most skilled gametypes I've ever encountered in JKA

[Hugo]

Just a piece of factual information here. The ups guys are banned from the ctfpug servers. Unanimously by a community that consists out of people that are for the most part adults and which has grown over the years through quake and jk2 and whose heart belongs to quake (strafing) and jedi knight. Just saying, it takes quite some effort to get yourself banned there.

 

/me grabs popcorn

[Ping]

Considering the quality of their posts, what you say @@Hugo does not surprise me whatsoever.

[eezstreet]

fwiw, saying "X gametype is better because it requires more skill" is fairly asinine considering you can like gametypes for different reasons, and skill required isn't exactly the only reason why someone might consider a gametype to be the best.

Personally mine is Duel but it's whatever to me.

[Kane]

Just a piece of factual information here. The ups guys are banned from the ctfpug servers. Unanimously by a community that consists out of people that are for the most part adults and which has grown over the years through quake and jk2 and whose heart belongs to quake (strafing) and jedi knight. Just saying, it takes quite some effort to get yourself banned there.

 

/me grabs popcorn

 

me and source were banned by Sil because ent had just  won a match vs some raged kid, forget who, and the ctfers were raging @ enty, and me and source came to his defense and called them out then were quickly banned before we could win a 2nd match vs a team of their choice. yeah no offense but the ctf communtiy is trash, ctf/mb2 is not competitive, never will be lol. if your heart belongs to quake, you guys could try learning guns/strafing at least, you dont even have to learn forcing or sabering. when the ctf communtiy was doing speedcaps , they had like 20 maps out, all were easily beaten by me and source casually, a few ctfers came to the guns server and got spanked badly , they never showed up for forcing or strafing or sabering.  anyways we're not banned anymore, i went there anonymously and won a few matches then left because it was a easy and boring gametype. oh, and for MB2... lol... i seriously hope you're trolling now, you may as well say siege takes skill

 

btw I don't really care if a NF chat server doesnt know what fullforce is, FF was always the most populated despite not being advertised, and people got much better as they played there, every 12 year old knows what CoD is,  not many know what quake is, doesnt make call  of duty more skilled than quake. i know you guys are trying to troll but seriously, this is making you look pathetic.

 

edit: if your hearts belonged to strafing you guys would be strafing and getting times on /dfTop10  on either the SP maps or racearena courses. Q3/JK2/JK3 all  have highscores for people who are serious about strafing. i only know of 2 ctfers who are good at quake

[Kane]

fwiw, saying "X gametype is better because it requires more skill" is fairly asinine considering you can like gametypes for different reasons, and skill required isn't exactly the only reason why someone might consider a gametype to be the best.

Personally mine is Duel but it's whatever to me.

 

duel is a fun game-type, and i understand why some people have it as their favorites. my list was just made ranking the most skilled gametypes, perhaps i should have renamed the topic to that lol. i consider duel to be base sabers, ahead of tffa base sabers

[Barricade24]

I've cleaned up this thread a bit if I see any more signs of this thread getting out of hand, I'm locking this down.

[source]

The demo that I watched was random JA+ playing, I doubt that you can call that "competitive". or even skillful.

 

I already regret even trying to argue with someone like you, but I'm out.

 

High-level play from any game viewed by someone with no experience with it will be perceived as "random" because the person doesn't understand what's going on.

 

You're obviously trolling at this point. With you gone, maybe we can get some actual discussion going?

[therfiles]

This post perfectly illustrates how far from reality you can get when you stick within your own small community and your own experiences and preferances (in jka, but also jk2). I think this would be a nice moment for anyone with a strong opinion regarding jedi knight to review if what they believe to be true, is actually all there is. Because instead of bashing this quite obviously uninformed topic poster, I'd say a lot of major names in basejka, ctfpug, mod communities but also biased coders have no idea what they are talking about, purely because they stick to what they are familiar with. The ups and full force duel guys are one of those communities. But also the fucking close minded tdm basejka esl guys, the ctfpug guys that can't saber for shit, the casual jka siege gamers that think ctfpug isn't worth the try, the people that never played jk2, the people that don't know quake, the people in places like JAWA, schoolofwar, thejediacademy.net, <insert any ja+ clan> that are "teaching' methods" or preaching jedi philosophy but also train others.. and so on.

