Eitani's Top 5 Personal Complaints of JA

[eiTani]

I've been playing JA for about 12 years and it amazes me how this game is unique in it's own way. Unique, however, doesn't always mean better. There are many things that hold JA back as a game, but these are my personal top 5 reasons. Please take them with a grain of salt and no flaming please.

 

 

 

1. FFA and JA - Nearly every Japlus server that I've gone to for the past decade either has half of it's players dueling or just chatting and not playing. This game has really botched the meaning of an FFA. If I really wanted to watch people sitting and talking, I could just watch the Star Wars prequels. If it's an FFA, I expect everything to be chaotic and unorganized with very few rules. Another thing is that I have had a lot of people repeatedly requesting me to duel them, especially after I cheesed them in an FFA. Realize that I will not duel you because: a) This is FFA not Duel or Power Duel   and   b) I am not wasting game time focusing on dueling the same guy over and over (even if I cheesed you multiple times).

 

 

2. "Laming" - For those of you who don't know what "laming" means: "Laming is attacking a player with their lightsabers off or with a chatbox up". In other words, you will be punished for playing the game. No where, in ANY game, is there a rule quite as stupid as this one. This would be a better game overall if a rule like this didn't exist. Not to mention it is the the only reason why admins exist in JA.

 

 

3. Combat -The combat in this game is basically Quake with a Star Wars skin slapped on it. Not much thought was put into the actual combat, especially since it revolves around exploiting the system. How incredibly stupid is it that I have to "wiggle" or aim my mouse in a very unorthodox fashion just to be considered pro? I could straight up cheese my way through an FFA just by spamming wiggle and get Top 3 in the scoreboard. How anyone else using this craptastic move does not have carpel tunnel by now is beyond me. Not only does this make combat very bland and not true to Star Wars, but it's even worse that people actually support these moves being in the game. Shame on the devs for not fixing this when they had the chance.  This guy gets it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH_0xyUdD18.

 

I have noticed the influx of new players (probably from the Humble Bumble sale or because of the new Star Wars movie). I am tired of seeing tons of players just run around and not know what the hell they're doing, get completely destroyed by veterans of the game and complain about how unfair the game is. There is no way you can actually prepare yourself for the brutal catastrophe that is JA's multiplayer. Hopefully, the current set of coders scrap the base combat and create a better system that's fair & easy to learn but requires REAL skill to master and holds true to Star Wars.

 

 

4. Mods - It's nice to be able to customize your game how you want it, but realize some mods will never see the light of day on an actual server. Take custom maps for example. You browse the Files section for all sorts of fancy maps and you find a couple that catch your eye. That's great and all, but realize these maps are only useful when the server has them. Otherwise, there's really not much point to them. Why use these maps when you have no one to share them with? At least using custom models gives you a reason to use them. You can actually SEE them and so can someone else if they have the same model as yours and can potentially alter how your game looks even when on another server.

 

 

5. Player Variety - I understand this is a pretty old game, but I get pretty tired of seeing the same people on the only server left in the game (*cough* KR *cough*). This goes for MB2 as well (I see you over there AOD). I like you guys, but I don't want to see you everyday. With less variety, there is less motivation to change tactics or to get better

 

 

Rant over.

[ent]

You have been playing wrong Jedi Academy.

[eiTani]

You have been playing wrong Jedi Academy.

There's only one last time I checked

[Ping]

There's only one last time I checked

He means CTF. It has none of those problems. Having said that, I agree with all of your complaints, except for maybe #5. As for #1 and #2, one of the reasons jka is so popular is exactly because it can be used as a virtual chatroom so very well. I don't see this as a flaw if there is enough variety to cater to everyone's tastes, i.e. if not ALL servers are just chatrooms etc.

[eiTani]

He means CTF. It has none of those problems. Having said that, I agree with all of your complaints, except for maybe #5. As for #1 and #2, one of the reasons jka is so popular is exactly because it can be used as a virtual chatroom so very well. I don't see this as a flaw if there is enough variety to cater to everyone's tastes, i.e. if not ALL servers are just chatrooms etc.

I didn't think people still did CTF. Either way, I'm not a huge fan of the game mode and am more of a deathmatch type of guy.

[lil_binger]

Everything but 5 and 2 sometimes, sounds like u should be playing JO

 

1 - FFA -  It's not always ffa.  Don't think of FFA like it's an all out free for all.  There are only a few gametypes to choose from.  There is no other better gametype for people to hangout and have fun and not have to kill other players every second.  JK2 developed ff fights, where full force fights between 2 players occur.  There were unwritten rules that many people followed and of course ignored.  Playing so many other games, there are very few that accommodate just joining a server chatting and having fun.

 

People do like to ffa in JK2 just not all the time.  JK3 may be a bit too tame for having brutal battles with everyone having an all out ffa.  Jk2 people do enjoy a good ffa.

