A Certain Togruta

[Cerez]

I can't believe this... You guys are acting like a bunch of bullies, you know that? What makes you think you know this project better than I do, in the first place? Cadellin and I have seen this through in detail, and I've been there every step of the way in the making. Can you say the same? It is one thing to offer constructive criticism, and a completely different thing to aggressively criticise -- in numbers! -- someone's completed work for independent (selfish?) reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the progress of this WIP project. Did I ask for a lecture on modeling? Did I ask for expert appraisal? Whatever design choices were made, they were our design choices, and they are our problem to deal with -- not that they were much of a problem. I think I deserve a big apology from the lot of you… I've never been this disappointed in JKHub's veterans before. I just can't believe your behaviour, acting as a group. This is definitely not the way to encourage new talent… in fact, quite the opposite…

 

If you wish to discuss this further, please create a new, Off Topic thread for the discussion. Don't post any more of this ugly stuff here. And in the future, please refrain from criticising my WIP projects. I've had enough! If I want a full-on critical review, I'll ask for it. Opinions are welcome on how to improve on the work in progress, but not this kind of un-constructive criticism that only serves to upset me and delay the progress of the project. That's quite an evil thing to do...

 

***************************************************************************************************************

 

Anyway, for those still interested in seeing this work further developed and released, an update:

 

 

This is a close-up on her traditional Togruta sash that is now finished, and her bodice and thighs. I've decided to give the clothes are a realistic interpretation of the materials -- as opposed to the unified, all over grungy feel, stylised material she seems to wear -- and everybody more or less seems to wear -- in the cartoon. I've kept a very similar, but more detailed material on the bodice, but her thighs and sash are of different materials now, that should be more suited to their role. These details are mostly visible in up-close angles, and help add to the realism.

 

Here is how the front of her is looking now in ModView:

 

 

Obviously, I'm still working on the belt and the rest of her.

 

I'm open to suggestions on how to improve on the buckle. I'm thinking to give it some of the worn and grungy, metallic feel from the cartoon, but I don't want to make it just plain gray. It's meant to be decorative, after all. Should I add a little wear to it, or should I leave it clean? Does it need more of a metallic shine?

 

Next are the arm-pads and boots, I think. I plan to turn them into a real leather design that closely resembles her Clone Wars arm-pads and boots. I will also, of course, attempt to paint detailed anatomy into her open back, arms, and hands. Wish me luck on that one…

 

(And yes, I'll get back to the face, eventually… The problems are mostly in the texture, not in the model.)

[DarthDementous]

@@Boothand

 

I have to stop by this thread and say that your first model is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen.

 

I appreciate you guys not following suite into a heated discussion but rather remaining calm and explaining why you're doing what you're doing. I understand that accepting criticism is hard @@Cerez, like you I want to believe that whatever I'm creating is fantastic but it really helps to step away from it and let someone else take an unbiased view on it especially if they have experience in the field. However, 'constructive' criticism like my friend gave: "This map needs to be more blue, isn't night time blue" can be safely ignored.

 

All joking aside I hope that you've just taken a break from this thread to clear your head and will hopefully return with a little bit more open-mindedness.

 

EDIT (In relation to the post above): Are you not releasing this for the JKHub community? If you are, then you aren't just making this model for yourself and should consider what others want if you're trying to make a product for the consumers. If you don't plan on releasing it and just want to showcase your progress for those that are interested (I personally enjoy watching something being created from the ground up) then I feel that you don't have to make any changes you don't want to. Just make sure you keep the two separate.

[Lamented]

I can't believe this... You guys are acting like a bunch of bullies, you know that? What makes you think you know this project better than I do, in the first place? Cadellin and I have seen this through in detail, and I've been there every step of the way in the making. Can you say the same? It is one thing to offer constructive criticism, and a completely different thing to aggressively criticise -- in numbers! -- someone's completed work for independent (selfish?) reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the progress of this WIP project. Did I ask for a lecture on modeling? Did I ask for expert appraisal? Whatever design choices were made, they were our design choices, and they are our problem to deal with -- not that they were much of a problem. I think I deserve a big apology from the lot of you… I've never been this disappointed in JKHub's veterans before. I just can't believe your behaviour, acting as a group. This is definitely not the way to encourage new talent… in fact, quite the opposite…

 

If you wish to discuss this further, please create a new, Off Topic thread for the discussion. Don't post any more of this ugly stuff here. And in the future, please refrain from criticising my WIP projects. I've had enough! If I want a full-on critical review, I'll ask for it. Opinions are welcome on how to improve on the work in progress, but not this kind of un-constructive criticism that only serves to upset me and delay the progress of the project. That's quite an evil thing to do...

