Mappers: What editor/version do you use, and why?

[Boothand]

I'm asking because I frequently have to switch between GtkRadiant 1.5 and 1.6.x because of its different functions and benefits. And I'm reaching the point where it really gets frustrating because of bugs.

 

The 1.6 GtkRadiant compared to 1.5 is a must when using the vertex tool. However, every single time I use the vertex tool, it has a 60-70% chance of breaking my brush, making it invalid, detaching the vertex, adding an extra vertex where it shouldn't exist, and ultimately deleting my brush possibly when using the brush cleanup tool, and duplicating itself when I ctrl Z my way back, and sometimes there is no way back. On top of all of this, when I finally get it to work, it's only a matter of time before I can come back to the same area and find that it's been broken and bugged again and I have to re-do so many brushes. And on top of that again, when it even seems fine in the editor, finally I compile it and find that it's completely broken in-game, with holes and gaps all over the seams.

 

And there's quite a lot of mappers here, and it makes me curious - what do you use? What advantages, disadvantages compared to any of these?

 

Some benefits and disadvantages that I see:

 

1.5

• Great navigation in 3D view, possible to move camera in all directions smoothly using ctrl, shift and mouse. 1.6 is missing some features here making it harder to navigate.
• In-built texture folder menu + easy to reach texture/shader reloading buttons. Much easier than 1.6.
• Generally stable software that has intact functions.

 

• You must split brushes manually before using the vertex tool (for terrain and other bent brushes).
• Only has box select, not the 'rolling' over visible brushes with the mouse.
• Buggy artifacts in the 3D view (at least on Win 7) if you don't use Windows Basic theme (or so)

 

1.6

 

• Has a way to shift the face of a brush around, used by alt + left click.
• Superior vertex editing tool
• Shows alpha channel-shaders in the 3D view, makes a nice preview besides some bugginess.
• More features (I haven't tried most though), also available in the menus and UI

 

• Generally crashy software, many functions do not work and it may crash when using certain tools.
• Doesn't have box select, only 'rolling over' visible brushes with the mouse.
• Surface inspector doesn't stay in front, makes it hard to use. Otherwise a bit buggy.
• Vertex tool can be more handy, but will often destroy your brushes (Brush Cleanup)
• No translation tool/gizmo (W in 1.5) and no rotation gizmo.
• Can't undo texturing done by ctrl shift middle mouse (which you can in 1.5)
• Often displays buggy gaps in split brushes. Don't know if this is caused by 1.6, or only revealed by 1.6
• Bad navigation (and seemingly low FPS when moving camera)
• Bugged rotation tool.
• Clumsy axis rotation tool (offsets from original position when used).

[mrwonko]

I prefer not to use the vertex tool at all because as you mentioned it's easy to create broken brushes. Instead I move edges and use the clipping tool.

 

Back when I started all we had was 1.4. I got used to that and never got into 1.5, so I jumped straight to 1.6.

[Pande]

I'm using a mix of Blender and 1.5 lately.

[Boothand]

I'm using a mix of Blender and 1.5 lately.

 

Ooo! .ase exports to 1.5 + clip brushes in GtkRadiant?

 

Otherwise, how do you deal with organic shapes etc - vertex tool vs clipping tool?

[DT.]

For shapes that require a fair amount of detail, it's best to use misc_model.

 

I use 1.5, because the 1.6 I've tried recently is missing things from the ui rendering it unusable.

[Pande]

If I am going to do terrain in Radiant I do it with a brush that looks like this:

 

 

Because you can't break it as you described in the first post unless you drag one of the face vertices past the back vertex (the apex). 

 

I use .md3 for models from Blender but .ase works too. 

[Boothand]

I think I'm gonna start trying to get 3ds max into my workflow, granted I can get it to properly snap to my current map geometry and export to scale. A possible downside is that I don't know how to texture it with the same evenness and consistency that GtkRadiant does. UV mapping can be a bit frustrating compared to radiant's simple wrap + surface inspector.

[lil_binger]

I used 1.4 for the longest time.  I tried 1.5 but I had some problems with it and many at the time said that 1.4 was more stable than 1.5 even though 1.5 had some tools that weren't readily accessable in 1.4.  Since coming back to editing maps again I've been really happy with 1.6 minus the texture editing using some patches which seem to distort the image more.