 

People are going to be people, but seriously guys. Do your research, analyse and experience. Don't take for granted what others tell you, what you think makes sense, or what a community tells you is true. Then you get this kind of stuff. We should properly educate people, but over the years I learned that most gamers in jedi battles (yes being sarcastic) are just kids or morrons. Only a hand full of people is worth the attention, and even then ... people will be people (myself included).

 

edit: the worst people are those that actually believe that they are being honest and correct and open minded by the way. You'll find them a lot in saber communities. I can sort of respect the "I don't know it, so it sucks" -attitude a lot more than people that are wrong, but act as if they did their research, while they are factually wrong, yet continue to drag people into their sphere of influence.

 

/out

 

I'm just gonna quote this because it so excellently describes the situation, and I feel like no one has really read it (if you did, you'd hopefully understand the disparity of opinions here).

[Ping]

But my clan is the bestest at all gamemodes, so what I say is the holy truth and everyone who disagrees does so out of ignorance. This doesn't mean we can't have a discussion of course - it just means that 'discussion' in this case means we can only give further reasons to support my own view because I am in an absolute position of authority due to me and my clan being God's Gift to JKA.

[source]

I'm just gonna quote this because it so excellently describes the situation, and I feel like no one has really read it (if you did, you'd hopefully understand the disparity of opinions here).

 

I'm afraid Hugo is a bit uninformed. The ups community is comprised of players from all over JKA and we've traditionally had players who are Renaissance men, so to speak. That is, they have a lot of experience with many of the gamemodes and communities on the game. We're not some insular group that only accepts JA+ forcers. I know for a fact Kane has put quite a bit of time into most of these gamemodes and has played them at a fairly high level.

 

Some people weren't able to read Kane's opinion of their favorite gametype without taking offense, however, and I think that's the issue here.

 

 

But my clan is the bestest at all gamemodes, so what I say is the holy truth and everyone who disagrees does so out of ignorance. This doesn't mean we can't have a discussion of course - it just means that 'discussion' in this case means we can only give further reasons to support my own view because I am in an absolute position of authority due to me and my clan being God's Gift to JKA.

 

 

Go away.

 

Slightly back on topic: What ever happened to IGL?

[therfiles]

Im sure he does, but this whole thread has been rather antagonistic, as you can tell. I'd read the bit where @@Hugo explains why people could have different opinions, looking past his minor misinformation.

[dark soul]

Uhm, all I can say is that JK2 ff was and still is my fav gametype, dunno the other gametypes' skill tho so won't judge

[Circa]

Mmk. Enough with the trolling. This is ridiculous.

[Hugo]

I'm afraid Hugo is a bit uninformed. The ups community is comprised of players from all over JKA and we've traditionally had players who are Renaissance men, so to speak. That is, they have a lot of experience with many of the gamemodes and communities on the game. We're not some insular group that only accepts JA+ forcers. I know for a fact Kane has put quite a bit of time into most of these gamemodes and has played them at a fairly high level.

How does what you said, proof that I would be uninformed? I said two things: 1. UPS are banned from the ctfpug servers. 2. UPS are just like any other community in jka. You can try to battle the current and past (year or two?) experience that UPS gained and I am not aware of possibly. But I was making a slightly more general point. Different arguements can be made for all those communities really, since I am not spying 24/7. Additionally however, I would like to add that I personally have had only bad experiences with ups players. In my experience - and also others really - they are agressive and short sighted. Which does not dissmiss any knowledge they got that might be valuable (they did their research on strafing mechanics via quake for example), but it shows again in the replies that are written in this topic, as @@Ping also pointed out earlier. @@source @@therfiles

 

edit: you don't have to proof anything by the way, and ups certainly aren't the only ones who are to blame here. Neither do I have the desire to proof anything, because then we'd be educating each other wouldn't we? Which is exactly what I am trying to avoid. Because it ends up in a derailed topic. I just replied because I don't want people reading this, thinking that I was stating nonsense only because you basically said: "no we are cool".

