Star Wars Episode VIII Discussion

[NumberWan]

The Force Awakens --> The Last Jedi --> ??? [Return of the Jedi Order?]

[Clearly titled from the perspective of the Force/Jedi, but it doesn't seem to abide by the same relationship/formula. Who/What are we fighting here, exactly? Luke's decision to end the Jedi tradition? The Jedi are fighting against being forgotten? The Force is fighting to exist? >.<']

Not sure. But I think of J.J.Abrams, that he, when he was a child – well, his generation thought, that being a Jedi is some sort of magic, available to everyone. And that this very idea was very important for the fans, thus it's present in TFA – that the Force applies to everyone in one way or another. My opinion is that this notion isn't that important: Star Wars has a lot of characters not related to the Force, yet affected by it.

 

So they wanted to start from this idea, given the fact, that, well, this is perhaps the first film in entire Star Wars Saga where we see no Jedi at all for the first 100+ minutes? For comparison – we see Obi Wan Kenobi in the first act of ANH, and Luke is almost a Jedi in Episode V (while Yoda appears in Act II I guess). The same is with Episode VI, with Luke being a Jedi in the film, almost.

 

Episodes I-III need no special comment in this regard: the Jedi are there indeed.

 

TFA shows a member of the Church of the Force instead, only mentioning the Jedi. Later we see Kylo Ren and Rey, both of which are not Jedi in current state. Maz Kanata says herself she isn't a Jedi, but understands the Force – this the leitmotif of the current trilogy it seems.

[Cerez]

@@NumberWan, so why The Last Jedi? Shouldn't it be The First Jedi, then? Or is this story about completely extinguishing the Jedi, and told from Kylo Ren's point of view (the Knights of Ren) -- in which case The Force Awakens refers to Kylo's connection to the Force?

 

(Either way it doesn't sound very convincing to me as a plot...)

[NumberWan]

@@Cerez

Not sure here either. Perhaps the Jedi IS there, we just don't see him in TFA until very last moment.

 

My opinion is that Episode VII will get the new meaning/understanding when Episode VIII gets out. I mean, that the story is deliberately incomplete, as I stated above – we know Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker. But with new story we get, that it was quite a different kind of betrayal and murder.

[Cerez]

The problem is the first movie didn't give anything us to work with at all, really. The plot of the first movie was blowing up the new Death Star and finding the last Jedi alive. I really don't see the same drive here that the original trilogy had. The only way I see them making this a story you will want to follow is by pretty much reiterating parts of ESB to give Rey an incentive to fight. Why should she involve herself in galactic matters -- even after Han's death. Her life has been running and scavenging -- she's a rogue.

 

In contrast, Luke had lost his family to the Empire, practically before his eyes, and had landed a score against a merciless villain who would pursue him to the ends of the galaxy. If that's the drive with Rey as well (Kylo's revenge as the link), then we just have ESB all over.

 

(Honestly, I think we've already given this film's plot more thought than the creators have...)

[minilogoguy18]

This new trilogy isn't going to follow the same theme as the 6 before it, the 6 films before it were all about the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. The other characters are just there to give more depth to the story.

 

The only characters that are in all 6 of the original films are Anakin, Obi-Wan and the droids.

 

The problem with this new trilogy I foresee is that it's going to be a different person writing each one which may make for some odd points that don't quite match up. TFA wasn't as terrible as you suggest @@Cerez but it definitely isn't better than the originals, it's mostly a nolstalgia trip for people like me who remember the original originals. Rogue one was good, the story didn't contradict anything and I like how they didn't tamper with things like they did in TFA. I mean TFA changed lightsaber sounds FFS.

 

I'm surprised you like the CW series so much when literally none of it matches up with the movies. The 2d animated version made by Genndy Tartakovsky did a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better job of filling the gap between episode 2 and 3.

[Cerez]

I mean let's look at character motivations from TFA:

 

Rey:

Her newly found mentor and father figure, who told her about the Jedi was killed, and she fought the killer hand to hand, scarring him, saving her friend, and narrowly escaping. Does she have any reason to face the villain again? Not really. In her position, and with her experience, I would take the ship, and get as far away from the enemy as possible. Her only motivation, as far as I can see, is her curiosity for her newly discovered powers, and the Jedi -- that led her to Luke.

 

Finn:

Revenge against Kylo Ren for what he did to him? Would Finn even consider versing Kylo again? o.O I guess Finn does have a good reason to seek Jedi training if he plans to face Kylo again. Apart from that, he cares for what happens to Rey as a friend, sort of.

 

Poe:

To fight for freedom? Does he have any meaningful motivations?

 

Kylo:

To take revenge on Rey and to eliminate the Jedi and prove himself worthy. He will very likely become obsessed with Rey's whereabouts, and try to track her down to finish the job and settle the score.

