The JKHUB Pass me around WIP topic

[MUG]

From @@MagSuls screenshots of the street, featuring his player-model, it already looks slightly over-scaled if anything. I dread to think what it is like now that you have seemingly made the buildings 5 times as large. The windows must be the size of cars.

[exonimus]

Again, sorry for not replying sooner, RL is truly being a pain at the moment.

 

From what I've first heard from Pande, and now moondog, the issues are more serious than I initially thought. Moondog, could you also send over your current version? I'd like to have the most up to date one, although delta already sent me his a while ago.

 

I suppose a call has to be made. But before I do so (at least, I suppose I'd be the one having to do so since I started it all..) I would like to hear your (that is, specifically @@Pande and @@MoonDog and @@Szico VII) opinion of the extent to which we'd be able to salvage/use at least parts of the map were we to absolutely start over with a pre-conceived layout and a clearer goal to work towards. Please be as direct and honest as you can, as this is in no way a criticism towards other mappers personally, and shouldn't be interpreted as such.

[mrwonko]

Since we're passing the map around anyway, how about just publicly uploading it for everybody to judge? That way the current mapper would get way more feedback.

[exonimus]

Agreed.

[MagSul]

In regards to the scale, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. That said, I feel that it would be significantly easier to demolish the street entirely, rather than go through the hassle of attempting to salvage bits and pieces.

[MUG]

Okay I'm just going to go ahead and go full tantrum, like the mature guy I am.
 
I am not arguing against what you are saying because I am offended, I am arguing because I completely disagree and think you are about to ruin what I suspect is my best mapping work to date. I'm afraid if you are going to re-scale my section of the map, I am going to have to insist you remove it from the project and I will release it separately in the scale I intended. I'm sorry, but I will not permit you to take my work and screw it up because you think you have a better idea of how big things of my own design are supposed to be.

 

I think it is a shame that people here are being so elitist that they believe their opinion to be so much more valuable that they can justify changing things other people have made, after they have made it clear they disagree with the proposed changes, based on their preferences rather than any actual need for change. If this was a case of the map actually not working because of my area being physically too small to work, then I would concede, but it is simply a case of you thinking it would be better the way you want it. And no, I am not suggesting that I have a better idea of what the perfect size for an area is than the rest of you, but I think I am capable of knowing how big I intended it to be, and you could have the decency to respect that I built it the way I built it because that was how I wanted it to be, rather than waving your egos around and forcing your opinions on the rest of us.
 
So please either leave my section in it's current scale, or remove it completely.

 

Thank you.

[eezstreet]

The door might be a bit too high, and the seats look a little tall as well. Otherwise, it looks just fine.

[MUG]

So I just wrote a lengthy post arguing further but I see no point in wasting time with that, as we can argue about this all year, and I don't think either of us are going to budge, so instead I'll just cut to the chase:

 

I have already made it extremely clear that I do not give you permission to use my work if you are going to re-scale it, yet you apparently think you can ignore even that request. So remove my content, or I will go to extreme lengths to create as much fuss as possible.

[mrwonko]

I do not give you permission to use my work if you are going to re-scale it

Maybe you should've thought about that before participating in a collaborative project.

[MUG]

I will say just one last thing. In a setting such as this, once you pass your work on it's not yours anymore more. It belongs to the group.

Maybe you should've thought about that before participating in a collaborative project.

No-one made any agreements giving up rights to their work, so whilst it maybe be a dick move, I have every right to make it, and frankly, if there had been an agreement that anyone can veto any design decision I make, then I would never have got involved.

 

Either way this has turned into a hostile mess now (which may well be to a great extent my fault), and I see that it would be best if I just depart from this project and take my portion of it with me.

[exonimus]

Gentlemen. This has lasted long enough. I take part of the blame due to not establishing enough ground rules (forgive me, this is my first experience starting such a thing ever). And yes, this is supposed to be a truly fun project, and not the raging discussion I've seen in the last few days. I feel @@MoonDog and @@Pande have a point where it comes to brushwork (detail vs structural) layout, etc. On the other hand, I completely understand @@MUG being extremely proud of what he made, as it looks remarkably cool. 

 

When @@MoonDog said the map was a collaborative project, he was right. As the OP stated, "4.Construction: We try to not remove others' work, just improve upon it, although this sometimes does require removal, depending on the situation."

 

To be sure, others DO have every right to improve upon each other's work. If they find that the scale is too small for normal play, then they have every right to change it. In addition, one can't just recall their own parts, especially not when you're the first mapper and others use your part to start off from. However, again, I love this area, and completely sympathize. You're more than free to use your own part on a smaller scale in an upcoming map, and you can be sure I'm going to play it. Right now, as apparently both moondog and mug called it quits, we have a situation on our hands. It might just be a good idea to follow Pande's suggestion and start over, although we can surely use parts from the current construction, but only after we've established more ground rules and specific area layouts before starting construction, although I would require active help concerning the specificity of such a thing. Again, I may be blamed for not realizing this before, but this arguing has lasted long enough. I will put the scheduled passing around on hold for now, until we have (amongst ourselves) reached a definitive decision on this. Opinions here (please review the map in its current state first at http://www.mediafire.com/?2nu3vyyw38xu23w)

[StormJedi]

Hello all, I'm StormJedi. A newbie mapper and someone who lurks forums.

Just curious, is this project still on? I got sad when screenshots stopped.

[Pande]

I doubt it very much stormjedi

[NAB622]

IF the project is still on, I'll keep an eye on it, and offer script assistance and minor tweaks here and there. Can't say I'd take a full segment or anything due to time, for the moment.

 

Really, though.....let's not get discouraged as a group from a disagreement, hm? This stuff happens in group projects.