 

I think there is an option or possibly a button for selecting vertices that will select only one or a column or row.  If I want to select one vertex I usually select it in the 3d view then slide it around in the 2d view. 

 

Vertex editing has always had it's ups and downs.  There are a few things to follow that help when editing vertexes to reduce some errors that occur but some times you just have to go with what GTK will allow assuming it fits closely (maybe not exactly) with what you want to do.  I haven't had bobtools clean up many vertex edited brushes often because I try to work with the limitations rather than against them.  Moving vertices around I will need to change the unit grid to move them around correctly without causing problem.  Sometimes you need to visualize where you will need to move them and cutting the object on a grid corner is needed to prevent the brush from breaking.  Best way I have found is always edit vertices on grid points or corners,  if the vertices don't line up on these points it can cause some problems when trying to line up those points with another brush etc.

 

1.6 can be a little buggy sometimes though.  Some problems I have may be due to my graphics card.  I haven't had many crashes but I've had a few.  Sometimes it's hard to edit anything because the brush won't show up when I zoom in in the 2d view but I can see it when I zoom out.  Sometimes I see ghost images of an area in one section that doesn't have any objects in it.  I am happy with 1.6 editing maps for JK2 even though JK2 isn't supported and only shows me stuff that works in JA in the entity window because I have the JA install point at JK2 gamedata.  The biggest complaint I have is texturing some patchwork where no matter what I do the texture is all messed up and down right ugly.

[Archangel35757]

I think I'm gonna start trying to get 3ds max into my workflow, granted I can get it to properly snap to my current map geometry and export to scale. A possible downside is that I don't know how to texture it with the same evenness and consistency that GtkRadiant does. UV mapping can be a bit frustrating compared to radiant's simple wrap + surface inspector.

Has anyone tested out the 3dsMax .map exporter yet?

[Boothand]

I always edit vertices on grid. If they come off grid, I remake them, or snap them back to grid (with high chance of breaking). One of the issues I guess, is that sometimes when the brush gets triangulated by the vertex moving, it gets restricted in some directions and you can't move it to really obvious spots. By the time it has reached that limitation, it has often broken.

 

Importing to max via .obj export works really well apparently. Exporting the re-made brushes out again, they come back on grid. It can be retextured by _remap. Using .ase for now. Cool cool.

[Apprentice]

I'm still using 1.2 and 1.4 and it works flawlessly for what I am doing it. Too bad that 1.2 doesn't support Jedi Academy though, otherwise I would've sticked with that version . . .

[IrocJeff]

I primarily use 1.4 that is what I'm comfortable with. I use 1.5 when I have terrain blending to compile because the version of q3map2 in 1.4 doesn't want seem to compile it. 1.5 has a better 3d view but I don't like the selection part in the 3d view because sometimes it'll select too much if I drag the mouse around where 1.4 doesn't. Even stuff that I can't see in the 3d view beyond the room I'm in.  I'm also not a fan of the texture menu in that bottom window. Its buggy for me where I get a white bar up in the 3d view from when I scroll  the texture window and I like the selection for everything up top. 

 

I had issues with both editors when I would move sections of my map that were too large and both seemed to crash moving the same areas. I also ran into issues where it seems 1.4 had a tendency to act up and mouse buttons seemed to be re-mapped. I'd lose all 3d movement at times. I'd just shut down and restart the program and it'd work again. 

 

Between the two I think I had 1 second faster compile time with 1.5 over 1.4 using the TEST compile with Super2 in it. For a 12,000 brush map it took 145 seconds in 1.5 and 146 in 1.4. 

 

I know I can build and do stuff quicker in 1.4 since that's what I'm used to and I think that's why I stick with it. 

[Boothand]

I primarily use 1.4 that is what I'm comfortable with. I use 1.5 when I have terrain blending to compile because the version of q3map2 in 1.4 doesn't want seem to compile it. 1.5 has a better 3d view but I don't like the selection part in the 3d view because sometimes it'll select too much if I drag the mouse around where 1.4 doesn't. Even stuff that I can't see in the 3d view beyond the room I'm in.  I'm also not a fan of the texture menu in that bottom window. Its buggy for me where I get a white bar up in the 3d view from when I scroll  the texture window and I like the selection for everything up top. 