[Hugo]

You know what's funny. When I state something general, everyone just applies it to their situation and goes:

"Yes, I agree with you". But nobody is saying: "Hey.. maybe I do need to look to what else there is out there, can you point me somewhere?".

You'd think that jkhub would be a place to share knowledge and experiences instead of having arguements.

Meh, this is a difficult topic though. I've come up with some solutions over the years, but never again wanted to put time into educating a community and creating a proper game, mainly because in the end, people will be people. As pointed out by what I just said, plus it just takes a shitload of time and effort which you will not be payed for (@@Caelum can probably agree). I did do some small social and educational experiments in the past though, and what I consider to be more adult and fruitful can be done. But not in the current jka environment we have (both game technical and internet community wise).

You may now all continue the manhood measurements.

[Kane]

Made a small edit in my topic title, now no one can dispute and argue over that, maybe i should make a separate topic to talk about our personal FAVORITE gametypes or history of gametypes, idk.

 

 

anyways i disagree with your 2nd point hugo, since most clans are one community only, we're one of the few competitive clans in jka and we branch out to all (worthwhile) gametypes, we're not shy about exploring different gametypes or mods

 

 

also idk about being banned, i dont think any1 from ups is banned from ctf unless loda/fury/bk got banned for winning 3o3 vs pings team a few years back lol

[Circa]

That's kinda what this poll was for.

[Xycaleth]

Ive only skimmed the topic so someone might have asked this already. How do you define "skill"? How can this be compared between different types of game play?

[Ping]

Ive only skimmed the topic so someone might have asked this already. How do you define "skill"? How can this be compared between different types of game play?

That's of course something that you'd have to get into if you were to make a comparison based on skill, but this isn't the path taken here. Their argument is based on authority: Only someone who is an expert at x and y can compare x and y, and since they are experts on x and y, they can compare those two things. From their comparison follows that x is superior to y in some way. In this case, 'being an expert at x and y' means 'having played this and that gametype at a very high level' and 'x is superior to y' means that 'this gametype takes more skill than that'. The conclusion 'x is superior to y' could be literally anything and doesn't have to be about skill at all: It could mean 'this is richer, more difficult, more aesthetic, tricky, painful, harsh etc than that' and it would follow just as well from their appeal to authority. It's because if you accept the assumption that only experts can judge on x and y, then anything goes.

 

Now of course this kind of appeal to authority is something we should not accept because it just doesn't follow from 'x is an expert on y' that 'what x says about y is true', which is something I tried to highlight by making absurd claims that are based on exactly this kind of argumentative structure. But to reject appeals to authority would lead us to the difficulties that you were just talking about: We'd have to do the hard work of defining skill, how different types of skills compare to one another, how difficulty is determined to begin with, what role skill caps play, what factors contribute or take away from skill caps, which of these are in place for the various gametypes and so on, basically a lot of difficult and messy stuff that I'm not sure we'd ever get anywhere with. And even if, I'm not sure if it really warrants all that effort because there's not much you could draw from saying x requires more skill than y outside of maybe bragging rights, something which some people will never grow out of.

[Kane]

That's kinda what this poll was for.

 

That poll is just the g_gametypes in JKA, i've literally never seen someone play holocron lol. i mean the competitive/skill-based gametypes, which are accepted as fullforce ja+ (ffa or tffa), base sabers (ffa or tffa or duel), strafing (ffa, ctf maybe), etc. one skill-based gametype can include different g_gametypes. anyways that included mb2 which is a mod not a gametype, but didnt include other mods or competitive gametypes..

 

Ive only skimmed the topic so someone might have asked this already. How do you define "skill"? How can this be compared between different types of game play?