 

https://youtu.be/HE9pbP8tNck?t=25s

 

...Jesus...

 

All joking aside though, all I've been able to tell from this thread is that @@minilogoguy18, @@AshuraDX, @@DT85, and @@eezstreet have given you very helpful compliments, suggestions, references, tips, and criticism. I understand we all, at one point, have this box in our brain where we store all of those things and transform the amount--rather than the value--into something frightening, deadly, big. I can't tell if you've actually read all those things they posted. They're actually quite helpful and politely conveyed if you pay attention. I don't exactly see any reason to turn one-man army on everybody who's tried to help you. You just have to accept that you're not perfect at what you're doing--hell, no one is. People like DT85 and AshuraDX are definitely very experienced, and instead of shutting out their attempts to help you, you should take them into consideration. I won't lie, I noticed you liked DT85's last comment, and I also noticed that it probably had the most silver-platter treatment of any comment in this thread.

 

Take Chalklyne's Starkiller model thread, for example. He put up with 20+ pages of far more overwhelming comments and such, but he never gave up. He was very calm and understanding. Did you see him rage at a single person?

 

You, on the other hand, are making a huge deal over a few neutral and helpful comments. You certainly have a right to be proud of this model, but you shouldn't take this pride at absolute face value and hold it in higher regard than anything else. Otherwise, your success might go nowhere fast.

 

Cerez, you're pretty nice to me, and for that I thank you. But to be honest, you should be the one apologizing to everyone. I know where you've been by experience and as someone who has been in your shoes (in a sense), I suggest you calm down, learn to appreciate others, accept the fact that there's greater things in your profession than pride, and grow into a blossoming example for others.

 

EDIT: Why did you even make this thread if you don't want people to pass judgment?

[IrocJeff]

There is a whole thread that I suggested over last summer that dealt with modeling tutorials since many people were being shot down over their requests. It WAS to be a place people who modeled or skinned could put together some tutorials or articles or whatever to guide new users on doing this themselves. This whole tris vs quads thing could have had an article written or linked to but the whole concept of that thread was pretty lost on most that posted in it. 

 

 

[Cerez]

Guys, the point is not that the some of the suggestions were not useful in general, but that they are only serving to hinder this project. @@AshuraDX's detailed feedback is enlightening, even if it doesn't really help this project. Can't say the same about some of the other comments... I've liked @@DT85's comment because he's not afraid to compliment, which shows self-confidence. I am not asking for silver platter treatment, only no excessive scrutiny, and comments that actually serve to help me improve on this work.
 
But please, for the love of God, let's put all this aside and concentrate on the continuing the development of the project again. If anyone feels the need to discuss, please open a new thread. This is a WIP thread for this project, after all. Not a discussion thread about ethics or personal conduct.
 

I appreciate you guys not following suite into a heated discussion but rather remaining calm and explaining why you're doing what you're doing. I understand that accepting criticism is hard @@Cerez, like you I want to believe that whatever I'm creating is fantastic but it really helps to step away from it and let someone else take an unbiased view on it especially if they have experience in the field. However, 'constructive' criticism like my friend gave: "This map needs to be more blue, isn't night time blue" can be safely ignored.

 
I'll answer this, for reference. Constructive criticism is something that helps the development of the work of art, not hinders it. I have no problem with constructive criticism, no matter how harsh it appears. Though, it's always a good idea to include a few praises as well, especially to fresh talent, who additionally have the challenge of the struggle with their insecurities in their newly acquired abilities.

You cannot ask anyone to be open-minded to being put under excessive scrutiny and harsh criticism for their hard work without balanced praise. That's like whipping a slave in order to get them to work harder. Not my idea of a pleasant working experience, nor very productive...
 

(In relation to the post above): Are you not releasing this for the JKHub community? If you are, then you aren't just making this model for yourself and should consider what others want if you're trying to make a product for the consumers. If you don't plan on releasing it and just want to showcase your progress for those that are interested (I personally enjoy watching something being created from the ground up) then I feel that you don't have to make any changes you don't want to. Just make sure you keep the two separate.

Thanks for your thoughts, @@DarthDementous. I am making this model primarily for myself, as a challenge and work of love, as is most often the case. An artist works for their own fulfilment. However, I am also keeping an eye on everyone else's feedback in order to ensure that other people will like and enjoy the model, too. Otherwise I would not have started this thread. And yes, I plan to share it with everyone when it's complete.