 

If 1.4 is like 1.6, I find the selection tool a bit slow sometimes, if I want to move portions of my map. In 1.5 I could select roughly what I wanted to move in one go, then unselect what I didn't need. In 1.6 I have to touch every brush, and it might include a lot of 3D navigation in all kinds of places behind walls, inside things that are closed off etc, just to get a selection.

 

The texture menu is one of the main reasons why I like 1.5 actually. I do a lot of custom texture work (and lots of tweaking, so that means a lot of texture re-loading etc). It's really handy to have it there for that.

[IrocJeff]

If 1.4 is like 1.6, I find the selection tool a bit slow sometimes, if I want to move portions of my map. In 1.5 I could select roughly what I wanted to move in one go, then unselect what I didn't need. In 1.6 I have to touch every brush, and it might include a lot of 3D navigation in all kinds of places behind walls, inside things that are closed off etc, just to get a selection.

 

The texture menu is one of the main reasons why I like 1.5 actually. I do a lot of custom texture work (and lots of tweaking, so that means a lot of texture re-loading etc). It's really handy to have it there for that.

 

Do you mean a 2d or 3d selection or both. I don't think in 1.4 you can shift click in the 2d window and select stuff, at least I never figured out how. Is that what you mean when you say about selection being slow? Could processor and/or ram affect this much ? I don't seam to notice any function of either editor I use to be laggy or hang up other than when moving too much stuff at once. 

[Boothand]

Do you mean a 2d or 3d selection or both. I don't think in 1.4 you can shift click in the 2d window and select stuff, at least I never figured out how. Is that what you mean when you say about selection being slow? Could processor and/or ram affect this much ? I don't seam to notice any function of either editor I use to be laggy or hang up other than when moving too much stuff at once. 

 

I meant slow workflow. Yeah, selecting in the 3D view in 1.6, you shift click and drag, but will only select the brushes that your mouse touches.

[IrocJeff]

I meant slow workflow. Yeah, selecting in the 3D view in 1.6, you shift click and drag, but will only select the brushes that your mouse touches.

 

Biggest thing that slows my workflow is called getting sidetracked on the internet on something stupid..    

[NumberWan]

I prefer to build in Gtk Radiant 1.4. It has all the quick buttons set as I prefer to work. Some functions also work just fine in it, for instance, to apply the texture from a different brush in the map, I can just click on the side of the brush easily, instead of searching for it in the list of textures. Some similar functions satisfy me in 1.4. more than in the next versions, though I acknowledge, that they might exist in newer versions, but I am simply unaware of them.

 

But I do use Radiant 1.5. Usually for those cases, when the map is almost complete, but I need to create or fix new mountains, terrain, add some architectural stuff, which is not the same in 1.4. due to some limitations. I also prefer to compile maps in 1.5. or later, because it deals greatly with such things like blending textures in a map.

 

It's BehavEd and some other software which is in need of renovation no doubt.

[mrwonko]

It's BehavEd and some other software which is in need of renovation no doubt.

I'm not sure how BehavEd could be improved... It supports just about everything you can do (well, almost), its only limitation is it being Windows-only. Or what are you thinking of?

 

I agree with the other Software though - all the visual editors (MD3View, ModView, EffectsEd) could use some shader support, for example, and carcass isn't that great either.

[MoonDog]

When I did JKA stuff I used 1.6, 1.5 and blender.

 

1.6 for most of my building. 1.5 for model placement, making complicated meshes, trisouping and patch texturing.

 

 

Misleading topic title btw. These are all different version of the same editor. The best answer though is that GTKRadiant blows.

[Boothand]

When I did JKA stuff I used 1.6, 1.5 and blender.

 

1.6 for most of my building. 1.5 for model placement, making complicated meshes, trisouping and patch texturing.

 

 

Misleading topic title btw. These are all different version of the same editor. The best answer though is that GTKRadiant blows.

 

I was curious also if someone was *actually* using a different editor as well though. But fixed topic title.

For example doing brushwork in an editor without bugs and compatible with GTKradiant's map format. Not sure if such exists, I only know there's a 3DS Max .map plugin. I tried it some time ago, but got really frustrated and stopped.

