Ping

I confirm that JKA has had plenty of cheaters and still has a lot of people who would do everything to give themselves an unfair advantage over their opponents.

No idea!

Good choice @@Onysfx. Unfortunately it's been dead for the last 6 years or so.

I'm surprised the sockpuppet has not been banned.

"Russian Server Pack.exe" SEEMS LEGIT

Yeah!!!!

You have to give an argument to show how one follows from the other. The guy could, after all, just as well be merely enjoying a bad game. At the same time saying that the matter is completely subjective leads to a huge amount of (at best) implausible and (at worst) absurd conclusions. And merely restating the position doesn't make it any better. But I guess you're right: We should probably just drop it.

@@eezstreet: Likewise, just because people disagree about the matter doesn't make it any less of a fact. I've already said that once. I'm still waiting for someone to actually address my points (or even read my post). Once again, no. I argue that it is not COMPLETELY subjective. The matter is not as black and white as you make it out to be, and I've already mentioned once that the exact opposite of saying that "x is completely subjective" is itself a terrible position. I also don't argue against making "absolute statements". That's a very strange turn. How the hell did you get there?

Nope, widely off the mark. We're talking about whether a game is good. You argue that there is nothing outside of you experiencing the game that determines whether or not it is "good". I disagree and I gave reasons as to why I disagree that you didn't care to address. That's alright, but I don't see why I shouldn't return the favour.

Disagreement about something does not preclude that something from being a fact. There is plenty of disagreement about facts. But it's very good that you point out that there are websites dedicated to giving arguments as to whether or not a game is good (or its combat, for that matter) and that there is a very large amount of dispute about those things. But if something were completely subjective, there could be no rational justification for it, as we can see with actual expressions of taste: If I say that I don't like ice cream and you ask me why, there is not much I can say besides 'I just don't'. There is a large difference between those cases and, say, disliking Infinite's combat, on which a lot can be said and many reasons for disliking it can be given. In fact, some people make a livelihood doing just that: namely disputing the merits of games and we even hold competitions (think IGF) that are based on the possibility of making judgements about the merits of a game. If it's all completely subjective though, it implausibly follows that all of those things are based on a mistake, namely that professional critics etc only seem to appear to judge a game on merit, but what they really do is state personal preferences - and indeed, they take hundreds of words to put the phrases 'I like it' or 'I don't like it' into as many different variations as they can. And, also, they constantly use misleadingly wrong language, saying that something actually is good or bad (as you did many times over the course of your last two posts), whereas what they actually mean to say is that they like/prefer that something. If that were true, why wouldn't they just say it? There are more problems: I already hinted in my previous post that if it were completely subjective, every opinion on it would be equally as valid, even the ones that are argued on the basis of features that don't appear in the game or don't even exist. I'm not saying there is one undisputed way of making a good game or anything as ridiculously radical as that. But I don't think the exact opposite position is any more plausible. There are some games that I'm sure we can all very uncontroversially agree are better than some other games, likewise there are some skins, models and even mods that are better than others. We don't have to go completely subjective to stay open minded, respect the work of others or to have something to tell people like grab off.

You say that some people enjoyed Infinite because they valued the narrative over the gameplay, and that the narrative was good, and other people didn't enjoy Infinite because the combat was actually terrible. But if things were "completely subjective", you couldn't say that the combat was actually bad and the narrative was actually good, and you couldn't say that the latter group didn't like the game 'despite it being a narrative masterpiece' or that the former group liked the game 'despite the terrible combat'. You even gave reasons for backing up your claim that the combat was bad - this also would not be possible, or at least wouldn't make much sense to do, if things were "completely subjective". All you could ever possibly say would be: "According to my taste, the combat was bad. But if someone else likes the combat, then him liking the combat is equally as justified and valid as me disliking it, because its merely a matter of taste." So in closing, you already assume that it is not. You assume it in everyday life, you assume it when playing and talking about games, you assume it in your work as a game dev or a modder.

No it's not. But on topic: The game doesn't look very bad and from what I read it seems to be doing many things right. This, alongside the reboot of Shadow Warrior, makes me feel slightly more optimistic about the genre in general.

That was actually quite nice, I enjoyed the video and am looking forward to the next installment.

Are you a music major @@Pande?

Welcome! Never heard of you or any of your work, but I'm sure you'll fit in here quite well.

You are right @@ent. My post was a mistake.

What team were you on?

Base. It's never too late to try to get good at the game.

Because:

Full force is a mistake.

Then obviously JKA for the MP, but then the remake would be something like a JK4, i.e. JKA's gameplay but without the glaring issues. You did mention it being released on consoles, which would inevitably make the gameplay crap though, so I'd probably stick with my vote for JK2 then.

Is it just visuals? Because if so, I'd pick JK2 due to its rather interesting SP.

Yeah, but I'm sure neither of us wants to draw conclusions based on gut feelings or anecdotal evidence, especially when those conclusions involve attributing something negative to an entire organization or player base. We all make mistakes though, and that's totally fine because we're all here to learn from each other and to dispell stereotypes like these that might prevent one side from constructively engaging with the other.

There was a thread on the ESL forums where some people claimed 1.00 was the best, and so therefore "ESL are 1.00ers"? That's like saying that because some people in the porting thread on jkhub claimed that porting was ok, therefore "JKHub are porters". But while we're at it, since you were apparently following the ESL discussions so closely, you should have also noticed that there was a large admin-based discussion as to whether or not to start JA+ and MB2 ladders to accomodate all the people who prefer playing on those mods. The only reason none of those were implemented was that attempts at getting people interested to join the ESL, even for potential JA+ ladders, have mostly failed. If all the JA+ clans would suddenly come together and write the admins that they want their own ladder, they'd get it in a heartbeat - we've been doing this for years when it comes to nationalities: The Hungarians and even the Russians got their own 1v1 ladders when their player base got large enough, and there is no purist nonsense preventing us from creating JA+ ladders for the people interested. As to why the ESL has an aversion to having its matches from the current leagues played on anything but pure base servers: Standardising server options helps against cheating and it also prevents people from pulling the "lol your mod obviously does change the gameplay" card as an excuse for losing, regardless of whether or not the gameplay actually differs. So I hope we can put some of the prejudices here to rest and stop spreading misinformation.

Where did you get that one from? Ever since the patch was released, the ESL fully embraced it and required all matches to be played on 1.01. There was never even a discussion or a vote or anything like that, never separate 1.00 ladders (at least for the SO format) or some other nonsense. The people who kept playing 1.00 did it on their own and were in the vast minority.