Teancum

Will do.

I just don't see why you'd go backwards in tech.

 

It's like converting a fuel injected engine into a carburated one, totally backwards, no pros, only cons.

The Build engine is actually a small step forwards. Totally stock it had support for sloped floors and multiplayer, as well as a few things I can't recall (been a long time). Technically speaking it's always been superior. It really lines up more with the Outlaws version of the Jedi engine. So it was more like taking a stock carburetor and putting a Holley carb in its place. It's not going to be a massive improvement, but it helps a totally stock vehicle have a bit more pep.

 

All that being said it still feels very Duke. I guess I should try it out before I judge further, but it doesn't seem to have that Dark Forces charisma.

I'll probably give it a spin. I love retro stuff and had a fun enough time with Duke3D. I agree with @@Cerez that I'm not looking for a crossover, but some basic FPS, Dark Forces-styled action would be fun.

That would be amazing. I have some Android HDTV computers that I could then convert over to Linux. I know someone ported it to Android and iOS, but I must admit I'd love to see OpenJK on Android someday. Android set-top TV boxes are dirt cheap and nice and compact for travel. In fact, if anyone on the OpenJK team is interested in an Android port I have a spare HDMI Smart computer I could just send to them.

 

On one last Xbox note, I contacted Chris McEvoy of Vicarious Visions shortly after the source release (knew him from elsewhere) about the GOB format. He said he had already talked with then-VV boss Guha Bala about the accidental leak and the GOB format. What he replied with was that the format was no longer used, but they couldn't officially support it with a tool of any kind. He did say that pretty much all the code was there (read, write, create, etc) for a tool aside from a wrapper, and that it wouldn't be hard for the community to make a tool. That might be a better solution for me to pursue. I would effectively just need to make a wrapper to invoke the different processes. I might be able to update content going that route and won't need the XDK, avoiding any "Imperial entanglements". Between that and BSPthing (whith splits the BSPs into the Xbox's formats) there is some potential at new content on Xbox. But admittedly if there are better avenues (like Android) I don't see a reason to stick with Xbox.  

As a long time Massassian (~1998 or so) I can say the site hasn't been about modding for probably 6 or 7 years. JKHub.net still has a few active modders, but not many. It's sad. Those two games are such gold. Good to hear that if things went south things could continue here.

Fair enough. It was an incredible headache anyway. As far as running executables though -- you can run unsigned versions on software-modded original Xbox, and on hardware modded 360s. It's been a hobby of mine to mess with that stuff. I will say that though the original Xbox can run linux, OpenJK doesn't run on it, so for that part of it the idea is out. As far as Bink, etc all that would have been replaced with open versions (MPEG replacing bink, with the users having to find their own way to get the movies). The main reason for my interest was the simplicity and inexpensive family LAN parties we have with four old Xboxes. It's way cheaper (and space saving) to fill a basement with 16 people, four Xboxes & TVs, and one network switch than 16 computers all all the related gear.

 

But in the end if Microsoft has recalled hardware then realistically the software would be part of that package. Message received.

I owned JO on GameCube too when I was first married. It's still a solid experience, and given that both the GameCube and Xbox were pretty powerful for their day it runs buttery smooth. What you'll probably notice more than anything are the way it feels, being controller-based. Still great fun, but it can be jarring for people who play mainly on PC.

 

Directly on topic, I have Xbox compiling for both SP and MP now. So far I haven't been able to switch over to PK3s. Visual Studio 2003 doesn't like the outright switch, so I'm probably going to go loose files. The entire GOB format (which replaces PK3) API is included, but I'm not sure I'll get the chance to build out make-you-own-gob system, so I'll probably just start with the ability to play with all the files extracted. Xbox GLMs crash the PC version, so odds are that the inverse is true, which is super disappointing. I found the code for the tool that splits up BSPs into the Xbox MLE entity format, and after compiling it seems to work, for the most part. It errors out after the final MLE. No idea whether it would actually work on PC maps, of course, but I'm guessing they wouldn't build a tool to separate the BSP into manageable chunks otherwise -- they'd just alter the BSP structure itself.

