Evolution of Combat IV - Main Topic

[Hels]

This has a bitter taste of me. I've seen this mod grow, and I know for good that Serenity is been working on it. I guess that even though, he really has taken some work from someone else. I attach it to mistakes, or to not being aware of how things work, but after so much read here, I am starting to fear this is not true. We the players, have done a small community, and even though the game has a lot of bugs, it is true that the sabersystem saw in game has received tweaks and feels kinda smooth. Can you confirm me this is the OpenJK system with just a few tweaks? I in fact missed many things, and being realistic, I've never known why some bugs were not corrected.

Seing things now with perspective makes me sad. I will still support and play the mod for the momment, but if you confirm me there are almost no differences between this mod and OpenJK sabersystem... then I would surely get angered.

 

what's with all this negative bias towards mb2 (the mod, I can certainly understand the community having been apart of it for so long lol) lately?

 

I can understand having some healthy competition but to dismiss it @@Hels as mediocre puzzles me. its pretty fully-featured with depth in classes, saber combat, maps, objective-based gameplay and gun-play...and you complain about hit detection? good luck fixing that when it's an issue tied directly to the engine. there's a reason that MB2 has survived from 2003-2016 and you're going to need a pretty impressive development team or a point of serious innovation if you want to take on 2016 MB2 in its extensive and refined form.

I tell is mediocre game because they have gotten numb. Last time I played to see if something change, no, nothing had change. The game is still based on bad saber collisions and on saber flickering, while EoCIV trully feels like playing with a Jedi (although it has bugs). MBII has stand so long because of his community and because it was the first big mod for the game, but in fact the way of dueling is pretty buggy. Everything is based on the f*ckin saber flickering when the two sabers collide and that is ANTICLIMATIC.

That said, I must admit that MBII has a superb game design, and I really like it, but they've never tried to fix that buggy style of combat. I don't like it, is not intuitive, neither realistic. Serenity Sabersystems with the game design of MBII would be great, honestly.

And @@eezstreet, you should take a look on EoCIV. May have content from other people, but the sabersystem is really cool. The fact of using Force Points as Blocking Points adds some interest to the game in terms of strategy, and makes pretty much sense, as they could be understand as "Mental Fatigue points", since focusing on blocking a saber which is about to hit and do it instinctively, means accessing to the Force, and even if it was by pure reflexes, that means to focus on the battle, and that as well as doing Force Powers, tires anyone. FP are not then Force Points but... FOCUS POINTS.

Moreover, I heard you wanted to do a simple saberstyle without DFA or acrobatic moves. I must say I don't agree with that. While I don't want a permarun game, removing contect is not the solution, imo. I can understand that you preffer the old movies duels, and even I do in some way, but I must recognice that the Episode I, II and III have a much better coreography, and, moreover, the Jedi and the sith were more skilled then. Episode IV, V and VI is about an old glory anakin which have gone rusty inside his armor, against more than a merely Jedi Knight, since I don't think Luke is trully a Jedi Master in the 6th episode.

So which one is the solution? IMO, the solution is adding a upper class above styles called FORMS, that congregates various styles when "buying it" with exp points. This way, Ataru could be having yellow style, as well as shii-cho, but the yellow style of Ataru would be faster, hit stronger, and have DFA and bonus to Force Powers, while Shii-choo would not. Aswell, the game could be made like mmo with mastery trees for each Form, and so, some Forms would need to have some masteries from the other Forms to work. This way, let's take for example Form V: Djem So. It could feature red style, but to take it from this class, you would need to pick first yellow style from shii-choo, Form II phylosophy mastery that would make easier to redirect the hits, and Form III Soresu blocking mastery. And then you would be able to activate Form V. Aswell, to activate Red DFA in Form V, you would have need to have previously bought some mastery in Ataru which fuels your attacks with Force, etc.

I see it like that since it is how happens in the Star Wars world, and in adittion you want to develop a mmo styled mod. If you did so, you would have a complexity building of things. But... really, remove blocking points. They are not necessary, and would give reason to players to pick things to make his Force Pull stronger. As well, it would give an explanation of why Grand Master are always better in saber combat than any other, even if they haven't specially trained it. They can focus more and better (have more focus points).

Consider what I tell you.

[ensiform]

It is more likely to have come from OJP mod than OpenJK.  OpenJK saber system is no different from basejka.

[Hels]

It is more likely to have come from OJP mod than OpenJK.  OpenJK saber system is no different from basejka.

I always get confused between OJP and OpenJK.