 

Skill is the ability to become good at something and have a talent for it, or playing a gametype at the highest level

 

Gametypes can be compared because they each have roots in something, jka guns have roots in quake3 guns (or any fps), strafing has roots in q3, and adds another element through forcejumping, the jaPro mod includes wsw, jka, q3, qw strafing, forcing is unique to the jedi knights series and was made really unique and interesting in JK2 then vastly improved and balanced in JK3 so that at the highest level of forcing everything feels fluid and fun, it might seem random or confusing if you dont know how to play a game-type, its like call of duty players who go over to a harder fps like tribes ascend and wonder why people are going so fast or how to shoot a spinfusor

 

That's of course something that you'd have to get into if you were to make a comparison based on skill, but this isn't the path taken here. Their argument is based on authority: Only someone who is an expert at x and y can compare x and y, and since they are experts on x and y, they can compare those two things. From their comparison follows that x is superior to y in some way. In this case, 'being an expert at x and y' means 'having played this and that gametype at a very high level' and 'x is superior to y' means that 'this gametype takes more skill than that'. The conclusion 'x is superior to y' could be literally anything and doesn't have to be about skill at all: It could mean 'this is richer, more difficult, more aesthetic, tricky, painful, harsh etc than that' and it would follow just as well from their appeal to authority. It's because if you accept the assumption that only experts can judge on x and y, then anything goes.

 

Now of course this kind of appeal to authority is something we should not accept because it just doesn't follow from 'x is an expert on y' that 'what x says about y is true', which is something I tried to highlight by making absurd claims that are based on exactly this kind of argumentative structure. But to reject appeals to authority would lead us to the difficulties that you were just talking about: We'd have to do the hard work of defining skill, how different types of skills compare to one another, how difficulty is determined to begin with, what role skill caps play, what factors contribute or take away from skill caps, which of these are in place for the various gametypes and so on, basically a lot of difficult and messy stuff that I'm not sure we'd ever get anywhere with. And even if, I'm not sure if it really warrants all that effort because there's not much you could draw from saying x requires more skill than y outside of maybe bragging rights, something which some people will never grow out of.

 

not gonna lie, did not read all that, but you're completely wrong... if someone is an expert in many things and is the best expert in a certain field then you defer to that person when it comes to that field/fields. in JKA, if someone has played competitively through all gametypes, they know what they're talking about more than someone who barely plays competitively or is limited to  1 gametype

[Ping]

If you have not read it, then you cannot know whether it is wrong.

[afi]

Is this joke thread still going on?

 

There is a difference between playing and playing competitively. You say that playing MBII takes less skill, yet you've never played MBII or saber only TDM/Duel competitvely.

Everyone got his opinion based on this experience in the game and thats okay. The difference though is that I don't claim to be the master at everything.

80% of my time spent in this game in the last 10 years was on base saber only servers, 15% in MBII and maybe 5% on stuff like ctf, instagib, ja+, fullforce etc.

Still, in my opinion CTF takes probably the most skill of all gamemodes. I say that, even though I was a really, really good TDM and MBII player and not even average in CTF.

I know that I'm not perfect in my opinions and I know that I can be unfair at times (especially when it comes to people who play on JA+ servers) but in the end... that's the difference. I never said that saber only is the gametype that requires the most skill even though I easily could have. I played and tried all gamemodes and gametypes in this game. When I say I didn't play xyz then I mean, that I didn't play it on a serious level.

But that you guys don't even take the time to read Ping's post before you're replying shows that you're a dead loss anyway.

[Xycaleth]

Skill is the ability to become good at something and have a talent for it, or playing a gametype at the highest level

 

Gametypes can be compared because they each have roots in something, jka guns have roots in quake3 guns (or any fps), strafing has roots in q3, and adds another element through forcejumping, the jaPro mod includes wsw, jka, q3, qw strafing, forcing is unique to the jedi knights series and was made really unique and interesting in JK2 then vastly improved and balanced in JK3 so that at the highest level of forcing everything feels fluid and fun, it might seem random or confusing if you dont know how to play a game-type, its like call of duty players who go over to a harder fps like tribes ascend and wonder why people are going so fast or how to shoot a spinfusor

That still doesn't explain how you can compare the amount of skill required for each gametype. You just stated where else these skills are seen...