 

Of course, none of this matters if I can't get files to run outside the GOB.

Can I just say that the Force Arena team has some brilliant artists? They did a great job bringing toon characters into the real(ish) world.

I'll probably just stick with ModDB. I get why it makes staff uneasy, so I'll keep it out of their hair.

In the original source release included were the code chunks for original Xbox. Most people know this. What non-coders might not know is that the single player code was actually configured for Xenon, which was a developer codename for the Xbox 360. I don't have access to the Xbox 360 SDK, so who knows whether it actually compiled, but the .vcproj (Visual C++ Project) files reference Xenon often. I was trying to figure out why I couldn't get the single player code to load in Visual Studio and found it by looking into the .vcproj with Notepad++.

 

Relevant? Probably not, but I thought it might be neat for some people to know. I mean who knows why it happened really. The dreamers might think it was planned for 360 but cancelled, but my guess is that this was just an internal experiment. Maybe a member of the dev team was trying to get familiar with 360 development and decided to work with an existing codebase. Who knows.

Like I said, if you're wanting to go that route I salute you. It's all greek to me. I mod these old games for their simplicity. But you may very well as a team shave a lot of years off this engine and its assets.

I opened the thread hoping it would be this guy, was slightly disappointed. (Kudos to whoever gets the reference)

 

Good to see that, Jeff. I realize not everyone agrees with our views. I'm cool with that, but it's really nice to see someone like me in that sense.

In case anyone was wondering, here are some specifics I want to ultimately do (this list is also in the first post):

• Assets update: More hilts and colors, including some unstable colors (no RGB for simplicity's sake)
• Assets update: Kitbashed species (updates to originals as well as new)
• Assets update: More MP characters
• Assets update: Select any MP character for SP (on-screen toggle between species and MP characters. I have a version of this on PC already built)
• Assets update: Official JA Bonus Pack maps
• Code update: JO MP gametypes
• Code/Assets update: Blaster Pistol/sidearm customization a la lightsaber hilts. All blasters in one weapon slot, with the player able to select their chosen pistol model and possibly bolt color and secondary fire mode
• WISHLIST: In-game SP mod loader. High priority after the above would get done
• WISHLIST: KotF 2.1-styled "Training" module. Available in both the SP and MP executables, but it's more of a vs NPC instead of bots. Gives more of a campaign feel
• WISHLIST: Dedicated server browser. Totally doable. Totally a huge project and, in the end, might not be worth the effort
• WISHLIST: MP character grouping. If you select Luke, for example, a sub-menu with all the different Luke variants appears. Saves from having a never ending list of characters, and organizes variants into one place. Another example might be clicking on a clone trooper, which then puts an icon list of all available clone trooper variants below it. Again, very doable. Very time consuming.
• WISHLIST: Additional weapons. I'd love to have the Dark Forces mod weapons in as either added to the campaign or as easter egg weapons. A more DF saga-esque array of weapons would be too cool. The Mortar Gun is already done, and it might motivate me to complete the Fusion Cutter and Assault Cannon. And in my mind the Rail Detonator/Seeking Rail Detonator from JK/MotS is a must (and, off-topic, but it's cooler than JO/JA's rocket launcher)

Is it easy to mod the XBOX? I used to play JA on it all the time back in the day.

There are software-based exploits out there. With a memory card, usb adapter and a copy of Splinter Cell the process takes about 30 minutes. Replacing the hard drive with a bigger one can also be done, but that's a bit more involved. I keep an old PC in my garage whose only job is to prep bigger Xbox hard drives from old used PC drives. I used to use it quite a bit. Now its maybe once a year.

 

But what about the drag/drop of PK3 files? Doesn't not having that easy ability along with hardware now a days so easily being able to run JA not kill the console community?

FTP is nearly as quick. Turn on the console, FTP into it, drag and drop to transfer. PK3 support is the biggest focus I have. But again, so much of my personal interest level comes in at couch gaming. One TV/monitor, up to four friends on that TV, super easy system linking (way easier than a LAN party). PC is great, don't get me wrong, but I want to talk to people while I play. So that being said I'm going to do it in the same room, or I'll do it online via a modern console that has that functionality built in.

