be removed if our moderators find it" <-- this isn't the same thing as what I said at all, and it seems you weren't paying attention to a word I've said.

 

Semi ported content = ok

All ported content = not ok

 

current rule, unchanged: ported stuff is not okay period

Yet we still have skins with ripped sounds. We still aren't allowed to use ported meshes with modified textures. This rule is fundamentally broken and nobody seems to understand this.

 

lol, silink, thats not what he was working for, lol. the rules are still extreme, nothing got changed, just reworded, and we all know, 350's MOT, breaker

 

Hats off to this thread for making me actually agree with Ory'Hara for once.

Any way, to address your points directly as Circa did as well:

 

 

 

Ported models can go through however if it comes to light from the author of those files never gave you permission and wishes to have it taken down, then it will.

 

The full responsibility and claim is on the uploader of the content, we work with both sides to ensure we can come to a resolution that suits the person in the right. This is figured out by the providing of evidence from the person making the claim. If it's strong, then that file will be taken down and the uploader will be informed of this.

 

The Acknowledged Rules needs to stay to ensure that the person agrees they have read the rules we're talking about here. If someone makes a claim to us and the uploader of the file in question says he was ignorant of the rules, then the blame is then put on JKHub for not making these as clear as possible to be aware of. Any one who doesn't see the Rules page, will know one exists before hitting the submit button. The reason it is on the actual download page is to allow the person making the dispute to see that the uploader said he agreed to the rules... the person making the claim will more than likely not know how our website works so they won't know if the uploader had to agree to those rules or not beforehand.

 

I used to agree with you about the readme removal, but when I thought about it in more detail it became clear that it is a smart thing to do to include one in your file. I've seen game file sites rip content from other websites without the uploaders knowledge... if a site did this to our files (It will eventually happen in all likelihood) then there would be no knowledge of whom it came from... just a pk3 in a zip file. This, again, is to protect the content holder/uploader.

 

You have to think of this from the view of someone who has never submitted a file before. 

 

Is there something I'm missing here which is obvious to you/those who liked your post ? I'm honestly curious because I feel this really does cover the problem very well, I've done my best to explain the individual issues you have with this.

tl;dr version - "I don't comprehend what you're saying but I'm going to defend the Hub's actions!?!"

[redsaurus]

If jkhub allow what you're suggesting @@eezstreet, it means that they're endorsing ported stuff, which is bad right? With the current rules the only ported content is stuff that "hasn't been noticed" by the staff - so jkhub is hopefully protected.

[Link]

If jkhub allow what you're suggesting @@eezstreet, it means that they're endorsing ported stuff, which is bad right? With the current rules the only ported content is stuff that "hasn't been noticed" by the staff - so jkhub is hopefully protected.

 

Indeed, in the same way Google handles YouTube content that isn't obviously copyrighted. A complaint is made to Google, Google raise it with the user, user takes action in one way or another, case resolved.

[eezstreet]

Except Google doesn't outright ban the content..

[Kualan]

Original discussion went nowhere, staff just reworded the same rules. Like this post if you agree, we need to reach a different conclusion.

 

My original point still stands.

 

Ported material is okay, so long as the entirety of the project doesn't consist of a port. (Ported model with different texture = okay; a mod consisting entirely of ripped music = bad)

 

If a company submits a claim against JKHub for the offending content, whatever legal penalties are incurred on the uploading party, not on the Hub itself.

 

Remove "Acknowledged Rules" section of download page (Always "yes" so what's the point of telling the downloader this?)

Remove lots of the required readme sections (don't include a template, it just confuses people)

 

Not sure why this needs pushing any further to be honest, mate. You seem to be expecting the staff to adopt a policy where they officially condone ported content of any kind - even partial ports like sounds would, if the rules were worded as you suggest, put the site directly in the firing line.

 

The current policy outlined by SiLink above gets you the exact same result, except without pre-determined legal liability on the part of the site. The way it is right now gives uploaders the freedom to host what they want, gives original content holders a means to get any ported work they own taken down, whilst simultaneously protecting the site from being held as legally responsible for anything that slips through.

 

If the site has an official policy outlined that says 'some ported content is okay, just not excessive', then they would effectively - from a legal standpoint - be throwing away their right to say "You can't blame us for what this person uploaded!". At best they could hope for shared responsibility, but ultimately the site would have removed a legal shield needlessly for the sake of pleasing someone's semantics.

 

As for removing the 'Acknowledged Rules' tag on file pages...you have a point in that it's kind of pointless from the downloader's perspective. But equally, does it impact negatively in any way? It seems like a non-entity.

[Link]

Except Google doesn't outright ban the content..

 

Actually they remove illegal content that is picked up by their systems during the upload process, they don't allow copyrighted material to be uploaded without the permission of the copyright holder.

 

If the video is not detected e.g. if someone raises the pitch on the audio and flips the video,  then it goes live on YouTube for the public to see until the copyright owner raises a complaint to have it removed.

 

 

YouTube:

If you plan to include copyright-protected material in your video, you will need to seek permission to do so first. YouTube cannot grant you these rights and we are unable to assist you in finding and contacting the parties who may be able to grant them to you. This is something you’ll have to research and handle on your own or with the assistance of a lawyer.

[eezstreet]

JKH shifts the responsibility onto the uploader, so I still have no idea what the problem is. You can either choose to say nothing and do nothing, or you can take action and remove all content with illegal stuff in it. It's a double standard to do what it is that's being done now. This is a Star Wars community; having content which is legally owned by LucasFilm being used repeatedly in sounds, skins, etc and yet these files are up, and widely shared/exported. If you choose to do nothing about a porting situation, then you should truly do nothing about it.

 

@@Kualan that kinda implies several things though, and you could always rework things so that the rules state the following:

"While our staff will not remove content which is ported, doing so puts the uploader at their own risk."

 

* sorry if that was highly incoherent, Thursdays are truly awful for me.

[Futuza]

How about: "We reserve the right to remove illegal content".  That way if it IS illegal, and a request to take it down is put in place- JKHub can do so and hopefully avoid legal entaglements.  HOWEVER, if no complaint is made, it stays up.  The staff might have the right to remove illegal content, but it doesn't mean they actually will.

[Link]

That's how it already is though

[eezstreet]

Not really? You said yourself that you remove ports automatically, I believe. That's not the same stance at all.

[Futuza]

 

• Any content illegally ported from another game will be denied if discovered by our staff during the review process or if reported by another user.

Very different.

[eezstreet]

Very different.

Okay, my bad. They're not allowed if it's found to be a port. Slightly different wording but my point still stands.