[Cerez]

I'm surprised you like the CW series so much when literally none of it matches up with the movies. The 2d animated version made by Genndy Tartakovsky did a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better job of filling the gap between episode 2 and 3.

I didn't actually like the prequel films, and I don't much care for them. That might help explain it. I like TCW as a standalone, and I consider it to be the definitive Clone Wars story that compliments Old Ben's tales in the original trilogy about Luke's father, Anakin, the brave Jedi knight, and his fall from the Jedi Order.

[LucyTheAlien]

I mean let's look at character motivations from TFA:

 

Rey:

Her newly found mentor and father figure, who told her about the Jedi was killed, and she fought the killer hand to hand, scarring him, saving her friend, and narrowly escaping. Does she have any reason to face the villain again? Not really. In her position, and with her experience, I would take the ship, and get as far away from the enemy as possible. Her only motivation, as far as I can see, is her curiosity for her newly discovered powers, and the Jedi -- that led her to Luke.

 

Finn:

Revenge against Kylo Ren for what he did to him? Would Finn even consider versing Kylo again? o.O I guess Finn does have a good reason to seek Jedi training if he plans to face Kylo again. Apart from that, he cares for what happens to Rey as a friend, sort of.

 

Poe:

To fight for freedom? Does he have any meaningful motivations?

 

Kylo:

To take revenge on Rey and to eliminate the Jedi and prove himself worthy. He will very likely become obsessed with Rey's whereabouts, and try to track her down to finish the job and settle the score.

 

What about Rey's parents? Surely that's a motivation in some respect. 

[Barricade24]

We're nitpicking titles now?

 

Sheesh.

 

Most of the Star Wars movies have had straight forward titles. Revenge of the Sith, Attack of the Clones, and The Empire Strikes Back. This is no different.

[therfiles]

I mean let's look at character motivations from TFA:

 

Rey:

Her newly found mentor and father figure, who told her about the Jedi was killed, and she fought the killer hand to hand, scarring him, saving her friend, and narrowly escaping. Does she have any reason to face the villain again? Not really. In her position, and with her experience, I would take the ship, and get as far away from the enemy as possible. Her only motivation, as far as I can see, is her curiosity for her newly discovered powers, and the Jedi -- that led her to Luke.

 

Finn:

Revenge against Kylo Ren for what he did to him? Would Finn even consider versing Kylo again? o.O I guess Finn does have a good reason to seek Jedi training if he plans to face Kylo again. Apart from that, he cares for what happens to Rey as a friend, sort of.

 

Poe:

To fight for freedom? Does he have any meaningful motivations?

 

Kylo:

To take revenge on Rey and to eliminate the Jedi and prove himself worthy. He will very likely become obsessed with Rey's whereabouts, and try to track her down to finish the job and settle the score.

 

I think these are a bit less paper-thin than you make them out to be.

 

Rey: Discover who she is. Discover her backstory (why was she abandoned). Discover her abilities. Discover who her parents are. Discover who Luke Skywalker is. Defeat Kylo Ren and the First Order. Discover if she even wants to be a part of the bigger picture battle between good or evil, or would it be easier to just go home? Why did the saber call to her? Where did her powers come from?

 

Finn: Revenge against Kylo for besting him. Revenge against the First Order for their evilness and brainwashing. Discover what it means to be a hero. In 7, he ran from the fight and was brought into it when his friend was in trouble. Does he have the courage to fight for a larger cause? Will he pursue a relationship with Rey? How will he deal with his injuries?

 

Ren: What does his training look like? How does he deal with the inner turmoil within himself (the good and the evil)? Does he feel remorse over his choice to kill his father? How does he deal with the shame of being beaten by a lowly scavenger? What does his relationship with Snoke look like? How will he "strike back" against the Resistance? Will he try and find Luke? What is his relationship with Luke and how exactly did he turn to the dark side? What about his Knights of Ren? How did he find them and lead them? What's next for the First Order? Why is killing Luke so important?

 

Poe: I really don't care for this character. He likes to fly. Uh...

 

Episode 7 was all about people running away from their roles. Finn abandoned the First Order. Han runs away from the Resistance to escape his failure with his son. Rey runs away from her powers. Luke runs from the galaxy. Ren runs from his parents and the Jedi Order. They all confront their choices in the film. So 8 is about what they do next. So I'm excited.

[NumberWan]

As I said earlier – we are most likely missing something here.

For instance, there was an article, that one of the shots with Rey in Rebel helmet might mean more than just a nod to classic Rebellion and her fondness of the Galactic Civil War stories.

 

 

Can you see it? If no, there is a hint below (it might lead to spoilers)

 

Look at the aurebesh word. I tried to read it, but it includes one additional sign from aurebesh, which actually means AE. The whole word then reads as R-AE-H.