 

Also, some MASSIVE changes are about to be made to the PC game with the render engine which would probably make the console version obsolete.

Again this is where I feel I don't fit in with this community. Where most people see new visual updates I see the requirement to go back and update a bunch of old assets to then take advantage of those enhancements. It becomes this endless feature creep cycle where, yes, things get more visually appealing, but on the other hand no other type of progress is made. Eventually the pipeline becomes so difficult for anyone but the super seasoned modders that there aren't enough people to support it.

 

That's why I love these 90's and 2000's games. They're visually appealing enough to draw players into the gameplay without being so incredibly complicated that you can't just sit down and make content for them. In my mind I look at the way JO/JA look as a sort of art style rather than some aged engine. I see nothing wrong at all with 2003 visuals, and frankly prefer them.

 

Now all that said I say if people want to spend their time doing that then that's part of the joy of modding. I don't understand it, but then again I realize a lot of people might not understand my own motivations. Hopefully I don't come off as a huge jerk. People should feel free to mod in the way that makes them feel accomplished and happy.

Why take the time to do this?

 

I owned the console version of this console, it's terrible to the point in which I'm sure no one is playing it.

Because everyone I play with plays exclusively on a console. I have a modded original Xbox, there are two that are system linked at my parent's house, and I've built one for each of my siblings' kids. Holiday get togethers often lead to 16 player mulitplayer matches in Halo, Battlefront, etc. And frankly any day of the week I'll take a gamepad over mouse and keyboard, which is the same reason I did my Battlefront II mod for the Xbox. Couch/splitscreen multiplayer is in our DNA.

 

In regards to nobody playing, the gameplay is no different. The only major change is in the UI, which admittedly is pretty lazy. Everything else is still great fun to play if you're a console gamer. Also my Xbox Battlefront II mod has over 20,000 views collectively on TheIsoZone -- admittedly one drawback is that nobody likes to outright host console mods aside from ModDB (which I've never bothered to submit to). It's no PC popularity, but that's enough to tell me there are plenty of folks like me that like to run on consoles. Plus its only five points below PC in Metacritic score. In the end the PC's moddability is the reason it's more popular. 

 

To add to that I enjoy doing it for the challenge. I guess it's hard to understand, but on the inverse I often don't understand putting so much time into HD-ifying such an old game over getting content moving at a mid-2000's quality, but so many people here spend tons of time doing it. I suppose my inverted views are why I don't feel like I fit in here. 

I want to ensure that I'm being safe and clear and not making waves within the community. I am in the process of building personal builds for the original Xbox. I have both SP and MP executables building in VS2003, which I've had on hand since my early days at university. My first task is to rip out all commercial library code, such as Goblib (which is Vicarious Vision's property), as well as MP3, etc and replace it with free libraries as OpenJK has done. I plan on uploading the source to GitHub after I've pulled all I can, and to note to people that people will need a legal XDK to compile it. As it is I have to go somewhere to compile it as I personally don't own a copy of the XDK. Even though it's ancient news to Microsoft, it's a personal responsibility to ensure that you actually own the XDK (thus these will be source-only releases on Git).

 

The master rules thread has the following to say:

You are not allowed to use the original release code that was linked by Kotaku and others. This code contains Rad Game Tools code, as well as Feelit, Xbox Development Kit code and Carmack's Reverse. Using that code requires redistribution of your source code, which contains illegally relicensed code. I hear Microsoft has great lawyers.

 

So, all that being said, what's the policy on posting work in progress videos and forum posts? I don't want to be out of bounds here, but the plan is some support for mods:

• Deflate assets.gob to loose files (already done with QuickBMS, so it's done outside of the game)
• Ability to run loose files and PK3s
• Cosmetic mod support (characters, sabers, etc)
• MP map support

TL;DR -- I'd like to be able to post forum updates on Xbox executables/mods. No actual executables would be provided, and individuals will have to compile the updated source code themselves -- all commercial libraries will be removed before the first GitHub commit. PK3 mod links will be provided as long as the contributing community members deem it okay to port their work (which consists of converting textures to DDS and little else).