 

2 - Laming -  It is basically a part of JK2.  Some servers are less or more tolerant.  It does kinda depend on the admin.  It's best not to interfere in a ff fight in progress though out of respect for those involved.

 

3 - Combat - I never liked JK3 combat very much.  I prefer JK2 1.02 combat and there are a couple bugs but that is what makes things interesting.  A player needs to know a few things to be competitive but with JK3, combat is just a little silly sometimes.  You don't need to know a plethora of moves in JK2.

 

4 - mods - Most 1.02 servers use JK2mv.  It's server side.mod.  People have made some server side maps also which replace base maps but add new areas.  Custom maps aren't used a whole lot besides the server side ones which are used every day (which people without the map can join, they just won't see the added areas, I wonder if anyone in JK3 has done that).    Most people will be found on good 'ol ffa_bespin.  There is one big point u may have missed about custom maps and mods, I believe they have contributed to the longevity of the entire community for both JK2 and 3.  Some people can play on the same map every day but I can't.  I like to have some variety.  Having this variety does help the games live on.

 

 

5 - I think there are less people who play JK2.  Thanks to JK2 Thugs facebook page, a lot of older players have been returning to the game.  Full 32 person all out FFA battles still do occur.  I think Thugs have been shooting for the 1st Monday of the month for a shin dig but many still play through out the month.  CTF is still a big part of JK2 also.

 

 

Many people like JK2 better, others like JK3 better.  Maybe you should come hang out with us some time.  Other than the game, you need to install JK2 1.04 (Patch) then install JK2MV at JK2mv.org and you'll be able to see every server for the 3 versions of JK2 in use.  Any other JK3'er reading, if you don't know what you are missing, come by some time and visit.

[Warlock]

I definitely understand and agree with a lot of your sentiments, having begun in JK2 with the {O}rder of the Jedi clan myself (you'll remember one of our masters, Jedi Master Griffenclaw who developed the JediCouncilGC maps).

 

1 and 2 - Basically the laming rule came about back in JK2 as it was said, because FFA became more than just a place to do FFA. It was the only game mode where you could have multiple saber duels and FF fights and weapons fighting all going on at the same time with ease, so larger clans of duelists who didn't want to have to sit around and wait and wait and wait to duel, or didn't want to CTF just to FF and so forth opted for this game mode because it was the most versatile. There was also a heavy amount of "Jedi" clan movements that focused a lot on one-on-one Padawan/Master training and so it was important to not have classes or Trials or such disrupted and so rules were put into place to keep people from just jumping right onto a server and attacking everything that moved in order to have an ordered atmosphere during non FFA times. The easiest solution was to basically ask people not to lame (i.e. attacking someone who was lame - no weapon) and other honor rules came into being such as bowing before duels, not striking someone who was knocked down (in JK2 you really couldn't defend at all once flipkick grounded), etc. But the level to which it has become applied and the complete intolerance of many admins over the years when it comes to the interpretation and enforcement of these honor rules has reached absurdity, to the point of becoming parody. I generally laugh any time I enter a server and start seeing admins spamming messages and sleeps on about 1/3 of the people on server.

 

3 - The problem here is that all the old timers like me stopped running servers. We solves the exploit issues long ago with JA+ mod. It's really quite simple, but the ESL community built their entire competitive "pro" style around the base game and all its collision issues. If you run JA+ mod with MP damages (which increases the saber radius to close the missing hitbox area allowing for passive blocks and minimizing ghost sings through the opponent's saber) in conjunction with sv_fps 30 or higher and remove location based damage, you can tweak the altDMG settings to effectively eliminate all the wiggle exploits and effectively have the core sabering the game was originally intended to have without compromising the ability to deal solid damage with multiple hits on extremely well placed strikes that hit multiple zones with proper force and prolonged poking. There were no one-hit headshots going on, but at the same time you could generally off someone in 2-3 hits if you were talented. This is how servers like {O} and {TO} and many others ran for years and they had some of the largest communities in JA during the 2004-2005 era (upwards of 100 members and usually 40-50 were active players at any given time). No one ever complained that the game wasn't enough like base. No one ever complained that these clans viewed the exploits as a form of cheating and everyone in those communities cheered with glee when we figured out how to effectively eliminate wiggle. But today, every JA+ server will have a "basetroll" on a daily basis extolling the praises of how superior base is and exploiting the hell out of everyone on the server, and even the best JA+ players use exploits now. It's become acceptable and people laugh when you call them exploits.  Apparently they don't realize that Ravensoft never patched the bugs and exploits, not because it was "perfect" on release but rather because they were angry over a beta leak and never really completed the game because of it...you can see that it's an unfinished game just by the fact there are custom skins that were never finished that just got hidden away among other things like the fact the server.cfg for base was basically just the JK2 config without any of the added ghoul cvars or anything...MP was obviously still in beta so we got a crap MP experience because of it never being finished. Also, in regard to your comment about new players, with so few clans who actively welcome new players, train them, etc. you are bound to have new player beatdown fests. Oddly enough, that whole "laming" rule thing and such you decry was how most new players back in the old days were able to find a welcome place to sit back and learn the game from some experienced players who weren't just running around FFAing the whole time. Maybe you learned another way, through trial and error, but the vast majority of vets who left the game years ago (fed up with all the exploiters, hackers, trolls, and the admins who fought them to the point of becoming abusers to their own members) all had masters or at least communities that actively trained new players rather than just letting them to the wolves.