There is been a speculation, that Rey isn't the girl's real name, but rather a nickname chosen for her by others or even herself, as the helmet might have been with her from her early years. It wasn't much of a news, except that nobody took into account the name being actually there.

 

[z3filus]

Good point @NumberWan, but it just sounds too complicated. I'd imagine reading about it, but I don't see an entire scene explaining the origins of Rey on such a deep level. You're also forgetting the fact, that there are both Imperial and Rebel wreckage/ debris on Jakku, and that Rey was living as a scavenger, so that helmet was most likely just something she became fond of. It could have been a stormtrooper helmet. This is why I think it's nothing more than a hidden message indicating her name before the premiere of TFA.



About the newly announced title of Episode VIII;  "The Last Jedi" has clearly started a lot of fan theories about the plot of the film. As with all the previous episodes, the title is not random, but a clear hint of what the movie will be about, A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, Return Of The Jedi, The Phantom Menace etc. so the upcoming episode will be about The Last Jedi, and unlike many others, I don't think that the title is about Luke & Rey, or even Finn.  No,  I think the title is about Snoke.  There's a lot of mystery surrounding The Supreme Leader, and I'd imagine this episode to be about The First Order. After the destruction of the Starkillerbase, I'd imagine them being so furious, that Hux would send bountyhunters after the Rebels, similar to what Darth Vader did in ESB. This would be an opportunity to give Captain Phasma more screen time, as she stops at nothing to capture Finn and Poe. While the heroes are on the run, Luke has the perfect and maybe the only chance to sit down and shed some more light on The Supreme Leader Snoke = he used to be a padawan at the Jedi Temple, a survivor of the destruction of the temple. The Last Jedi. Twisted with hate towards the Skywalkers. It would be a great way to tie this trilogy with the other 6 movies.


 

[minilogoguy18]

As far as Rey and who she is, her parents are in ep7 and this is confirmed info, some people have guessed it but no one at disney is saying who's right but they are there and you'll find out who when 8 comes out.

[Cerez]

I think these are a bit less paper-thin than you make them out to be.

Perhaps...

 

Rey: Discover who she is. Discover her backstory (why was she abandoned). Discover her abilities. Discover who her parents are. Discover who Luke Skywalker is. Defeat Kylo Ren and the First Order. Discover if she even wants to be a part of the bigger picture battle between good or evil, or would it be easier to just go home? Why did the saber call to her? Where did her powers come from?

In other words, a character without any backbone, with no agenda, without a known past, and without any invested character development. A complete mystery even to herself. A clueless Chosen One with the Force.

 

Finn: Revenge against Kylo for besting him. Revenge against the First Order for their evilness and brainwashing. Discover what it means to be a hero. In 7, he ran from the fight and was brought into it when his friend was in trouble. Does he have the courage to fight for a larger cause? Will he pursue a relationship with Rey? How will he deal with his injuries?

This is really shallow character development, IMHO, but I can see what you're getting at.

 

Ren: What does his training look like? How does he deal with the inner turmoil within himself (the good and the evil)? Does he feel remorse over his choice to kill his father? How does he deal with the shame of being beaten by a lowly scavenger? What does his relationship with Snoke look like? How will he "strike back" against the Resistance? Will he try and find Luke? What is his relationship with Luke and how exactly did he turn to the dark side? What about his Knights of Ren? How did he find them and lead them? What's next for the First Order? Why is killing Luke so important?

These are more questions about unexplained aspects of the film than they are actual character motivations. Most of these are trivial questions that concern the audience, not the character and story. Once again, this kind of character development is typical of an inexperienced, low budget TV series, not a quality film series. But thanks for explaining your perspective -- it does help me understand better what people find interesting about this movie.

 

Poe: I really don't care for this character. He likes to fly. Uh...

Hahaha! I would have to agree. I don't see much character development at all in Poe. He is much like the characters of Rogue One -- there only for the sake of the movie to go on.

 

Episode 7 was all about people running away from their roles. Finn abandoned the First Order. Han runs away from the Resistance to escape his failure with his son. Rey runs away from her powers. Luke runs from the galaxy. Ren runs from his parents and the Jedi Order. They all confront their choices in the film. So 8 is about what they do next. So I'm excited.

This is an interesting unifying perspective. It's really hopeful -- which is more than I would dare to indulge my spirit in for the next film -- but it does seem to ring true from a certain aspect. Still, it just goes to show that the first movie gave us very-very little in terms of the actual story (for the trilogy), and I question whether this is a good theme for a story about galaxy-fate-changing heroes.

[Cerez]

On a side note, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that they should have put Dave Filoni's creative team in charge of the new film series' story. I don't think there's a single writer out there at the moment who understand the original trilogy better than this writing team did with their extensive research and experience in the world of Star Wars.