[ensiform]

Huge difference.  OpenJK isn't even a mod.

 

Nobody is detesting that its cool or not, we aren't detesting that is cool fwiw and never were.  The problems are of legal concerns is all.  Please stop pandering the author simply because you are a player of the mod and do not understand the issues at hand.

[Clan FJA]

 

And @@eezstreet, you should take a look on EoCIV. May have content from other people, but the sabersystem is really cool. The fact of using Force Points as Blocking Points adds some interest to the game in terms of strategy, and makes pretty much sense, as they could be understand as "Mental Fatigue points", since focusing on blocking a saber which is about to hit and do it instinctively, means accessing to the Force, and even if it was by pure reflexes, that means to focus on the battle, and that as well as doing Force Powers, tires anyone. FP are not then Force Points but... FOCUS POINTS.

 

 

The saber system of EoC IV is really "cool" because it was taken from earlier version of OJP. Yeah, Serenity added some tweaks and changed some things but the similitude with OJP is just an evidence. The last versions of OJP removed the block button, while Serenity kept it, but there is always the dodge and mishap bar renamed.

The "Serenity saber system" has too much similitudes with OJP to be a whole new saber system from scratch. I played OJP, and immediately I was able to play correctly EoC, applying the same strategies. Oh there are always differences.

 

I don't mind Serenity for using the OJP saber system. I mind him for trying to claim he did all the work alone and puting his name on it.

[eezstreet]

I wouldn't want to add fuel to the fire, but:

 

http://www.moddb.com/forum/thread/infrigiment-report

 

 

It really doesn't sound like a "mistake".

....how can you "not be able to prove it," I literally laid out exactly where and what files to look for. There are folders named "JKG" filled with our assets.

 

And Serenity is clearly lying through his teeth or is incompetent (or both), because the stuff is there and he seems to have a weird blood feud with me anyway. Not sure why.

 

 

This has a bitter taste of me. I've seen this mod grow, and I know for good that Serenity is been working on it. I guess that even though, he really has taken some work from someone else. I attach it to mistakes, or to not being aware of how things work, but after so much read here, I am starting to fear this is not true. We the players, have done a small community, and even though the game has a lot of bugs, it is true that the sabersystem saw in game has received tweaks and feels kinda smooth. Can you confirm me this is the OpenJK system with just a few tweaks? I in fact missed many things, and being realistic, I've never known why some bugs were not corrected.

 

Seing things now with perspective makes me sad. I will still support and play the mod for the momment, but if you confirm me there are almost no differences between this mod and OpenJK sabersystem... then I would surely get angered.

 

I tell is mediocre game because they have gotten numb. Last time I played to see if something change, no, nothing had change. The game is still based on bad saber collisions and on saber flickering, while EoCIV trully feels like playing with a Jedi (although it has bugs). MBII has stand so long because of his community and because it was the first big mod for the game, but in fact the way of dueling is pretty buggy. Everything is based on the f*ckin saber flickering when the two sabers collide and that is ANTICLIMATIC.

 

That said, I must admit that MBII has a superb game design, and I really like it, but they've never tried to fix that buggy style of combat. I don't like it, is not intuitive, neither realistic. Serenity Sabersystems with the game design of MBII would be great, honestly.

 

And @@eezstreet, you should take a look on EoCIV. May have content from other people, but the sabersystem is really cool. The fact of using Force Points as Blocking Points adds some interest to the game in terms of strategy, and makes pretty much sense, as they could be understand as "Mental Fatigue points", since focusing on blocking a saber which is about to hit and do it instinctively, means accessing to the Force, and even if it was by pure reflexes, that means to focus on the battle, and that as well as doing Force Powers, tires anyone. FP are not then Force Points but... FOCUS POINTS.

 

Moreover, I heard you wanted to do a simple saberstyle without DFA or acrobatic moves. I must say I don't agree with that. While I don't want a permarun game, removing contect is not the solution, imo. I can understand that you preffer the old movies duels, and even I do in some way, but I must recognice that the Episode I, II and III have a much better coreography, and, moreover, the Jedi and the sith were more skilled then. Episode IV, V and VI is about an old glory anakin which have gone rusty inside his armor, against more than a merely Jedi Knight, since I don't think Luke is trully a Jedi Master in the 6th episode.