[eezstreet]

The mesh could do with improvement, but no further poking of the bear is needed, so to speak. @@Cerez doesn't want any feedback of the mesh I guess, so let's keep on the subject of the textures?

[Cerez]

The mesh could do with improvement, but no further poking of the bear is needed, so to speak. @@Cerez doesn't want any feedback of the mesh I guess, so let's keep on the subject of the textures?

 

Thank you. The model is finished and rigged, and working fine. I'm working on the textures now, trying to bring her to a polished state. Any feedback on the textures is welcome. I'm trying to get a close resemblance happening while interpreting her design into realism.

 

So, once again:

 

 

This is a close-up on her traditional Togruta sash that is now finished, and her bodice and thighs. I've decided to give the clothes are a realistic interpretation of the materials -- as opposed to the unified, all over grungy feel, stylised material she seems to wear -- and everybody more or less seems to wear -- in the cartoon. I've kept a very similar, but more detailed material on the bodice, but her thighs and sash are of different materials now, that should be more suited to their role. These details are mostly visible in up-close angles, and help add to the realism.

 

Here is how the front of her is looking now in ModView:

 

 

Obviously, I'm still working on the belt and the rest of her.

 

I'm open to suggestions on how to improve on the buckle. I'm thinking to give it some of the worn and grungy, metallic feel from the cartoon, but I don't want to make it just plain gray. It's meant to be decorative, after all. Should I add a little wear to it, or should I leave it clean? Does it need more of a metallic shine?

 

Next are the arm-pads and boots, I think. I plan to turn them into a real leather design that closely resembles her Clone Wars arm-pads and boots. I will also, of course, attempt to paint detailed anatomy into her open back, arms, and hands. Wish me luck on that one…

 

(And yes, I'll get back to the face, eventually… The problems are mostly in the texture, not in the model.)

[Tempust85]

The buckle I would add any roughness to the specular texture, other than that it looks fine. It doesn't need any edge wear as this isn't a battle-worn version. So is this a realistic version or the stylized look from the series? Either way, it's coming along great. B)

[Cerez]

Thanks. It's a realistic version, but her clothes are quite clean, other than when she's in the heat of battle. The ModView shot there looks a little too colourised because she's missing the texture on her arms and hands, and because my ModView just likes to show rainbow colours.  (Something to do with Windows XP's colour settings...) And the arm pads are just a placeholder at the moment. Her actual colours are much closer to the Silo shot above.

 

That's a good idea with the specular shader. I'll see if I can include one...   Thanks @@DT85!

[minilogoguy18]

You should try and figure a way to set Silo's viewport to render textures exactly as ModView renders them, that way you don't end up with textures that look too bright or washed out in game. I do this in Softimage by simply setting the viewport setting to "Textured Decal" you may have a similar setting, it's pretty much a full bright setting that ignores all lighting in the program and no shadows are cast of course.

[Cerez]

Thanks for the tip, @@minilogoguy18, but as I said, the colour difference in ModView is due to my Windows XP's primitive colour settings (I'm running it in a virtual machine). What Silo is displaying is what's actually the colour of the textures in the game, and what I'm aiming for -- so all is fine, no need to worry.

 

Edit: Based on the references, her clothes are of a reddish-brownish leather colour that seems to change with the lighting from brown to a deeper red at times. So I'm aiming for that middle balance between deep red and brown.

[Cerez]

A small update:

 

 

The belt is mostly finished. I'm going for a soft kangaroo/deer leather look with her primary clothes, as that seems to match closest the colours and texture of what she's wearing in the show, and is relatively durable. Something like this, but a little thicker:

 

 

I have a bit of a dilemma with the pouch, however. If I'm going to include the pouch as a 3D accessory, the path of the torso/hips decap lies right in the middle of where the pouch is located. Should I cut the pouch in two, and attach the top half to the torso, and the bottom half to the hips, or should I leave the pouch attached to the hips instead (and ignore the fact that the saber would have cut through it). Which do you think is better?

[AshuraDX]

keep it as part of the hip - don't cut the pouch in half

 

by the way - if you don't mind pushing a few vertices around in her face, try reshaping her eyes to be a little more rounded, as seen here :

or this sculpt someone made :

 

looking at her arms you'll probably want to add a little more modeled detail to her bracers, seeing that they are not skin tight in the series

[Cerez]

@@DT85, I'm honestly amazed with what a few well placed/designed shaders can accomplish in this game! I think in large part they are the definition between digital paint and realism:

 

 

by the way - if you don't mind pushing a few vertices around in her face, try reshaping her eyes to be a little more rounded, as seen here

 

I did a brief test run on this, and she does look a little younger with the mid-bottom vertexes just pushed down a very little to make the eyes just a tad rounder, so I will likely end up implementing this suggestion. Thanks @@AshuraDX.