 

Plus, Filoni is a fan of strong female leads. I get the feeling the work he would have done on Rey would have turned her into a much more interesting, and more developed person/character. They could also have consulted Katie Lucas. (That is if they hadn't ruined their relationship with George...)

 

(Disney is just throwing talent away...)

[LucyTheAlien]

On a side note, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that they should have put Dave Filoni's creative team in charge of the new film series' story. I don't think there's a single writer out there at the moment who understand the original trilogy better than this writing team did with their extensive research and experience in the world of Star Wars.

 

Plus, Filoni is a fan of strong female leads. I get the feeling the work he would have done on Rey would have turned her into a much more interesting, and more developed person/character. They could also have consulted Katie Lucas. (That is if they hadn't ruined their relationship with George...)

 

(Disney is just throwing talent away...)

 

It's not like Filoni doesn't work there- but I'd have to agree I think he would've been a great consultant at least. 

[Cerez]

I've found meaning in the new movie's title:

 

"Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be. The Force runs strong in your family -- pass on what you have learnt."

 

It comes awkward after "The Force Awakens", but in this context it actually makes sense, and the title seems to imply that this movie will be about Luke and his family/legacy indeed.

 

I think I may have figured out the family story as well... (MAJOR Spoiler Warning!)

 

 

Kylo Ren and Rey are siblings. I think Luke never had an heir. This is why Leia and Rey embraced, why Han was so fatherly towards her, and what Daisy Ridley was hinting at -- that Rey's parents are obvious in the film. Rey is a Skywalker, not from Luke's side, but from the other hope. Leia and Han's children are Ben and Rey Solo. Luke must have failed Ben, and that contributed to him going into exile/hiding and abandoning his role as a teacher. R2D2 woke up because Rey arrived (with Luke's lightsaber) (Luke programmed it to do that). The question remains, who the f*ck is Snoke, and where did he come from to influence Ben??

 

Also, Rey's real name is definitely not Rey (based on her father's reaction).

 

 

[LucyTheAlien]

I've found meaning in the new movie's title:

 

"Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be. The Force runs strong in your family -- pass on what you have learnt."

 

It comes awkward after "The Force Awakens", but in this context it actually makes sense, and the title seems to imply that this movie will be about Luke and his family/legacy indeed.

 

I think I may have figured out the family story as well... (Major Spoiler Warning!)

 

 

Kylo Ren and Rey are siblings. I think Luke never had an heir. This is why Leia and Rey embraced, why Han was so fatherly towards her, and what Daisy Ridley was hinting at -- that Rey's parents are obvious in the film. Rey is a Skywalker, not from Luke's side, but from the other hope. Leia and Han's children are Ben and Rey Solo. Luke must have failed Ben, and that contributed to him going into exile/hiding and abandoning his role as a teacher. R2D2 woke up because Rey arrived (Luke programmed it to do that). The question remains, who the f*ck is Snoke, and where did he come from to influence Ben??

 

Also, Rey's real name is definitely not Rey (based on her father's reaction).

 

 

 

Liking you more and more Cerez!

[Cerez]

Liking you more and more Cerez!

[LucyTheAlien]

 

Shouldn't that be imperfect? 

[Ramikad]

 

 

 

[Cerez]

Shouldn't that be imperfect? 

Case in point.

[Archangel35757]

@@Cerez -- I disagree... I still think Rey is Luke's daughter-- by Mara Jade (or whoever they name her). I believe Mara Jade and Rey were being pursued by Kylo Ren and the Knights. Mara stuck Rey on Jakku... or it could even have been Ben Solo who dropped her off (having a soft spot for his 1st cousin. Regardless... when Kylo reached out for Luke's saber in the snow and then Rey reached out for it-- it came to her (the rightful heir) because Kylo is Leia's child. If it had been Han's daughter he would have had a huge human reaction (if they thought she was dead)... but his reaction seemed appropriate for a neice whose identity he wanted to protect.

[Cerez]

 

 

If it had been Han's daughter he would have had a huge human reaction (if they thought she was dead)... but his reaction seemed appropriate for a neice whose identity he wanted to protect.

 

 

 

Who said they thought her dead? Who said they didn't hide her on purpose? Who said they didn't hide them both on purpose (from their enemies), with Ben being the older sibling who got to train under Luke.

 

Watch the movie carefully. He did have a reaction. You can see the exact moment he realises she is his daughter. But this is Han we're talking about -- of course he's not going to express his true feelings just like that, bluntly! The fact that he feels guilty for failing his children as a father makes it all the more difficult. Instead he "adopts" her into his crew, taking her under his protective wing. He knows her because he knows Leia.

 

 

[Archangel35757]

It's all speculation... not sure why you treat it as spoilers.