[CaptainChar]

in a large collaboration, theres bound to be some issues, but come now, we are the JKHUB, we surived worse and we shall do so again

[Omicron]

There is no reason why you still can't continue with the map, even if a large part of it is gone. What is done is done. End of. True it won't be as big as what people may have hoped the final result would have been, but there is no reason at all on why you can't stop the project. I have liked from what I have seen from the screenshots, but so much work has been done on the map, you might as well finish it off, so that the rest of us can at least have another great map to play on.

[Jango40]

The possibly worst thing about this arguing is the fact that MUG hasn't given any signs of life since 3rd April.. 

[eezstreet]

Probably scared him off.

[MagSul]

Personally, I reckon that it'd just be easier for those interested in the collaboration to simply start a new one. Give it some time to put together ideas and come up with a solid plan, then crack on with it. As others have said, it was the lack of prep and discussion that caused the conflict to begin with. I'm perfectly content getting on with my own little projects at the moment, so that rules me out. I'd be curious to see what the others put together, though.

[MagSul]

... I spent some time writing a thoughtful reply and then accidentally lost it. Typical. The less drawn out version is that I am not adverse to anyone doing what they wish to the portion of the map I submitted. I believe that the conflicts turned up simply because we were looking at the map from a different perspective to one another. I do actually agree with the points you've made, and can see why the low buildings in my case was a problem. So, I'm sorry about that. As for the streets ending abruptly either end, my thoughts at the time were that any of the mappers could conclude or continue a side as they saw fit. Linking to what was said before that, I get why the low architecture is an issue in that department. Again, sorry. I think the chief problem was that there wasn't a lot of discussion regarding what had been produced. I believe I could have shown more of what I was doing, and worked with the feedback that would have resulted. MUG showed off his work a lot more, however. Scale didn't become an issue until it was brought up by Pande when he received the map. I had already continued on by that point. His initial reaction wasn't exactly positive, which didn't really help matters. Overall, the feedback that both MUG and I received didn't exactly deter us away from what we were doing whilst we were working on it. In fact, it was actually encouraging.

 

So the summary is, I'm sorry for my portion of the mistakes in regards to this project. I hope that you are able to see things from my perspective and why I think the problems occurred in the first place. My portion of the map is with you guys already, and I have absolutely no problem with any of you doing whatever you like with it. My closing suggestion would simply be that all of those involved in the project should gather at the conclusion of each person's contribution, just to get a feel for it and for that final bit of criticism.

[CaptainChar]

if a new collaboration is to be set, I suggest we first discuss the rules for the next project, just so everyone is on the same wavelength, or more a more through set of rules maybe, and perhaps we could avoid another...collision for lack of better words, my only collaboration maps was the Goldeneye Bunker, and the canceled Vampire blood chronicles mod. but communication is a must on any project that isn't solo. sorry its just my two cents, I just feel its a shame that this project has gone so far south, each contributor was showing great promise.

 

Rule of thumb Mag, Always highlight your entire msg and copy to the clipboard before posting, just incase it doesn't send the first time, you don't have to reword it

[NAB622]

Weren't enough guidelines and discussions before launching into construction. Certain people(person) weren't willing to cooperate and would rather have had 40 percent of the map deleted than make a compromise that would improve the final quality of the level.

 

Attitudes like that will doom a project every single time.

 

Yes, but......if I may......your replies to him weren't helping matters. At all. I don't care if you were right or not (I didn't open the map to check), but you were certainly not willing to compromise in any way and end the argument.

 

If you're anything like me, you weren't trying to seem rude, and it just came across that way....but really, especially in an argument, you need to watch what you're saying. A few things you said came across as quite cold. I don't blame Mug for dropping out.

[Artemis]

I realize that I have no say in this whole thing, but...  I really, really want to see it finished.

 

From my own observations, I completely understand why Mug would've gone for something cramped and close-quarters.  Yes, it *might* be impractical for such a 3rd person game, but it does more for the atmosphere of the level.  From what I think you all are going for, the smaller space fits it.

 

The different scales would be a problem, as it's already been noted.  Unifying everything and fitting it to one scale would fix it all (easier said than done, I suppose), but in real architecture there are structures that are more spacious or more cramped.  It mostly depends on the functionality.  Even trashcans are different sizes.  Smaller ones where there are less people and bigger ones where there are more. (Ok, sorry for the bad example.  That's all I could think of.)  But a subway, at least where I live, is run by the gov't.  And indeed, they do try and spend the least money possible for something to work.  From what I've read and picked up on, this post society most likely would have a corrupt form of leadership.  Which makes me think they wouldn't care how cramped or unpleasant the invention was, just as long as it could do its job.  Heck, they might even have something more fancy and expensive for their own use.  (Maybe this is a better example:  A courthouse is larger, because it is a more imposing, regal building.  A shop is going to be smaller, because it is maybe not as significant, or not used by people who are accustomed to such formal activity.  In the case that there *is* an alternative form of transportation for the higher-ups, it'd make sense for the subway to be smaller.)

 

So, I feel like I'm rambling pointlessly, and I've forgotten a few other things I wanted to say...

 

Aaanyways, would it make any more sense to scale the structures to the class they are designed for?  I really can't offer any way to fix what's happened already.  Since I haven't seen the map, I'm not able to judge just how odd the scale differences look.

 

You have my most sincere apologies if I've thrown salt into a wound.  I'm just trying to see if the coals can be poked back to a fire.  This is a really cool project, with some really talented people working on it, and I'd hate to see it all go down the drain.

 

(And IF I was any good with the z axis, I'd offer my help.  But 3d has defeated me, so the most I could ever contribute would be ideas or possibly drawings...  >.< )