 

Can you specifically say what in fullforcing requires more skill than strafing, or sabers only (as examples)? In my mind, these all require different skill sets - full forcing requires twitch reactions and quick thinking, strafing is about finely tuned hand movements (which eventually just become muscle memory anyway), sabers is about timing. They just aren't comparable :/

[Kane]

Is this joke thread still going on?

 

There is a difference between playing and playing competitively. You say that playing MBII takes less skill, yet you've never played MBII or saber only TDM/Duel competitvely.

Everyone got his opinion based on this experience in the game and thats okay. The difference though is that I don't claim to be the master at everything.

80% of my time spent in this game in the last 10 years was on base saber only servers, 15% in MBII and maybe 5% on stuff like ctf, instagib, ja+, fullforce etc.

Still, in my opinion CTF takes probably the most skill of all gamemodes. I say that, even though I was a really, really good TDM and MBII player and not even average in CTF.

I know that I'm not perfect in my opinions and I know that I can be unfair at times (especially when it comes to people who play on JA+ servers) but in the end... that's the difference. I never said that saber only is the gametype that requires the most skill even though I easily could have. I played and tried all gamemodes and gametypes in this game. When I say I didn't play xyz then I mean, that I didn't play it on a serious level.

But that you guys don't even take the time to read Ping's post before you're replying shows that you're a dead loss anyway.

 

Why would i play a gametype that has no strafing, no fast-paced gameplay, and artificially puts everyone on the same skill level with horrible mechanics. MB2 Is a joke lol. may as well have tie-fighter fights. btw i've played saber only, its completely easy. ive beaten water, forty, rob, a few base clans in tffas with snow/rob/loda, and that was with minimal practice /no prior experience. i have never tried hard in any base match ive ever done. force combines everything, saber only is very limited

 

if you played MBII and thought you were gonna be an expert at ctf, you were sadly mistaken . mbii takes less skill than lugormod fighting lol. lugormod still has strafing and normal force (without proper regen/weird force levels/no kicks, shit compared to normal FF but at least its not mb2)

[Kane]

That still doesn't explain how you can compare the amount of skill required for each gametype. You just stated where else these skills are seen...

 

Can you specifically say what in fullforcing requires more skill than strafing, or sabers only (as examples)? In my mind, these all require different skill sets - full forcing requires twitch reactions and quick thinking, strafing is about finely tuned hand movements (which eventually just become muscle memory anyway), sabers is about timing. They just aren't comparable :/

Fullforcing varies depending on your settings but you will always need a few things

 

1) Reflexes to quickly come up with counters and execute moves consecutively (pulling from gripkicks, grip stunning, pkting, pushing, etc)

2) Strafing to chase people or get away when you have low hp

3) Intelligence - you can't just spam the same things and expect it to work. there are counters for everything. in ctf u can just spam rockets and force pull and kill someone, it has very minimal counters. in Fullforce if u try to spam PKT it will get blocked by them or your saber will drop or they will drainlock you when you have low force, or people with poke while you're in a middle of a pull, etc... 

4)Timing - if you mess up the timing on your moves it wil severely impact your play. drain at the wrong time and you'll be out of range, waste your force, and you will be wide open. push at the wrong moment with low hp and it wont stun them, itll  just push them back and they can quickly come up with 2-3 counters.  

5) Aim/Muscle-memory - pulling from gks, gripping as fast as possible, aiming st's professionally so they'll always curve around players body (watch the bk vs jundon demo) , pkting accurately, going for headshots with sts, etc...

 

base sabers involve 2 things, poking and footwork. there is also some strafing involved but its limited to just bunnyhopping