 

So which one is the solution? IMO, the solution is adding a upper class above styles called FORMS, that congregates various styles when "buying it" with exp points. This way, Ataru could be having yellow style, as well as shii-cho, but the yellow style of Ataru would be faster, hit stronger, and have DFA and bonus to Force Powers, while Shii-choo would not. Aswell, the game could be made like mmo with mastery trees for each Form, and so, some Forms would need to have some masteries from the other Forms to work. This way, let's take for example Form V: Djem So. It could feature red style, but to take it from this class, you would need to pick first yellow style from shii-choo, Form II phylosophy mastery that would make easier to redirect the hits, and Form III Soresu blocking mastery. And then you would be able to activate Form V. Aswell, to activate Red DFA in Form V, you would have need to have previously bought some mastery in Ataru which fuels your attacks with Force, etc.

 

I see it like that since it is how happens in the Star Wars world, and in adittion you want to develop a mmo styled mod. If you did so, you would have a complexity building of things. But... really, remove blocking points. They are not necessary, and would give reason to players to pick things to make his Force Pull stronger. As well, it would give an explanation of why Grand Master are always better in saber combat than any other, even if they haven't specially trained it. They can focus more and better (have more focus points).

 

Consider what I tell you.

 

Well I can't personally comment on the Serenity Saber System because I've never played it, I've only seen videos and screenshots and (to me) it seems similar if only because of the presence of three individual bars for saber-related stuff.

 

I think you are slightly confused - Jedi Knight Galaxies doesn't use OJP (and OpenJK doesn't modify the saber system) and instead everything was written from scratch from the base code. Let me clear up some things regarding the saber system though:

• Force Points are in fact used. Each swing of your saber drains Force. The lower your force points, the slower your swings in general and the less damage they do. Force Points are also used for sprinting (although it's commonly referred to as 'stamina' in this context) and some basic acrobatics.
• We also have block points and direction-based manual blocking. By manually blocking in the correct direction, you will lose less block points. If you run out of block points, you are open to a swing. Unlike MB2 though, block points regenerate very quickly and incorrect blocks lose lots of block points.
• You kinda unintentionally answered why the fights in JKG aren't as choreographed: it takes place between Episode 3 and 4, during a time where Jedi aren't nearly as prolific and are actively killed on sight. Some people even think that Jedi aren't real. Therefore it's highly unlikely that fights would be as complicated and drawn out as the prequels.
• Why would having block points encourage using Force Pull? Keep in mind that we aren't aiming for an MB2-like system, and force powers are also completely different in JKG.

[Hels]

 

....how can you "not be able to prove it," I literally laid out exactly where and what files to look for. There are folders named "JKG" filled with our assets.

 

And Serenity is clearly lying through his teeth or is incompetent (or both), because the stuff is there and he seems to have a weird blood feud with me anyway. Not sure why.

 

Well I can't personally comment on the Serenity Saber System because I've never played it, I've only seen videos and screenshots and (to me) it seems similar if only because of the presence of three individual bars for saber-related stuff.

 

I think you are slightly confused - Jedi Knight Galaxies doesn't use OJP (and OpenJK doesn't modify the saber system) and instead everything was written from scratch from the base code. Let me clear up some things regarding the saber system though:

• Force Points are in fact used. Each swing of your saber drains Force. The lower your force points, the slower your swings in general and the less damage they do. Force Points are also used for sprinting (although it's commonly referred to as 'stamina' in this context) and some basic acrobatics.
• We also have block points and direction-based manual blocking. By manually blocking in the correct direction, you will lose less block points. If you run out of block points, you are open to a swing. Unlike MB2 though, block points regenerate very quickly and incorrect blocks lose lots of block points.
• You kinda unintentionally answered why the fights in JKG aren't as choreographed: it takes place between Episode 3 and 4, during a time where Jedi aren't nearly as prolific and are actively killed on sight. Some people even think that Jedi aren't real. Therefore it's highly unlikely that fights would be as complicated and drawn out as the prequels.
• Why would having block points encourage using Force Pull? Keep in mind that we aren't aiming for an MB2-like system, and force powers are also completely different in JKG.

 

Well, what about the collision system? Never liked MBII because of that. Flickering is annoying as fuck. And half the time, the saber passed through the enemy, not slashin' him.

 

About the three bars you saw... That was back in EoCII. EoC III used blocking points too. EoCIV uses Force Points as Blocking points, I put here an example for you.

 

 

So... why don't simply use ForcePoints for blocking as done in EoCIV? I don't mean using Block Points for Force Powers, I talk you about using Force Points for autoblocking, which is mostly the opposite. If Force Points are used FOR EVERYTHING, running, acrobatics, ForcePowers, autoblocking and attacking you won't want to run while on a duel. Neither jump. Neither almost anything outta block or attack. You could keep de DFA's and people would be very selective on using them if they drain too much Force. Only when they raised their Force Points pool, they would dare to use acrobatics. Do you get what I mean? If you make Force Points used for everything, people would need to MANAGE THEM.

