The Ethics of Paying for Models

[eezstreet]

^Pretty sure this topic has been covered years ago, Almighty_gir I beleive got paid to make a model and there was nothing illegal about it at all.

 

If you want to catch someones interest you should at least post what you want made, you might find yourself discouraged if someone contacts you but is totally uninterested in making what you want even if money is involved.

  

That's right. Nothing's wrong or illegal with paying for a model, people do it all the time for short films, games, & some just upload them to places like turbosquid to sell. Alot of people make a living out of being a freelance artist, others (like me) just do it occasionally for some extra money.

 

Though it'd be stupid of someone to pay a freelance artist the complete payment upfront, or accept to pay them an outrageous amount for something to go into an old game such as JKA.

JKA and short films are two different beasts entirely. If you want to make models for cash, I have no problem with that. I support the art trade and I believe in the movement that art is making these days. However... I don't agree with selling anything for cash whenever a mod project is involved. I'm disappointed that people see the need to make money off of what I consider to be a hobby, when the most they're putting into it is software costs. Freelancing models is fine, but fact of the matter is that artists are overcharging for bloody models.

I get really red in the face over stuff like this.

 

Other mod communities feel the same way as I feel I'm sure.

 

EDIT: oh, and you know, the LucasArts mod policy...

http://jediknight3.filefront.com/info/LAModPolicy

[Inyri]

I'm just going to point out that the solution to the "mod policy" is to provide the mesh, take the money, and let the recipient get it in-game themselves. Moot workaround, since nobody'd have the patience to learn to rig a model if they don't have the patience to learn to make it.

 

Also, I take it you think artists should give away paintings and sculptures for the cost of the paint or clay, based upon your reasoning?

[Tempust85]

JKA and short films are two different beasts entirely. If you want to make models for cash, I have no problem with that. I support the art trade and I believe in the movement that art is making these days. However... I don't agree with selling anything for cash whenever a mod project is involved. I'm disappointed that people see the need to make money off of what I consider to be a hobby, when the most they're putting into it is software costs. Freelancing models is fine, but fact of the matter is that artists are overcharging for bloody models.

I get really red in the face over stuff like this.

 

Other mod communities feel the same way as I feel I'm sure.

 

EDIT: oh, and you know, the LucasArts mod policy...

http://jediknight3.filefront.com/info/LAModPolicy

 

Not everyone can afford the time to be involved in a mod project for free, pay a freelance artist for a model as a last resort but certainly do not make it your first choice. I am talking about only creating the model, not implementing it into a game.

 

Some artists may overcharge, it does not mean we all do. Most of us are actually quite fair in what we ask for our services.

[eezstreet]

I'm just going to point out that the solution to the "mod policy" is to provide the mesh, take the money, and let the recipient get it in-game themselves. Moot workaround, since nobody'd have the patience to learn to rig a model if they don't have the patience to learn to make it.

 

Also, I take it you think artists should give away paintings and sculptures for the cost of the paint or clay, based upon your reasoning?

Artists make a living out of painting, sculpting or whatever. If you're getting paid to make something for a mod project, you're doing it wrong. Most mod communities frown upon those that make anything for cash. Not only does it unlevel the playing field, but it makes things morally questionable for no good reason. I'd hate to mod for cash. Money is a filthy invention.

 

I know of very few modelled that charge what I consider "decent amounts". Triple digits for a low poly model is way too much in my opinion, especially if you're dealing with mods and not indies. I've never seen a model that I've liked go for under $100.

 

I can't honestly understand the mindset of artists. It seems like you're all pretty much in agreement that people should be able to mod for cash. I for one find that completely unacceptable. If I were a modeler, I'd refuse to model for money because let's face it: if you're still hanging around this mod community and make models for your own enjoyment, why do you need money? You're modelling for experience, fun, to express your ideas. I can't speak on behalf of programmers here (@@spior, @@Astral Serpent, @@Didz, @, @@Xycaleth, @@ensiform, @@redsaurus, @@Scooper correct me if I'm wrong) but I don't see how something so rooted in the concept of creativity can be so money driven. What we should be focusing on, instead of paying people for models, is teaching them how to model. That way, we can have a more thriving community full of modelers and such, than having people become frustrated by the appearance of people being gifted or whatever. Think about it this way, >DT<, instead of getting money from a person, you could get one of the things which might be useful to you:

- More help for MB3

- Someone who can help you work on your own projects

- Feeling better about yourself

 

Society these days tends to lean towards being narcissistic. Why should things be like that? We ought to impose a system of paying things forward...learning a subject in this community ought to entitle people to teach that same subject to two people. Knowledge is power, wealth and worldly goods are illusions of power. That's why I think that JKG is beginning to thrive more and more. A lot of the team has spent lengthy amounts of time learning the engine, and reverse engineering portions of it. The main contributing devs for the most part know the engine up and down. But I think that honestly every single person on this forum has the capabilities to do things which we have done, MB2 has done, JA++ has done, and so on. I've been in that boat before. I had to realias two or three times before settling on this name. I found the coding community to be extremely open, extremely enjoyable, and generally a lot nicer than the majority of other fields that I've worked with (I started with maps, and ended in code). But paying for models? And this request system of models that seems to be common? It's crap to be honest...people sign up on the site just to make a request. For what? Someone to say no? And then the process repeats? No.

 

I'm ranting. I'm sorry. I'm just tired of the divide between modelers and coders and I'm sick of greed. It bears repeating: money is a filthy invention.

Edited January 27, 2013 by eezstreet

[Raz0r]

I tend to agree, I've refused 'donations'/incentive/payment for my coding work several times and find it ethically wrong to ask for, accept, or offer cash for an open and creative hobby like modding 10 year old games.

I've gone the other way, releasing the source for the majority of my work and offering help to anyone who wants to learn. See: JACoders + modbase

 

I haven't even mentioned the EULA or related issues, I'm speaking about respect, creativity and learning. Money does not contribute to any of these things.

 

I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying you're a dick and I think less of you as a person for doing it. So, carry on if you will.

[Tempust85]

@ eezstreet

 

Some people may ask for money to work on mods, but that is their own thing and not mine. It would be great to teach people how to do things (which I do from time to time), but not everyone is able or wants to learn it and would rather ask others to do it for them.

 

 

@ Razish

 

I sincerely hope that was not aimed at me for something that I do not do. Childish name calling belongs where it starts, in the schoolyard so keep it there please.

[Milamber]

I think he was referring to the general usage of "you" as in the people whom asks for money for working on a mod team.

[minilogoguy18]

Well since it wouldn't hurt too many peoples feelings I think he should ask more places than here since he would have to put the model in game himself, he isn't going to find anyone to make it here.

 

OP, search around, ask somewhere like polycount.com, you're like 10000x more likely to get any response there, lots of freelance game artists trying to make a living over there.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I suppose KOTF has certainly set people's minds on things like this...

 

My first bought mod was from the creator who was in desperate need of money and offered me his source code. Between ourselves it was a 'okay I have some money and a reason to give it to you' and he was the kind who didn't take money for free. Since then I've paid him for his time on some other projects. If I don't give him an incentive, he'll snail along and it'll never be done.

 

Yes I could have done it myself had I forced myself to learn all the weird symbols that make up programming. But I don't have the time and patience. On the other hand, he's got no job and he can do what I could use.

 

To me, this paying for things is a 'willing seller, willing buyer' thing, but perhaps such deals should be kept private otherwise we will have discussions like this eternally...

 

Shoot me?

[eezstreet]

@ eezstreet

 

Some people may ask for money to work on mods, but that is their own thing and not mine. It would be great to teach people how to do things (which I do from time to time), but not everyone is able or wants to learn it and would rather ask others to do it for them.

Getting paid for models generally allows the behavior of the buyer to proliferate. People need to realize that this is wrong and it doesn't belong in a modding community. So yeah, I agree with what @ said. Paying for or accepting payment in this sort of environment is ethically wrong in all kinds of ways.

[Milamber]

I don't really see the issue, it's kind of like paying someone to help you paint your house for example <.< It's a service, it's not like he's asking for full time pay on a mod team where no one else on the team gets paid.

 

It's about the occasional job of making a model for someone else, and being paid to make it a priority.

 

 

I mean illustrators and the like do commissions, pretty much the same thing.