[MoonDog]

Oh, in that case. Yes. I use the COD4 mod tools, Hammer Editor and in house development tools at work. I've got the UDK for Unreal Engine 3 that I mess with from time to time, but that is a much more artist friendly set of tools than anything else. Plus, it takes me a long time to get a complex mesh setup with pretty UV's. Most of my time is spent getting rid of bad stretching.

 

GTKRadiant is something I go back to from time to time at home, but its hard to enjoy because it just isn't as well setup as Hammer or the COD tools when it comes to working fast and efficiently. It needs quite a few things to get to that point. None of those being a light preview. I don't even care about that anymore.

 

• Alt drag from CoDRadiant
• A keyboard shortcut for rotate on axis. Plus the keyboard shortcuts for locking on X, Y, and Z respectively. It takes a bit of extra time to go up to a toolbar to click these things
• Rotation and translation Gizmos in all new versions, not just 1.5.0
• Hide unselected, instead of trying to work in Regions
• Z axis cubic clip
• Measuring tape clip line. (Place points similar to the clipping tool. Except it draws a line and tells you that distance in radiant units.)
• Some sort of support for model preview in the file dialogue. (CoD tools does this with a special folder that contains jpegs by the same name as the models. If the support for that feature were there, than the modders themselves could do the rest.)
• More convenient control and drive scheme for the 3D window, not requiring you to move your left hand from that side of the keyboard.

[NumberWan]

I remember people, who were using Quark in the past. I've launched it once, but never tried to create anything there. I really like GtkRadiant. The only other editor I used for mapping is WorldCraft for Half-Life 1, but when I discovered JA modding, it was WC which I used for my first rooms, because it was so familiar at the time (the editor also creates *.map files).

 

@@mrwonko

BehavEd is a wonderful program, but it had bugs which made some people I know leave JA modding forever (!), which is sad. I can name some of the bugs, which might or might not occur on some machines. For instance, some modders were irritated by a minor glitch, which converted the lines in the whole script last opened - instead of wait <float> it would put everywhere wait <str>. I can't say anything more specific on this one, as I encountered the problem only several times and found that notepad is the best way to fix the glitched script faster.

 

Some commands doesn't seem to be working, while they are still present in BehavEd. This is not the problem about BE, but of JA itself, but still it takes time to understand that sometimes.

 

My unfavourite one is the 'event editor', when you use set_types <str>. A new window opens, you seek the options you need. E.g. you want to put set_solid or set_ignorepain, and then the list appears. For some reason it would then be impossible to choose, as you have only an instance to pick the one you need. Also the window itself is so broad, that you need to move it to the left to see the whole window.

 

GtkRadiants also have some bugs, which I don't like. 1.4. is notorious enough for its troubling editing system of terrain. Or texture apply on 45 degrees brushes.

[Boothand]

 

Oh, in that case. Yes. I use the COD4 mod tools, Hammer Editor and in house development tools at work. I've got the UDK for Unreal Engine 3 that I mess with from time to time, but that is a much more artist friendly set of tools than anything else. Plus, it takes me a long time to get a complex mesh setup with pretty UV's. Most of my time is spent getting rid of bad stretching.

 

Would it be possible to go back and forth between COD4 mod tools and GTKradiant without compatibility issues? I'd be interested in using it for brushwork, as I've even resorted to use 3DS Max for making what would otherwise break by using brushes, next time I re-open GTKradiant 1.6. But it's slow, and doubles the effort when also needing to make corresponding clip brushes in GTKradiant.

 

You mentioned to hide unselected though, which can be done by inverting the selection (I) and hiding that.

[MoonDog]

 

You mentioned to hide unselected though, which can be done by inverting the selection (I) and hiding that.

 

 

Thats an extra step. It also tends to chug machines when you have a large amount of objects in a map. In CodRadiant you just hit alt + H and see results immediately.

[NumberWan]

Returning to Editors versions, I wonder if there is an alternative in 1.5. to what I have in 1.4:

 

- When in XYZ view, I can select entities like NPCs, ref_tags, target_speaker through lots of brushes which are located above them. Is it possible in 1.5.?

- If applying a texture to a brush, I could use a click on other brush to select the necessary texture, and it would be chosen in the texture list. It works like Photoshop Eyedropper, whilst in 1.5. I didn't find such an option.

 

I work in 1.4. and 1.5. at the same time. Building seems easier and faster in older version, but adding details, completing the design and compilation is perhaps what I like in later Radiants.