 

If in adition you can replicate the rest of the sabersystem as seen in the video, trust me, you would have a great system.

 

Think about that, you've got the solution at your sight.

[Mand'alor]

Does EoC IV include melee moves from Movie Battles 2 ? Kinda seems like it.

[eezstreet]

Well, what about the collision system? Never liked MBII because of that. Flickering is annoying as fuck. And half the time, the saber passed through the enemy, not slashin' him.

 

About the three bars you saw... That was back in EoCII. EoC III used blocking points too. EoCIV uses Force Points as Blocking points, I put here an example for you.

 

 

So... why don't simply use ForcePoints for blocking as done in EoCIV? I don't mean using Block Points for Force Powers, I talk you about using Force Points for autoblocking, which is mostly the opposite. If Force Points are used FOR EVERYTHING, running, acrobatics, ForcePowers, autoblocking and attacking you won't want to run while on a duel. Neither jump. Neither almost anything outta block or attack. You could keep de DFA's and people would be very selective on using them if they drain too much Force. Only when they raised their Force Points pool, they would dare to use acrobatics. Do you get what I mean? If you make Force Points used for everything, people would need to MANAGE THEM.

 

If in adition you can replicate the rest of the sabersystem as seen in the video, trust me, you would have a great system.

 

Think about that, you've got the solution at your sight.

This is starting to get a little bit off topic.

And I think you and I are talking past each other here. In JKG: You can't regenerate block points in most circumstances like running or jumping, yet you can regenerate Force passively and without effort. It doesn't make sense that your blocking should somehow become better simply because you haven't been sprinting (read: not running; sprinting) or jumping around. You can still be running around and have good blocking prowess. That to me doesn't make any sense.

I'd like you to actually try JKG's saber system at some point and see how much you like it. I'm pretty sure you'd argue that it's very different from what you've experienced in JKA from other mods and you might enjoy it.

[DarthDementous]

I don't mean to stray off-topic but I'm just interested in hearing some things cleared up for MB2 @@Hels.

 

what exactly do you mean by saber-flickering? when two sabers collide you either perform a body hit (full impact on blocking saber, takes away more Block Points) or a glancing hit (bounces off the saber, very little Block Point damage). in either event a flickering spark effect is played, is that what you meant? that's pretty much how it works in all the Star Wars movies.

 

interesting that you have problems with hit-detection, are you talking about passthroughs (saber travels through an unblocking opponent without dealing damage)? if so, like I said before that's an issue with the engine not MB2 specifically. hit-boxes have been pretty thoroughly tweaked and believe me its a lot better than it once was. that also leads me onto my next point about another issue you have: not much being added through updates.

 

MB2 has transformed incredibly significantly over the years. I've been playing it since 2006 and a lot of custom content has been added. hell, for better or for worse, the saber system changes every 4 months .

[eezstreet]

Let's really not bring MB2 into this. This is already confusing enough.

[Jolly]

Some people get their asses kicked so hard in Movie Battle 2 they can't help but bitch and complain and tell themselves lies to sleep at night. Back onto the topic of EOC lol. This is such a disaster and there has not been a single word on the forum from serenity. I think he is pulling a Luke Skywalker, if were lucky we will get a intense stare of some kind. Good luck

[Hels]

I don't mean to stray off-topic but I'm just interested in hearing some things cleared up for MB2 @@Hels.

 

what exactly do you mean by saber-flickering? when two sabers collide you either perform a body hit (full impact on blocking saber, takes away more Block Points) or a glancing hit (bounces off the saber, very little Block Point damage). in either event a flickering spark effect is played, is that what you meant? that's pretty much how it works in all the Star Wars movies.

 

interesting that you have problems with hit-detection, are you talking about passthroughs (saber travels through an unblocking opponent without dealing damage)? if so, like I said before that's an issue with the engine not MB2 specifically. hit-boxes have been pretty thoroughly tweaked and believe me its a lot better than it once was. that also leads me onto my next point about another issue you have: not much being added through updates.

 

MB2 has transformed incredibly significantly over the years. I've been playing it since 2006 and a lot of custom content has been added. hell, for better or for worse, the saber system changes every 4 months .