 

looking at her arms you'll probably want to add a little more modeled detail to her bracers, seeing that they are not skin tight in the series

 

There is only so much I can tweak on the finished model, now. The model was not designed with raised bracers in mind. There is only so much detail that JKA allows for, as well, in its general design direction, and much of the other models' details have been textured. I'm afraid the bracers and shinpads/boots will need to stay textured on this model.

 

Also, I feel the need for a disclaimer:

 

Since this is a realistic interpretation, some minor details may be different to her Clone Wars TV show look. I've taken that much artistic liberty with her design, and some of this is absolutely necessary due to her real human shape, now. I am still aiming to get her looking and resembling her late Clone Wars look as much as possible, but some slight differences are unavoidable -- which is fine, considering that HapSlash's Anakin compared to his Clone Wars look is no different in this regard...

 

I am basically aiming to create an Ahsoka that will match well with HS's Anakin and Obi-Wan models, not a 100% accurate Clone Wars Ahsoka per se.

 

(Otherwise, I could spend a lifetime refining and tweaking this model and its textures to meet the near-impossible line between realism and a cartoon design. It's a character for a relatively low-definition, action game after all, not a high definition masterpiece intended for artistic gallery display, so some less significant details will need to be compromised.)

[JAWSFreelao]

Dude that's a great shader. It looks GREAT.

[Cerez]

It's still not finished, but thanks, @@JAWSFreelao.

 

I'm halfway through with her arm-pads texture. There's still the boots to do, the face touch-up, the hands, the back, and the overall skin shading. And then the final touches and sound sampling... >.<' Lots to do, yet...

 

But I like how she's turning out. I also love @'s expanded Clone Wars maps! Having her walk through the streets of undercity Coruscant just feels way too cool! (I know... Coming soon, guys...)

 

(And here I thought modeling was the hard part! Rigging her, texturing, and getting all the details right have been much-much harder...)

[Tempust85]

It looks great.

 

The only thing I suggest is model the belt & gauntlets. You should be able to just cut directly into the mesh and enhance the detail without screwing up your existing UV's, but not sure what Silo (I read you're modelling in that package?) can do.

[Cerez]

It looks great.

 

The only thing I suggest is model the belt & gauntlets. You should be able to just cut directly into the mesh and enhance the detail without screwing up your existing UV's, but not sure what Silo (I read you're modelling in that package?) can do.

 

Silo can do it, but my rig is in an old version of 3DS Max. The main problem with this idea, however, is that if you have a good look at how Ahsoka's belt, gauntlets and boots lie, you'll quickly realise that none of them are on a straight line. They go diagonally all over the place. This makes shaping anything out of the existing mesh a living nightmare. So even if I could retain the UV map and weighting, I would still not attempt to do this. The model has to be planned for it from the ground up, otherwise it doesn't really work. And that's a lot of detail to add, especially around the belt.

 

Nope, sorry guys, but we'll have to keep them textured for this one. But a lot of the original game characters have them textured, including Luke -- so I don't see a big problem here.

 

Edit: I will model the pouch, though.

[Cerez]

I've finished the arm-pads/gauntlets/bracers/whatever:

 

 

It feels good in-game. I'm not sure how you'll feel about it, but I'm not missing the 3D geo. Might tone down the colour on the clips a bit...

[Barricade24]

This is a blasted good model. She looks great. My only nitpick is that I really don't like mirrored textures. I'm not sure how much extra work goes into doing that though.

[JAWSFreelao]

Yeah dude. I think @@Cerez could model literally anything he (she?) wanted to at this point. Very crafty, considering he/she figured out how to use the shaders to their advantage. Obviously pretty good with textures as well.

[AshuraDX]

I don't know wether yo usaid you were done with her back or not but take a look at this when oyu get to texturing her back - atm it's just not right regarding shapes

check these out : https://www.anatomy4sculptors.com/anatomy.php?menu=184&sub=186

[z3filus]

that image is taken from the wrong side, front please..

[eezstreet]

that image is taken from the wrong side, front please..

Nice try.

[Cerez]

I don't know wether yo usaid you were done with her back or not but take a look at this when oyu get to texturing her back - atm it's just not right regarding shapes

check these out : https://www.anatomy4sculptors.com/anatomy.php?menu=184&sub=186

 

Yep, the skin shading and details are next on my to-do, after the boots. At the moment it's just rough markers on the back. Thanks @@AshuraDX! This will come in real handy.