Porting Discussion

[Omicron]

  On 12/31/2013 at 9:58 PM, Deviance said:

[rage]

Eesh, no need to get so hostile man. I have no idea what you mean by Grievous-legged Maul, unless you mean it's the one he apparently made in Blender. (I don't have, or ever had any evidence to support this claim, but I could be wrong.)

The Greivus isn't as much of a loss, considering there is already a good one made by neomarz.

 

So you are going to start calling me a liar huh? I was considering about sending you that Grievous-legged Maul, if it's the same one that he uploaded here, but considering you're being so rude to me, I have decided against it. I apoligised, but you don't seem to accept it at all, and have gone all [angry] on me and AshuraDX.

[MoonDog]

  On 12/31/2013 at 9:58 PM, Deviance said:

Bullshit, Omicron! CWA only has that Grievous-legged Maul and Khameir made Maul in Blender.

Also, thanks for bitching about Savage again, a character nobody is willing to model. But I don't need JKHub's ****ing sponsorship to make him public

And finally, a Grievous that's better than a cartoony booger-ized version. Of course you have to throw that under the bus too

 

F*** JKHub. Thanks for removing my downloads, @@AshuraDX.

 

Sorry isn't enough to reduce a lie that made one of my Christmas presents go to waste.

 

It's been a pretty good discussion so far, let's just calm down a bit. Doesn't need to turn into an attack on the JKHub staff or other members. I like it when the discussions let reason prevail and good points are communicated on both sides. Lets just try to keep it like that for a bit.

 

I can concede pretty easily to these constraints.

 

  On 12/31/2013 at 9:36 PM, eezstreet said:

I already brought it up in this thread: fully ported content (duel music packs, 100% ripped models with no new textures/sounds (NEW, -not- base), 100% ripped maps, etc) would be bad, wheras content with some ported content and some not (ie the New Vegas trooper, which had new textures, the multitude of models with ripped sounds, maps with SW music etc etc etc) would be okay. Fully ported content is okay with -written- permission from the copyright holder.

 

All legal responsibility for content falls on the shoulders of the uploader; JKH cannot be responsible for 100% of its files because it might not know where they're ported from, same as how YouTube operates.

 

Get rid of this "Acknowledged Rules" crap on files, it's annoying and makes no sense.

 

This seems to me to be the most reasonable discourse regarding rules about ports. Technically, my entity mods can be construed as ports, but I've sufficiently altered the original BSP structures to create a work very much different from the originals while retaining that I did not make the original levels. Situations like that I'd be okay with. A ported asset, original flare, 110% acknowledgement of source material with no claim whatsoever to have had anything to do with's creation. Pretty much the definition of modification right there.

[Lamented]

It was a baseless claim without any evidence to support it! And no, I refer to the Season 4 Darth Maul as Grievous-legged, not Khameir's!

 

I already have Death Watch Maul, so I don't require your send...

 

Also, I searched for over an hour for a portable .obj that looks exactly like Khameir's Maul and I found nothing. You expect me not to get mad at you and AshuraDX for getting my file deleted baselessly--my Christmas present? How do you think Khameir feels, being shit on and called a porter just because he actually made a nice Maul for once!

 

"OH LOOK, A GOOD CLONE WARS MODEL MADE BY A MYSTERIOUS FOREIGNER! THIS MUST MEAN IT'S A PORT!"

[ChalklYne]

ahhhh ok... wow...Seems a little below the belt but 1 point for eez. XD

[therfiles]

It seems like we are picking apart a lot of nuances while disregarding the ideas behind a lot of these posts. @@eezstreet, it seems like you are advocating for an absolutely no porting policy while suggesting that we should allow ports used moderately. It's very confusing.

 

 

  On 12/31/2013 at 9:36 PM, eezstreet said:

 

You know what else is "impossible" to replicate, and yet gets copies illegally distributed of?