About hit detection, I hope they have better, in fact last time I played I remember it a little bit better than before. By flickering I mean that when two sabers in the guard get closer (not even clashing), the saber does a strange animation, which is used to start a... half-swing, was named? Adding a lot of confusion in fast interchange of hits and making it not very movie realistic. The whole thing of the game is about spamming combos each time you attack, as seen here

https://youtu.be/ClnMyn8FtFg?t=3m20s

or here

https://youtu.be/ClnMyn8FtFg?t=3m23s

which is not very movie like. In movies, each time your saber hits an enemy, you get a big rebound. You aint getting the opportunity to spam the saber as seen there, like doing various attacks on a row and spamming the attack combo onto the enemies face. That won't happen in EoCIV. Each time your saber is hit, it gets a rebound, you cannot spam the attack. I've some sparring in real life and EoCIV is more realistic. Much more.

 

@@eezstreet, let's make a deal. I try JKG sabersystem, but you try EoCIV one, and see what ideas you can take outta there. I don't care a damn thing about serenity (I do about Matt) and I have my reasons, but I gotta recognize that the sabersystem in general, the collisions, the pacing, etc., are interesting enough to give them a look and try to replicate some of them.

 

And trust me. You block better if you don't run. Have you done real life saber fighting? I've done, and I can guaranteed that it has a lot to do with your breath, same as pointing a gun to somebody. It has to do with FOCUS, and focus is lost if you sprint, your heart beats faster and you have to take your breath again. So yeah, I think it should be better if running, sprinting, Force Powers, and autoblocking were needed to have Force Points up (Let's say stamina points instead or focus points) and not adding a bar of Blocking Points.

 

I don't say I am not going to like your sabersystem, which I might, and in fact I am almost sure I'll do for what I've heard. What I try to say is that I've tried EoCIV one and is interesting, and aswell as I may like JKG sabersystem, you might like EoCIV one. As a developer, is my opinion that you should draw inspiration for other existing mods, even those you have been having problems with. Never underestimate someone's work, even your rivals. At the beginning, I also thought that using Force Points as Blocking Points would be a bad idea, trust me. Well... I tried EoCIV, and now I am completely convinced of the opposite. Might have a reason, don't you think so?

 

Tell me where I can download JKG, and I'll give it a try.

[Clan FJA]

 

That won't happen in EoCIV. Each time your saber is hit, it gets a rebound, you cannot spam the attack. I've some sparring in real life and EoCIV is more realistic.

 

1) Already in OJP.

 

2) Serenity added several weapons and made some modifications to the saber system (for example, the light of the saber change with your "focus point") but the core (rebound, collisions, ...) just come from OJP. Please, it hurts my brain each time some one says that Serenity saber system is the best. Maybe he has improved the sabersystem (I don't agree, I think that OJP sabersystem is better than the random tweaked version of EoC) but he did not create it !

 

3) Stop trying to convince us to play EoC, MBII or JKG, it is out of topic, as Eestreet underlined. The topic is about the EoC infringement. If you want to speak about sabersystem, there is already another dedicated topic : https://jkhub.org/topic/6327-about-sabersystems-mod-existing-on-the-web/?hl=%2Bbest+%2Bsabersystem

[Futuza]

/off topic

@@Hels

http://jkhub.org/files/file/2652-jedi-knight-galaxies-map-bundle-1/ 

http://jkhub.org/files/file/2543-jedi-knight-galaxies-assets/

http://jkhub.org/files/file/2544-jedi-knight-galaxies-binaries/

 

But...you might want to wait till the next release, this is really old.

 

But yeah this is all getting off topic...and as far as I'm concerned there's not much to say about EoC until Serenity actually responds.

[Hels]

1) Already in OJP.

 

2) Serenity added several weapons and made some modifications to the saber system (for example, the light of the saber change with your "focus point") but the core (rebound, collisions, ...) just come from OJP. Please, it hurts my brain each time some one says that Serenity saber system is the best. Maybe he has improved the sabersystem (I don't agree, I think that OJP sabersystem is better than the random tweaked version of EoC) but he did not create it !

