Jan Ors head (Hi-Def)

[Bek]

"Off in the depths of the Internets, a group of modelers discuss the head proportions of Mandy Amano's head, while she is completely oblivious to the fact that she is being added to a game."

[Cerez]

The corners just need to be lifted a little bit from a frown into a neutral position.

I'm going to summon/invite my senpai, @@AshuraDX, as well for his insight on human anatomy.

[DT.]

Just need the verts spread out more so the high poly doesn't look pinched. Here's a good flow for a mouth:

 

http://www.secondpicture.com/tutorials/3d/3d_modeling_a_mouth_in_3ds_max.html

 

 

Notice how it's only quads, not tris. Not saying you are using tris but if you are, you should fix it.

[AshuraDX]

@@DT85 after examining some of his shots it's quite cleear that he's using mostly quads around the mouth, or atelast I could not spot any triangles

but I have to agree that the corners of her mouth are very sharp right now - too sharp

the corners  could also use a slight lift as @@Cerez pointed out

 

If I remember correctly you're going to have a bad time fixing this up though @@Archangel35757

You are not working with a subdivided mesh here, are you ?

if you don't then you got a very high density mesh at your hands and therefor a few hundred vertices to tweak by hand - I'd recommend using soft selection in this case

combined with clever use of the relay tool you might be able to get the alterations done quite fast

 

an alternative would be using the paint deformation tools in max (which max 8 doesn't have afaik) or importing the mesh into mudbox and using the grab + smooth brush to

reshape those areas.

 

EDIT :  if you are not working witzhj a subdivided mesh I'd recommend doing a retopology of your current mesh, focusing on topology, not shape and then use a turbosmooth modifier to smooth it out

if done correctly you should be able to retain the shapoe of your current head - with a lot less vertices to tweak and also : if you keep your initial retopo low in vertex and tri count you could technically use it as a basis for your lowpoly

 

I never did retopo in max 8 but I think there's a very nice script called "WrapIt" somewhere,  for retopo I'd move the scene to a newer max version that offers Graphite Tools, alternatively you could use mudbox 2014 and above or 3d coat for quick and easy retopo

Also : why even bother using max 8 - you made working in newer max versions entirely possible ?

[Archangel35757]

@@AshuraDX: It's ALL quads-- Not a single triangle anywhere. Max8 does have paint deformation. I also have the plugin for Max8 of what became known as "Graphite Modeling Tools" (after Autodesk bought the plugin and incorporated natively).

 

I also have Mudbox and 3D Coat... I will have to use one of these tools to retopologize eventually. I also have the shrinkwrap/wrapIt scripts.

 

Except for some minor tweaking the relaxed state of one's mouth muscles has a slight downward arc... to raise the corners means you are flexing your mouth & cheek muscles... the "bones" would be placed along this arc ...but I'll research it a bit more.

[Cerez]

Except for some minor tweaking the relaxed state of one's mouth muscles has a slight downward arc... to raise the corners means you are flexing your mouth & cheek muscles... the "bones" would be placed along this arc ...but I'll research it a bit more.

 

Depends on the shape of the mouth/lips. You have individuals whose lips/mouth curve(s) into a smile even when they're solemn -- actress Meg Ryan is a prime example. But in Mandy's case they're almost completely horizontal when relaxed (with that little up-turned shadow/groove at the corner of the lips that we usually texture in JKA).

 

 

 

 

 

[Archangel35757]

I contend that her mouth is not relaxed and she's pulling the corners of her mouth inward. The side picture of her putting on movie makeup shows hers lips are relaxed... and the mesh follows that. My mouth does the same slight downward arc when I completely relax all of my facial muscles.

[Cerez]

I think the way our mouth stands in its natural, "relaxed" state is often reflective of our mood. When we die, I expect everyone's mouth would more or less droop like that, but while we're living, even while we're relaxed, we do keep our muscles active to an extent -- so if we're in a relatively okay/good mood, we'd keep our lips more or less horizontal. But that's just my two cents.

[eezstreet]

I think Archangel is right, the movie makeup screenshot is the most accurate one to follow. Remember that the face isn't getting rigged to JKA's skeleton, it's getting rigged to a custom one. Facial expression will be modified by mood, and compensating for the model will lead to distortion. You need the face to be absolutely relaxed as possible otherwise you'll get the JA effect of the face being distorted by two different emotions being played at the same time.