 

Sorry, "replicate" was a poor word choice. As modders, we can't create original content of Ewan McGregor's voice. We cannot. These sounds, like voices from the movies, are impossible for us, as modders, to re-create.

 

 

  Quote

 

What about all the expensive software used to make a model? What about all the expensive software used to make textures? What about all the expensive software used to write code?

I mean sure, you have free alternatives, but you also need a fairly high-end computer in order to run these tools, do you not? Aren't these fairly expensive too?

 

Certainly a valid point, but my argument was that it is beyond our bounds to acquire the original source material (actors, etc) to recreate it. Models and such can.

 

  Quote

 

so what you're saying is that it's alright to do stuff illegally because there's no other way unless you pay money...also kinda like pirating movies, games, or y'know, armed robbery, breaking and entering, shoplifting, heists, grand theft auto, etc etc

 

We are trying to find a solution to the porting problem in the modding community. Simply saying ports are linkable to major crimes and such doesn't help us resolve this issue, as we are trying to find a policy that covers the issue and doesn't ban it 100%.

 

  Quote

 

So you're perfectly okay with armed robbery, but not okay with ported models? WTF.

lol lets not argue for argument's sake here please

 

  Quote

 

Yep. I totally agree here. Moderators shouldn't be able to delete stuff like that willy-nilly. Omicron was just pointing out that the hub had several models which were ported, and now we have lost access to these models...

I knew I should have downloaded the New Vegas trooper.

 

I understand that the action was rash, but the mods were created 100% from ported materials which, under your and my ideas, should be removed. 

[Lamented]

  On 12/31/2013 at 10:26 PM, therfiles said:

I understand that the action was rash, but the mods were created 100% from ported materials which, under your and my ideas, should be removed. 

 

That is untrue...

 

I know this for a fact.

[Omicron]

@

I don't recall a Grievus legged maul ever getting uploaded here...

 

Do you have any evidence which shows he made the death Watch Maul? In the comments for it, people said it was a port, and considering he uploaded the ported savage at the same time, I think it's more than likely he ported Maul, even if you can't find it. But maybe I'm wrong about him porting it, perhaps he did make it, but i won't believe that until I see some LEGITIMATE evidence.

[Lamented]

  On 12/31/2013 at 10:36 PM, Omicron said:

@

I don't recall a Grievus legged maul ever getting uploaded here...

 

Do you have any evidence which shows he made the death Watch Maul? In the comments for it, people said it was a port, and considering he uploaded the ported savage at the same time, I think it's more than likely he ported Maul, even if you can't find it. But maybe I'm wrong about him porting it, perhaps he did make it, but i won't believe that until I see some LEGITIMATE evidence.

 

I said Grievous legged Maul was the only Maul in Clone Wars Adventures! ffs...

 

Secondly, there is no proof that there was a port, and I'd have Khameir deliver us a bit of evidence but, I see JKHub decided to treat him poorly and make him go.

 

BUT, I have evidence.

 

Quite clearly, Death Watch Maul was not a port. After several checks, CWA's Maul and Khameir's Maul are different in terms of texturizing. CWA's Maul's head model is different from Khameir's. The chest textures are different, Khameir's was not as correct (which I cleared up in my later version, which got DELETED!) To top it off, the CWA's Maul's Death Watch Robes were not saturated like Khameir's, nor did the cybernetic legs exist in Death Watch Maul's!

[Omicron]

I never claimed the Maul was CWA's, I don't even know who that is.

[Circa]

  On 12/31/2013 at 10:43 PM, Omicron said:

I never claimed the Maul was CWA's, I don't even know who that is.

Clone Wars Adventures. It's a game that the models were claimed to be ported from.

 

@, raging isn't helping this discussion.

 

Now, didn't you say that the Savage model was proven to be ported? And why doesn't @@khameir come explain his models to us? If he can prove that they aren't ported, then great.

[Ory'Hara]

its jkhub whos ragin, shame on all your messes, jkhub is illegal

[therfiles]

I don't think we scared @@khameir away, because he has never posted and he's been off since the tenth of December.