 

3) Stop trying to convince us to play EoC, MBII or JKG, it is out of topic, as Eestreet underlined. The topic is about the EoC infringement. If you want to speak about sabersystem, there is already another dedicated topic : https://jkhub.org/topic/6327-about-sabersystems-mod-existing-on-the-web/?hl=%2Bbest+%2Bsabersystem

Ok Serenity might have modified OJP. Is fine for me. Tweaks are not random, in my opinion. And no, the topic is not EoC infringement in fact, since this topic was created to draw people into EoCIV. You devirtued the topic, that was EoC IV announcement. If you want to talk about EoC IV infringement of copyright, go other thread. I am respecting the topic far more than you. However, I am starting to belive that there really is some kind of conspiration against EoC IV. I don't respect what Serenity did, but the mod might be passing onto Matt since Serenity doesn't respond, and Matt will try to credit everyone on the mod. About the license, all has been said. If it's made over OJP, is of free to use and be modified as long as there is no intent of earning money with it, although if I wanted to donate someone to them, I would be on my right, btw.

 

So, everything is pretty clear now. EoC IV will try to redeem itself, and you better give it a second opportunity, or you will be speaking by ourselves about what kind of person you are trying to make collapse a mod with a bright future on sight, instead of leaving all in peace.

 

Good night and have fun playing. And @@Darth Futuza, thanks for the link to the other thread, I will give it a look.

 

Edit: Gave a look. I already posted in that thread. Not very much was said, and well, there says that EoC III was built over OJP. I am not sure if EoC IV is made over OJP too or not. Might be using some things of OJP over the released base code, and some tweaks added by serenity to all of this, and I can't find any infringement over there. As much, not saying the license that is released over (GNU GPLv2), and that can be corrected aswell. Seems everything is pretty clear now, at least to me.

[ensiform]

To the best of my knowledge the source being open for OJP does not make it free to use and be modified especially with the GPL license unless all people who worked on the Open Jedi Project (OJP) allowed it to be relicensed as such. This is a technicality of GPL vs the SDK.

[eezstreet]

Ok Serenity might have modified OJP. Is fine for me. Tweaks are not random, in my opinion. And no, the topic is not EoC infringement in fact, since this topic was created to draw people into EoCIV. You devirtued the topic, that was EoC IV announcement. If you want to talk about EoC IV infringement of copyright, go other thread. I am respecting the topic far more than you. However, I am starting to belive that there really is some kind of conspiration against EoC IV. I don't respect what Serenity did, but the mod might be passing onto Matt since Serenity doesn't respond, and Matt will try to credit everyone on the mod. About the license, all has been said. If it's made over OJP, is of free to use and be modified as long as there is no intent of earning money with it, although if I wanted to donate someone to them, I would be on my right, btw.

 

So, everything is pretty clear now. EoC IV will try to redeem itself, and you better give it a second opportunity, or you will be speaking by ourselves about what kind of person you are trying to make collapse a mod with a bright future on sight, instead of leaving all in peace.

 

Good night and have fun playing. And @@Darth Futuza, thanks for the link to the other thread, I will give it a look.

 

Edit: Gave a look. I already posted in that thread. Not very much was said, and well, there says that EoC III was built over OJP. I am not sure if EoC IV is made over OJP too or not. Might be using some things of OJP over the released base code, and some tweaks added by serenity to all of this, and I can't find any infringement over there. As much, not saying the license that is released over (GNU GPLv2), and that can be corrected aswell. Seems everything is pretty clear now, at least to me.

There is no conspiracy here. I've laid out the facts. MattFiler has contacted me and said that he will contact Serenity about removing the content which was against copyright. Simple as that. If the content is removed, that's great, no problem. It's not like I have a motivation to see them fail or whatever. I just want my content removed.

 

If this thread continues to go off-topic, I might be tempted to lock it again.

[MattFiler]

Hey everyone,

 

I know by posting here I'm probably going to be spammed with hate, but please just hear me out.

I've been saving this post up for some time and I have been waiting to share this information on Friday in a news post on ModDB, but just checking this thread and seeing how many people have such strong feelings about the current mod situation I thought I'd post it now.

 

Just to make it clear (although I'm sure you'll understand by the end of this post anyway) I am not the mod developer, I am simply the guy that promotes the mod. I created the teaser videos, managed the mod page, created the auto updater, all that kind of stuff. The only involvement I have had with the actual development of the mod is play-testing new updates with my friends, developing the launcher, making and managing the website and creating the menus.

 

Serenity contacted me around August 2015 (after I released a somewhat fixed up version of EoCIII) to help promote EoCIV and manage the mod's ModDB page so that he would be able to spend time working on the mod instead of interacting with the community. I accepted, happy to be a part of a project I knew would be very popular. I worked on making the ModDB page look presentable, replying to people quickly to create a strong community relationship and designing a modern styled website and server back-end for the mod to allow for automatic updates, just to give the mod something to set it apart from the rest. I play-tested new versions of the mod that Serenity sent me over time with friends and sent him regular feedback to help discover bugs and issues.