[Inyri]

Split from this thread. Feel free to continue.

[eezstreet]

I don't really see the issue, it's kind of like paying someone to help you paint your house for example <.< It's a service, it's not like he's asking for full time pay on a mod team where no one else on the team gets paid.

 

It's about the occasional job of making a model for someone else, and being paid to make it a priority.

 

 

I mean illustrators and the like do commissions, pretty much the same thing.

 

Would you pay for art for use in mods, supposing that it had more money for you than your day job? It's less hours and more pay! More flexible hours, and more flexibility. Not to mention, you don't have to mention it on your taxes. Makes life easier, does it not?

Besides, if you made mods for cash, why do boring stuff? Doesn't all have to be mods either. Can do some indy game freelance stuff too.

Wouldn't you want to mod for cash?

[Inyri]

Don't know about you, but I'd be really hard pressed to charge enough and put out enough work to make more money selling mods or mod material than I make at my day job. That's why the term "starving artist" exists.

[eezstreet]

Don't know about you, but I'd be really hard pressed to charge enough and put out enough work to make more money selling mods or mod material than I make at my day job. 

Supposing you did. Would you do it?

[Inyri]

Probably, but it would be almost impossible on commission unless I was charging over $600 a model, or if I learn to make them faster. It's just not a practical argument. People can make a living doing this in the industry because they're paid hourly or salary, not commission.

[eezstreet]

You seem to be avoiding my question: if you got paid at a rate, salary, hourly, whatever, for making models primarily for use in mods, in such a case that you were getting paid more than your day job, would you do it?

[Inyri]

Look at the first word of the previous post, and I think you'll find that I did indeed answer that very question. I also pointed out that the likelihood of that ever actually happening is really really low.

[Jango40]

What is wrong with charging money if it's your hobby?

[eezstreet]

Look at the first word of the previous post, and I think you'll find that I did indeed answer that very question. I also pointed out that the likelihood of that ever actually happening is really really low.

What does "probably" mean though? Means you're considering making models for mods for cash? Or that you would be intrigued by doing it?

 

What is wrong with charging money if it's your hobby?

Would you make models for cash if you had the skill to do it, the time to do it, and you made more money than your day job?

[Inyri]

What does "probably" mean though? Means you're considering making models for mods for cash? Or that you would be intrigued by doing it?

Probably means I don't commit to things that haven't happened, because in most cases you don't know exactly what you'd do in a situation until it occurs. It will never occur, so it's irrelevant in any case.

[minilogoguy18]

I don't see why you're getting so upset eezstreet, don't think you'll ever really win this argument, there are tons of people that work freelance and get paid to do it but like Inyri said freelance artists don't make nearly the money you seem to think.

 

I still say the OP should go to the paid job postings section of polycount and post his model idea there, people post small want ads there, sometimes even for a game mod project, he may get an answer.

[eezstreet]

Probably means I don't commit to things that haven't happened, because in most cases you don't know exactly what you'd do in a situation until it occurs. It will never occur, so it's irrelevant in any case.

Why won't it never occur? You don't know that it won't ever occur. I could offer a job where I pay you $600 for each model (just using that as a baseline) tomorrow, and you mean to tell me that you wouldn't feel any bit wrong about modelling for JKA for cash? And for the record, I'm referring to a full PK3 and everything, all packed up nice, rigged, tagged for the game, all the amenities there.

 

I don't see why you're getting so upset eezstreet, don't think you'll ever really win this argument, there are tons of people that work freelance and get paid to do it but like Inyri said freelance artists don't make nearly the money you seem to think.

Don't see why you're making this personal, but okay. Difference is that freelance artists make models for a living, they don't make mods. I find making mods for pay is fundamentally wrong. Nothing wrong with models. And the reason I think why modellers don't make the cash is because sometimes the cost of these models is outrageous if you ask me. Quadruple digits for a model that took a week isn't really worth it if you ask me.

[minilogoguy18]

That's why I said he could get his model made then the part of getting it in the game will be solely on him, he wont be paying for a mod, he'll be paying for a model.

[Inyri]

I don't see why you're getting so upset eezstreet

Probably because there isn't much market for paid commissions for coding work.