 

4 - No one runs custom maps anymore because the JA community is so small that they are all fighting over every single new player that comes their way from a Steam bundle sale or the like. Not to mention, as beautiful as many of the custom maps are, they're entirely impractical or have huge memory leaks and are only good for standing around RPing or exploring. People threw away game functionality or the ability to quickly get from point a to point b on a map to stay in the fight a long time ago it seems when developing maps for this game...likely because the RP clans are the only ones who ever use custom maps anymore because they can always find new players somehow through word of mouth.

 

 

So yeah, basically, I sympathize with a lot of what you say. The JK community isn't what it once was, but it hasn't been for 10 years. There's a few clans like KR that are still around because they try to run a clean server but at the same time, they have their abusive admins as well. There's no real places left like there were, and the majority of the problems with the game have been left to the wayside. Thankfully the OpenJK team picked up and did a LOT to fix the major issues, but nothing has (or likely ever will) be done to fix the saber exploits that make all the active servers unbearable. It's just the sad reality, and it can't much be helped.

[lil_binger]

As maps go.  I've released Mechtemple for JK2 and soon for JA.  It's big.  basically there are only a few areas, it's just they are big areas.

 

I'm moving into a more fighting friendly configuration with a few maps I am working on to be sweet and to the point

 

I'm working on a new thermal golf map after mech temple thermal golf.  It's interesting.....

 

And I am working on a new game type map, (or at least trying to make a tffa match be a little more interesting).   Team only bases with a mixed fighting area in the middle with targets on the wall to turn stuff on and off in the fighting area that can hurt players.  Team only buttons in each base to control stuff in the middle.  Middle targets to damage someone at the controls inside the base trying to hit a trigger (for a little retaliation).  It's got a lot going on for a map of it's size.   I might even add ctf to it.  There might be a little strategy involved even though the flags will be so close.  I think it may get a few people who don't use custom maps to give it a shot if it works out well.  No one has much of an idea what is to happen with it.  It's came from thoughts of wanting to make a rocketball map to shoot rockets at each other then I got a few more ideas.  It's mostly complete working on it for about 5-6 hours now.  I'm just adding in the cool stuff atm.

 

I'm still convinced custom maps are the best maps and I enjoy making them.  I enjoy testing them.  If others like then cool, if they sit around and never get played it won't bother me, I still enjoyed the whole process.  So much work I have done has never left beta stages.  I find it fun just creating stuff and thinking up new ways of doing things.  There's a good group of guys in JK2 that get a good kick out of the stuff I've come up with lately.  He had a great time playing thermal golf in the temple of mechanism and exploring around on the weekend.  ( holes complete for a new thermal golf map in a star destroyer ready for beta soon

[Futuza]

All of your complaints are directly due to the fact that you're playing a game that is more than a decade old.  I don't really know why you're complaining in a public forum - do you expect something to be done?  The developers are long gone and the only people who could possibly fix anything (modders) are apparently one of the problems (see complaint #4).  Thanks for letting us know your opinion though.

[Jolly]

"This goes for AOD as well (I see you guys over there)" <---- The most unfortunate thing in Movie Battles 2. 

[Ping]

All of your complaints are directly due to the fact that you're playing a game that is more than a decade old.

Laming, roleplay-ffa and wiggle have existed for almost as long as JKA has.

 

 

 

 

We solves the exploit issues long ago with JA+ mod. It's really quite simple, but the ESL community built their entire competitive "pro" style around the base game and all its collision issues.

And with very good reason, because the ESL wants to give players a platform to figure out who the best player in jka is, not who the best player on a variation of jka is. Regardless of how good the proposed changes are, mods will never be the solution because they are just that: changes to the game applied externally. Since we cannot all agree on what changes are appropriate, we cannot all agree on how jka should be, so therefore we have to take and deal with jka as it is.

[Link]

That's the good thing about servers. When you buy them, they're a clean slate for you to create whatever you want.

 

A lot of people enjoy the social aspect of the game which has developed over time where you can chat, duel, FFA, set up events etc. A lot of people prefer to FFA/CTF/TFFA and compete in tournaments to get better and as others said, determine who is the best.