 

Thoughts? I'm guessing that even given what I'm doing it's still frowned upon.

 

***EDIT***

 

In case anyone was wondering, here are some specifics I want to ultimately do:

• Assets update: More hilts and colors, including some unstable colors (no RGB for simplicity's sake)
• Assets update: Kitbashed species (updates to originals as well as new)
• Assets update: More MP characters
• Assets update: Select any MP character for SP (on-screen toggle between species and MP characters. Have a version of this on PC already built)
• Assets update: Official JA Bonus Pack maps
• Code/Assets update: Blaster Pistol/sidearm customization a la lightsaber hilts. All blasters on one key, with the player able to select their chosen pistol model and possibly bolt color and secondary fire mode
• WISHLIST: In-game SP mod loader. High priority after the above would get done
• WISHLIST: KotF 2.1-styled "Training" module. Available in both the SP and MP executables, but it's more of a vs NPC instead of bots. Gives more of a campaign feel
• WISHLIST: Dedicated server browser. Totally doable. Totally a huge project and, in the end, might not be worth the effort
• WISHLIST: MP character grouping. If you select Luke, for example, a sub-menu with all the different Luke variants appears. Saves from having a never ending list of characters, and organizes them into one place. Another example might be clicking on a clone trooper, which then puts an icon list of all available clone troopers below it. Again, very doable. Very time consuming.

In regards to the menus, if you can give me very specific examples -- in other words, we want this exact page of the menu to look exactly like the original but with [x] -- I could probably give you a hand on some of it. I can't promise anything, but you don't have any takers yet and the .menu system isn't overly difficult to help out with.

 

****EDIT****

So I've been talking to @linken233 via PM. I now get what the team is getting at. I also think after taking some time to dig through the .menu files for both the base game and KotF I can do what you're looking for. My question now is how you want to handle single player. It could follow the same premise as multiplayer, or it could alter the SP campaign in some way.

.map export in Blender won't give you very good results. MD3 has limited dimensions so it won't fit a whole map, but you could maybe try .obj or .ase.

But you can't import anything else as map geometry in Radiant, can you? If you can then I've been doing things the hard way for a long time.

Turn the MD3 to a .MAP in Blender. From there you can open it in Radiant and see what you have. I would immediately compile the map and test it in JA to see what sort of frame rate you have before texturing.

That actually makes it crystal clear. That's a valid reason I can get behind.

I would agree that this can get confusing. Both types of individuals -- kitbashers and scratch builders -- want their stuff to be very visible. I like @@AshuraDX 's suggestion, and we do something similar at MarvelMods. The first post is a sort of "hub post" that, at minimum, has links to the individual other posts where downloads are. More organized members have icons, etc to make things easier. That way if something is deemed either not ready for the downloads section or ineligible there's not a log of digging to do. You just say "Check Jeff's WIP thread" and they go to the first post. Done.

 

http://marvelmods.com/forum/index.php/topic,8049.0.html

 

 

*EDIT*

Maybe I'm just reading things wrong, but it feels like there's a disdain among some for kitbashers. Why is that such a bad thing? (not speaking of this thread specifically) I have tons of respect for those with the patience and talent to scratch build, but at the same time if I can build an application by not having to write all my code from scratch that's what I'd do. To me models are no different. I don't have the time to scratch model, learn to create believable textures, etc. But I can put a Gran's head on the human male body and have myself a species.

Ah. Here I was thinking you were talking .exe/game engine code

It's still not clear what sort of "coding" needs there are. If specific needs can be laid out the community can help much easier.

Heard back from the creator of 3D Object Converter. Though it turns out we know each other on Zenhax.com, he wasn't interested in this format. Still, it was a longshot. Luckily GTKRadiant allows you to import images to work from like modeling programs do, so I can always create a top-down screenshot to work from.

Not really a tutorial per say, but I LOVE the ability that Visual Studio has to look up the source of a function. Right click on anything, then click "Go to definition". It helps immensely to find out how things work without scanning every file for hours.