[eezstreet]

  On 12/31/2013 at 10:26 PM, therfiles said:

It seems like we are picking apart a lot of nuances while disregarding the ideas behind a lot of these posts. @@eezstreet, it seems like you are advocating for an absolutely no porting policy while suggesting that we should allow ports used moderately. It's very confusing.

 

Nope. I'm just saying it's super hypocritical that we treat models and maps differently from sounds, even though people have worked very hard to make them.

 

 

  Quote

Sorry, "replicate" was a poor word choice. As modders, we can't create original content of Ewan McGregor's voice. We cannot. These sounds, like voices from the movies, are impossible for us, as modders, to re-create.

I'm sure you could if you had enough $$$, which was my point.

 

 

  Quote

Certainly a valid point, but my argument was that it is beyond our bounds to acquire the original source material (actors, etc) to recreate it. Models and such can.

What about impressions and impersonators? There's a guy floating around on YouTube that can do a near-perfect Morgan Freeman impersonation, for example.

 

 

  Quote

We are trying to find a solution to the porting problem in the modding community. Simply saying ports are linkable to major crimes and such doesn't help us resolve this issue, as we are trying to find a policy that covers the issue and doesn't ban it 100%.

So stealing and IP theft are not major crimes? You can get quite a hefty fine for doing this sorta thing. A C&D is just a warning.

 

 

  Quote

I understand that the action was rash, but the mods were created 100% from ported materials which, under your and my ideas, should be removed.

They weren't.

The New Vegas model wasn't 100% ported, only the mesh was ported, the rest wasn't.

The Maul model wasn't ported at all, it was original.

Deviance's reskins of Maul (which wasn't ported) weren't 100% ported even if the mesh was.

 

khameir openly ported the Savage Oppress model but the Maul model was made by him, if I understand correctly.

[Lamented]

'Xactly!

[Kualan]

@@eezstreet

 

RE - your point about SW sounds/music that doesn't come directly from Lucasfilm, but from individual studios such as Bioware.

 

In the point I was making (that you quoted), they wouldn't come under any policy allowing Lucasfilm-sourced sounds. They would fall under the same logic as 3D models; property of the game studios. Though to use the KOTOR example in particular, there is the potential for a 'loophole' in that for a large number of the audio effects / music tracks from that series, they feature in both KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2. But those games were developed by different studios, whose link was Lucasfilm.

 

So in reality, anyone seeking to cause legal trouble over the use of KOTOR sound assets would find it very difficult to prove whether or not they came from Bioware's property or Obsidian's, and thus effectively negate an already unlikely 'lawsuit'. Does that make it any less 'illegal'? No, of course not. But it is near impossible to actually get punished for it. Which raises a new, more moral-based question:

 

Are we banning ports because we, as a community, believe they are inherently wrong? Or are we banning them because we believe the risk of legal consequences, however small, is a possibility? Neither is a wrong answer, but clarifying which one JKHub is siding with might help determine to what level of discretion the admins might utilise when it comes to maps/mods/models making use of ported content such as sound effects.

[eezstreet]

  On 1/1/2014 at 1:07 AM, Kualan said:

@@eezstreet

 

RE - your point about SW sounds/music that doesn't come directly from Lucasfilm, but from individual studios such as Bioware.

 

In the point I was making (that you quoted), they wouldn't come under any policy allowing Lucasfilm-sourced sounds. They would fall under the same logic as 3D models; property of the game studios. Though to use the KOTOR example in particular, there is the potential for a 'loophole' in that for a large number of the audio effects / music tracks from that series, they feature in both KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2. But those games were developed by different studios, whose link was Lucasfilm.