 

Soon after the launch of EoCIV there were accusations of stolen content here on JKHub and I took them very seriously. I didn't want to put my name to a project that stole content. I know how KOTF played out and I didn't want to get involved with something like that, this was never my intention. I spoke to Serenity many times about stolen content (Someone saying earlier in this thread that I knew there was stolen content all along - this isn't true. I was aware there were people claiming that there was copyrighted content and that's why I'd repeatedly ask Serenity about it.) and every time he would assure me that the mod was all his own work and that there was nothing stolen from other projects. I went along with what he said because I trusted him, I'd been working with him for months already and he seemed like a trustworthy guy (and I do still feel this way).

 

Recently, the accusations of stolen content have been building up here on JKHub and Serenity's been putting off responding to me about it. Just over a month ago I got a message from Serenity saying he'd had enough and that he was retiring from modding. He sent me one final version of the mod (what I just released as patch 2) and he told me that this was the end. I replied to him asking for the source of the mod so that I could continue working on it and actually verify for myself if there is stolen content and go through it and remove it if necessary. He didn't respond until just recently (which is why I've kept from talking publicly about the mod for ages - I am in the dark here myself) when he finally agreed to send me the source of the mod so that I can continue working on it. As a result I released patch 2, started interacting with the community again and thought nothing of it.

 

Just after releasing patch 2 the ModDB page was pulled and I started getting PMs from ModDB staff criticising the mod for stolen content and they pointed me to this thread. As Serenity hasn't sent me the source yet, I can't comment for sure on whether there is stolen content (although obviously by this point it's very clear there is) and so I agreed with the ModDB staff to take down the download for the mod. Big shout-out to them by the way for doing a superb job on keeping a check on the content they host.

 

So where does this leave the mod currently? The download has been removed from ModDB (which I agree with) and the mod is currently not in active development. Once Serenity sends me the source of the mod I will go through it very thoroughly to remove any copyrighted content and fix it up to be a working, legal build. I don't want to cause trouble, I've been trying to do the complete opposite. To be honest, I don't think Serenity wanted to cause any issues either. It seems like he had someone working with him on EoCIII who sorted out the legal stuff for him - perhaps he needed someone like that on EoCIV too, I don't think he understood just how much he's obviously used without asking.

 

I'm really sorry to anyone who has had content stolen for this mod, I hope you can see it was never my intention to get involved with this kind of thing and I really mean no harm by it. I develop little mods in my spare time and I know exactly how I'd feel if someone stole my work and didn't even credit it or seem to acknowledge it.

I'll work on correcting the issues as soon as I can but I'm limited by how long it takes Serenity to send me the source so I can get started on fixing up the issues reported (thanks Eezstreet for such a detailed post earlier in this thread). He's still recovering from being flooded which is why it's taking him so long.

 

Again, this isn't how I'd have liked any of this to turn out, and I hope I can correct it as soon as possible. Feel free to PM me if your content is being used in EoC so I can keep a record ready for when I get the source so I can remove it for you.

 

-Matt

[Futuza]

Thanks for the response MattFiler, glad we can get a better idea of what's going on.  Damn shame Serenity doesn't want to just be open about things and work with everyone to complete the mod and get credits appropriated though.  Oh well.

[Darth Sion]

To be honest, Serenity has brought this all on himself.. And he's only got himself to blame, nobody else. Even if someone else other than MattFiler was dealing with the stolen content or whatever, it wouldn't have hurt for Serenity, himself to have gone back over said content and checked to make sure. I know you shouldn't have to, when it's left in the hands of people you would normally trust. But if Serenity has done this himself, then I've got no sympathy for him.

If he's come onto JKHub or Moddb to become a modder, then he must know and realise all the rules and regulations he's got to obey (Just like everyone else would) and if he can't comply with those regulations, then his mods shouldn't even be allowed public access. I'm sorry you've had to go through this experience, @@MattFiler. At least you're trying to put things right and make an effort. What I can see, from what you've heard from Serenity.. It's like he's now crying in the corner and throwing a temper tantrum, because he can't get his own way. If he was aware of the sort of fucked up situation that the KoTF mod was in and didn't want a repeat of that with his own mod, then he should know better. And he must've realised that there would be a public out-cry of some sort (hence this forum thread) about the content used in the mod. So I don't really see why he's taking this so personally and threatening to retire from modding, altogether. Again, it's his fault and his alone. If he's had problems at home, what with flooding and bad weather, like we've had here in the UK, the last few months.. I can understand that, but in no way, shape or form is that a viable reason to not credit other users for their work or have their permission to use their mods. What's the point of smartphones?! Practically everyone has one, these days and he could've easily requested other user's permission via e-mail or logged into this site, via the webapp (i.e Safari on iOS, Google Chrome on Android. etc.)