 

To say one is better than the other is just opinion as everyone plays the same game differently.

 

They're just two sides of the coin and if one is in decline then someone from that community is going to have to cough up some time and money and invest in it if it's important to them.

[Circa]

People pay for their own servers, so they can do what they want with them.

 

I understand your complaints, but like Futuza said, this game is old. The reason your first complaint stands out is because the majority of the people that still play this game are the biggest clans. Clans are a tight-knit community and focus on just that: community. So being social is a huge part of that.

 

Ranting is good and all, but if you want to see change, you could help with getting your own server and creating the atmosphere that you think is what JKA should be.

[Futuza]

 

Laming, roleplay-ffa and wiggle have existed for almost as long as JKA has.

 

If the game had been made today, we'd get regular patches with game balances/fixes - probably have a competitive match lobby, a much different server architecture, and probably some sort of reporting system, we'd also probably have tutorials that teach advanced game mechanics like poking/wiggling if they were intended to be part of the game play.  That would deal with all of his complaints.  Personally I think those things aren't problems though and his complaints regarding those specific things aren't noteworthy.  In fact part of that is what gives JKA it's charm.

[eezstreet]

Such a tight knit community is sometimes a selling point for people. Some people would prefer playing in smaller groups than with large hordes of players. That's part of the reason why players have decided to stick with 1.00 instead of 1.01.

 

[red]Moderator note: some posts have been hidden as they do not contribute to the conversation[/red]

Edited January 3, 2016 by eezstreet

[Noodle]

When I got sick of the stupid honour rules and laming whining back in 2006, I did what any reasonable person would do. I started my own lugormod server with no rules and told a couple of friends to join, when the server started having some activity, people naturally started to join in time. I was even able to play in some of those big ass maps with ships, which you never get to see since everybody loves raving with their glowsticks. 

 

Now that I came back to the game I downloaded MBII and I'm  happy since in recent days AOD seems to not be the only server with people. I was tired of always playing on mb2_dotf. 

[ShakeThatSalt]

#3 was pretty cringy, not going to lie

[afi]

The combat is the only reason why this game is good, the other points don't concern me.

Poke exists since 2004 so complaining about that in 2015 is pretty obsolete.

[Jango40]

everything you pointed out is what causes the game to still be alive to this day

[eiTani]

I don't really know why you're complaining in a public forum - do you expect something to be done?

Wut....

 

Isn't that how the majority of games with communities operate? 

 

 

 

The combat is the only reason why this game is good, the other points don't concern me.

Poke exists since 2004 so complaining about that in 2015 is pretty obsolete.

 

Regardless of what year it was made, it is still an unfixed bug, and a silly one at that.

 

If you care that much about killing players with one hit, there are cvars for that purpose.

 

I know you're ESL, but you gotta admit that poking is awful.

[Omicron]

It takes a degree of skill to be able to kill someone with one hit (ie, using poke, aim, wiggle, etc), not sure why you see it as being awful.

[afi]

It takes a lot of skill... mrl managed to do over 300 dmg with one hit while most people were lucky to get over 100. In the end strafe- and rocket-jumps (especially in Quake) are also "unfixed bugs" but it's a part of the game. Also it's questionable if poke/wiggle is really a bug or not just a valid use of the game mechanics. Because it's for sure wanted that you can 1) move the saber with your mouse and 2) do as long damage as the saber is moving. And that's really what it is.

[eiTani]

So it takes a lot of skill because one guy managed to get over 300? 100-130 should be enough and requires very little skill.

 

If I can do it, then everyone can do it.

[afi]

Yes that's the definition of a high skill ceiling. The more features you remove, the lower the skill ceiling. And it's about doing it constantly (and not on JA+).

Obviously everyone has the capability to learn this skill but you have to invest time to be good in it and not everyone is equally good at it. You only perfected it if you don't need more than one hit to kill anyone, no matter what. And how many players are really that good? You can be decent at this game without knowing anything about poke (p!ng is an example for someone who doesn't use poke while still being a good player) and the game would work without it but it adds depth and that's the point. Quake would also work without strafe- and rocket jumps but how boring would it be compared to what it is.

[Futuza]

Wut....

 

Isn't that how the majority of games with communities operate? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're being a little unfair here.  First you say x feature sucks, game should change, then you say mods suck.  Okay well if mods suck then why do you want to change the game?  If you think modding is okay though then we don't have a problem, in fact most of your complaints find closure in various mods.  For example poking doesn't really exist in JKG's saber system and the combat is completely different.  Regardless, you're not going to have a massive resurgence of player numbers unless we get a new game.  Getting a new game means getting a licence from EA/Disney and working under their supervision and approval.  They've got another 2 years of milking Battlefront before they try something else.  You're asking for the impossible, sorry to break it to you.