[Cerez]

I can see your point of view... I guess it's a question of what you want to make the new standard face template/base for the new facial animations.

 

If the animation will be responsible for lifting the drooping corners of the mouth to a lively and neutral position, then by all means the models need to have a dead-fish expression when they are designed.

 

On the other hand, a horizontal position for the corners of the mouth would eliminate the need for lifting the corners to create the lively, neutral steady expression, and still allow you to bring it up to a smile or bring it down to a frown/sadness, or a dead expression (but in this case that would require animation work to accomplish).

 

Either way works. It depends on what you choose to implement. When we have a problem is when we design a model for one method, and end up implementing the other method for animating the facial expressions.

[Psyk0Sith]

-I don't think the height of the head is big deal, no skulls are shaped alike anyway and covered by hair most of the time.
-Top lip is actually made up of 3 forms, both sides are shaped out instead of in...like you currently have.

-Mouth corners should be softer and not pinched.

 

 

[Cerez]

I still disagree with the importance of the size and shape of the skull -- especially with shorter or flattened hairstyles -- but these pointers for the mouth/lips are superb! If we're going by this, then I too recommend we design models with the "relaxed" lips/mouth. This is a nice middle ground between the drooping and the horizontal, and it feels natural and pleasant to look at.

[Archangel35757]

Ok... I believe I have the head proportions sorted out now.  I've merged the working file of the inner mouth and teeth in with my latest head mesh... and now I need to tweak the lips.  After I get the lips sorted out I will post new screenshots.

[Archangel35757]

Update on the lips (disregard the outer skin glitches around the lips because I've detached the lips from the rest of the head mesh):

 

 

There's a few verts I need to smooth at the top of forehead and I still need to smooth in the outer sides of the lips-- but it's shaping up... still a WIP with much to do...

[Cerez]

The head/skull proportions are perfect to the subject reference now, @@Archangel35757. Looking great. I think the nose base could use a little widening, and the lips (of course) still need work to match them closer to reference:

 

1. The downward mouth curve still needs to be lifted/straightened (and broken into three segments, three curves) a little bit to match Psyk0's reference, and make her mouth look more relaxed and natural.

2. The groove between the nose and the lips needs to be a little wider -- this makes the shape of the top-mid section of the lips. Currently it's too narrow, even for Mandy...

 

This will be an amazing model and likeness when finished.

[Archangel35757]

Not much of an update... but I welded the vertices around the lips, joining it to the rest of the facial mesh... and rescaled the hair meshes a bit after @@Cerez convinced me to increase her head height...

 

 

By the way, some time ago I reached out to Mandy on her facebook page and I was quite surprised to receive a reply today

 

 

Mandy Amano

Whoa, that's crazy! I don't usually handle this page's messages, but I see you've written a few times so I knew I had to write you back personally   Thank you for writing and for sending me your progress, looks really cool! Best, Mandy

[DT.]

We should totally have Archcangel do any PR, he seems to be able contact anyone. Dare you to contact Mark Hamil and show him the horrible base JKA version of him.

[Archangel35757]

@@DT85 -- ROTFL... maybe we should re-work the Luke Skywalker model first... 

[eezstreet]

Nice job. I wouldn't think she would reply.

[Nozyspy]

GIVE ME YOUR SOUL!

 

That is deeply terrifying!

[Bek]

How goes the hair, @@Archangel35757?

[Archangel35757]

@@Bek -- I haven't worked on the Jan Ors model recently.  As you are aware I've been working on her ship the Raven's Claw.  Once I get a little further along with the Raven's Claw, I'll try to juggle both projects.

[Bek]

@@Bek -- I haven't worked on the Jan Ors model recently.  As you are aware I've been working on her ship the Raven's Claw.  Once I get a little further along with the Raven's Claw, I'll try to juggle both projects.

I was just checking up on the progress, I'm not trying to stress you or anything dude, we all appreciate the work you're doing. I just didn't know you do one project at a time, not many modelers do this. 

[Archangel35757]

I was just checking up on the progress, I'm not trying to stress you or anything dude, we all appreciate the work you're doing. I just didn't know you do one project at a time, not many modelers do this.

 

I have a number of projects ongoing ...I'm busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.

[Archangel35757]

I'll try and have an update on the head mesh, hair, & lip area next week. Thanks for everyone's patience...