 

But you also missed the point where I said that Lucasfilm is no longer a thing. :>

[Kualan]

  On 1/1/2014 at 1:18 AM, eezstreet said:

But you also missed the point where I said that Lucasfilm is no longer a thing. :>

 

 

That just adds more weight to the need to clarify JKHub's stance on whether we ban ports because they're judged to be morally wrong, or do we only ban the ones where there is someone still out there who cares enough to protect the copyright of the asset in question?

 

Or to really summarise it in blunt terms:

 

"If you can get away with it, should you?"

[eezstreet]

  On 1/1/2014 at 1:24 AM, Kualan said:

That just adds more weight to the need to clarify JKHub's stance on whether we ban ports because they're judged to be morally wrong, or do we only ban the ones where there is someone still out there who cares enough to protect the copyright of the asset in question?

 

Or to really summarise it in blunt terms:

 

"If you can get away with it, should you?"

My solution seems like the best one, and the one that encompasses all of this, and is LucasFilm/whatever agnostic.

[Pande]

  On 12/31/2013 at 12:33 AM, minilogoguy18 said:

Now you got me wondering, I'm working on getting Kain in game as we speak and I had planned on just using the voice recording sessions since there's no background noise to filter out but now I think it may keep my model from being hosted.

 

It's a little less wrong in my opinion,  at least as far as morality is concerned. It may indeed be infringement but them putting it on youtube like that, it would almost seem more offensive to the original creators to ignore their higher quality, authentic work.

 

Just my 2¢, yeah it's still stealing.

[Grab]

Why do you guys care this much about legality?...

If this site is against illegal software, shouldn't you remove mods based on JK2/JKA Source Code, because it's illegal.

[Ory'Hara]

lol, their just whining and making disinformation over a  couple retextured models, lol.

 

since this is just turning into another failfront, i'll most likely be leaving jkhub.

[MoonDog]

  On 1/1/2014 at 10:20 PM, Grab said:

Why do you guys care this much about legality?...

If this site is against illegal software, shouldn't you remove mods based on JK2/JKA Source Code, because it's illegal.

 

 

lol. u srs bro?

 

 

 

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[eezstreet]

  On 1/1/2014 at 10:20 PM, Grab said:

Why do you guys care this much about legality?...

Because we don't want shit to get removed or this site to get C&D'd. It's pointless drama and having a clear-cut set of rules will help to alleviate that.

 

 

  Quote

If this site is against illegal software, shouldn't you remove mods based on JK2/JKA Source Code, because it's illegal.

Based on what? OpenJK removed the BINK code, the xbox SDK stuff, the FeelIt code, etc etc. If anything, Raven was sorta obligated to release the source code after it was uncovered that they were using an MP3 library which as part of their license forced them to release their source code...

And now I'm kinda curious if that same library isn't being used in Call of Duty games, because that might warrant them releasing their code too.

 

  On 1/1/2014 at 10:24 PM, Ory'Hara said:

lol, their just whining and making disinformation over a  couple retextured models, lol.

 

since this is just turning into another failfront, i'll most likely be leaving jkhub.

good riddance

[Lamented]

Tbh, I second Ory'Hara. This entire policy itself is beginning to tear apart modding resources, as well things people in this community would have preferred, and maybe JKHub itself some time, unless hypocrisy still works for ported resources that AREN'T models.

 

Look at Circa's Star Wars sound pack. Would you consider that a port, considering it all came from StarWars.com's soundboard?

 

Is it considered porting to use sounds from other games, or to use other textures for a new model? Why it is that such things are placed beyond restriction, I wonder. A considerable percentage of mods in the JKA community, then, should be deleted because of it's vast porting material, which at the same time would be a dumb idea because of the enjoyment others receive, but isn't that the policy? Or does hypocrisy still keep this kind of thing going?

 

Movie Battles II ported Darth Malak and nobody's filing lawsuits against them as far as I know.

 

And, lastly, one of my Christmas presents were completely safe of porting material. Khameir modeled it himself in Blender, someone did his own voice-overs, and lastly, all I did was retexture.

[Tempust85]

JKHub has rules. If you don't want to abide by them, leave.