Again, I feel sorry you've had this experience in dealing with him and what's been thrown your way, by means of Moddb and JKHub. But hopefully, this isn't the last we'll see of Evolution of Combat. And once you're given the source files you need, we trust that you will continue to develop it, in the correct way, because it does have a lot of potential and we all here, want to see it succeed.

[eezstreet]

Hey, @@MattFiler, thanks for the information and giving your side of the situation.

 

When Serenity is referring to source, is he referring to source code, or mod source? Because the PK3s themselves are actually openable with 7zip, winzip, winrar, whatever. I'm not sure if you knew that.

 

Btw, I really actually quite like what you did with the EoC site, it looks pretty good.

[Clan FJA]

You devirtued the topic, that was EoC IV announcement. If you want to talk about EoC IV infringement of copyright, go other thread. I am respecting the topic far more than you.

 

You are right, it's about EoC IV announcement, not the infringement, even it is directly related with EoC. Shame on me.

 

Moreover, shame on me for bringing several messages about the MBII saber system in this topic, the bad collisions, the hit detection, the JKG sabersystem which allow perfect blocks while running, and a lot of other things. Shame on me for asking Eezstreet to work with Serenity on a "perfect" mod.  I made a lot "out of topic" and I am sorry for that.

You are completely right.

 

 

Gave a look. I already posted in that thread. Not very much was said, and well, there says that EoC III was built over OJP. I am not sure if EoC IV is made over OJP too or not. Might be using some things of OJP over the released base code, and some tweaks added by serenity to all of this, and I can't find any infringement over there. As much, not saying the license that is released over (GNU GPLv2), and that can be corrected aswell. Seems everything is pretty clear now, at least to me.

 

I already tested EoC III. It was clearly built on OJP, and EoC IV is clearly just an upgrade of EoC III (even Serenity announced EoC IV sabersystem was completely new in a previous post he removed months ago).

I don't mind Serenity for using OJP code. It was mean to be used by other people to allow them making their own mods. A lot of mods (MBII for example) contains the OJP readme.

I mind people for thinking Serenity created the best sabersystem. It's like... saying that Mint's developpers created the best Linux, while it is based on Ubuntu (just an example, I don't want to start a fight).

 

 

MattFiler : "..."

 

At least an answer ! That is the only thing we wanted. Thanks for clarifying the situation !

 

MattFiler : Someone saying earlier in this thread that I knew there was stolen content all along - this isn't true. I was aware there were people claiming that there was copyrighted content and that's why I'd repeatedly ask Serenity about it.

 

It is me who said something like that. I would not say that you were aware of the stolen content since the beginning, I said that after reading the post (on Moddb) inwhich you asked Eezstreet to point you the content after he already did it on JKHUB (before you notice it was Eezstreet) and we already pointed that the mod contain JKA and JKO assets. It was just a misunderstand, sorry.

 

MattFiler (on Moddb) :  I've been talking to a site admin and we've agreed to take the download for EoCIV down because I can't 100% confirm myself if there are stolen assets and although Serenity is insisting that there aren't any, he hasn't given me any proof.

 

That is the REAL problem we have with Serenity. We don't mind people as long as they are fair. I don't really care about Serenity putting skins and maps from other people in his mod. I mind about the fact he is not honest and try to lie.

[MattFiler]

When Serenity is referring to source, is he referring to source code, or mod source? Because the PK3s themselves are actually openable with 7zip, winzip, winrar, whatever. I'm not sure if you knew that.

 

He's referring to the source code of the mod, since he's saying he doesn't want to be involved in the project anymore it means I'll still be able to create game updates as well as correct the copyright issues.

I'm aware that I can modify the PK3 files, zEvolution_of_CombatIV_11.pk3 is my PK3 file in the build where I developed all the menus, etc. I use IZArc to open/edit them.

I would remove the copyrighted content by simply going through the PK3s and deleting it all, but obviously that would leave errors in the game which is why I need the actual source code so I can remove the references from the code before deleting stuff.

[JAWSFreelao]

@@MattFiler way to be honest about it. Like everyone had said; if he had humbled himself and at least spoken about it nobody would be so pissed off.