Unofficial Community Patch?

[Warlock]

So, I know I'm rather new here to the JKHub, but I have been looking around to see what's out there. I came across some posts in the OpenJK project where some coders are suggesting that it's still "illegal" to alter the assets files for JK games. With the close of LucasArts and with Raven releasing the source code to the public, I find it hard to believe that this 10-year old game is not now considered open-source.

 

I have been around many other modding communities, and generally once the devs stop supporting the game and release the code, that's the nod to whatever's left of the community to take on whatever DIY maintenance projects that might be had. Generally a group of coders, such as the ones here at JKHub, will work together combining their best and brightest skills to simply patch the bugs that exist in the game.

 

Now, this may sound like a wild idea, because the purests will say that base MP is as good as it gets already and has no flaws, and you will have many other modders who feel there are various issues they want to tackle, but do not all agree on what those issues are. That's fine, and that's why there can still be many mod projects. There are some major flaws though that a simple community patch might really go a long way to fix:

 

• Stormtrooper caps - virtually every model in existence uses this, and the caps targa file is absent from the assets. This is such an easy fix it should obviously be part of any community patch that is fixing the game.
   
• Security holes - q3 engine has tons of them. Several server mods have created patches for these. Wouldn't it be easy to just patch a lot of these problems out of the box, rather than relying on mods to do it for us?
   
• Master server list - the JKHub modified server browser could just be patched into the game so that everyone can see all the servers all the time, regardless of what mod (or lack thereof) you're on.
   
• Hitboxes - this might not be something easily fixable, but wouldn't it be nice if we just patched the base game to eliminate the broken hitboxes? I'm not talking about extending the radius of ghoul2 blade detection to cover it up, either, I mean actually make the saber blade touch the hilt, actually have all the model's hitboxes register damage, etc. Phantom swings have been a plague in this game since the release, and in 10 years no one's truly fixed it.
   
• Some of those silly load errors when you aren't running as admin or end up loading the game client twice (VM Fail on Create stuff), or new crashing issues created by the Steam client. Can't we patch those out if we dig into the actual assets?

 

This is not an exhaustive list, just an example on a few things I'm sure most of us could agree would be easiest to just fix at base level with a community patch, and let mods work on top of them. Is the main reason no one wants to do this really because of legality concerns, or is everyone afraid that their precious mods will no longer work if such a thing is done, or that they will no longer have something "special" in their own mod work? If it's the latter, then you need to get more creative, honestly, and not to mention you haven't done much to fix a lot of these issues anyway because they're at the source asset level and can't easily be modded out without actually altering the assets. If it's the former, then I refer back to the beginning of my post: the game is effectively open source at this point. There is no legality to deal with. Let's fix this monster!

[minilogoguy18]

The caps images aren't missing, just open the shader file with notepad and it'll point to the images, I use them on all my models.

 

The text in the game needs fixing so that servers don't show in the list as: ☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐

[Circa]

I hope this is a bit more condescending than you meant it to sound.

[Warlock]

Not sure what you mean mini. The skin files always refer to the stormtrooper caps file and if you open the stormtrooper model folder there is no such file. You can "use them" all you like, but I have not once ever seen one of these so-called caps display. The only caps I've ever seen are from people who skin their own caps and reference that file (something I forgot to do with Ben and plan to if I make an updated release).

 

You won't see the caps, btw, unless dismemberment is on, so maybe you just aren't aware they aren't really there for most models...Regardless, that doesn't address the plethora of other bugs that could be easily be patched out of the game if even 10 people on these forums put their heads together.

 

Also, as for the condescending tone, I am simply saying that I understand why in 10 years this hasn't been done...the code was under Raven and LA lock-down. I just wonder why such a community as JKHub exists and hasn't gotten a team together since the source code release to just make a community-wide patch.

 

 

Edit: Also, yes mini, some font issues could also be patched into assets. Maybe there is a way to make it so that unicode stuff displays properly for all regions, not just your selected one?

[minilogoguy18]

The skin file doesn't point to a texture, it points to a shader, a coder might be able to better understand how exactly it works this way.

 

The shader is in /shaders/common.shader in assets1.pk3 and the 2 images it uses can be found in /textures/common/ in the assets1.pk3 as well.

 

It's pretty simple to make your own caps effect if you wanted, don't know why you would though since the shader that comes with the game does a decent job of emulating burnt flesh.

[Warlock]

I thought shaders pointed to shaders and skins pointed to textures. Excuse me for being stupid. I'll cross that one off my list, though. Doesn't change the rest...

[eezstreet]

- security holes: OpenJK fixes 'em

- master server list: OpenJK/ASE fixes this

- hitboxes: not easily fixable, the problem is and always will be lag except on MB2 which uses a broken as fuck slightly wrong algorithm to determine saber hits. And even if you fixed it, people would complain that "you changed combat drastically" or something to that effect. See: 1.00 players' arguments

- load error: fixed by OpenJK

 

so basically you want OpenJK with modified assets...

[Warlock]

No, I want a patch for the base game that fixes all that without having to layer another mod over it, actually altering the source code to fix problems rather than reverse engineering things backwards to try to fix them doubling the chances for errors.

 

Also, with the sabers: the problem isn't lag. We've tested it a hundred times, it can be repeatedly demonstrated that there are missing hitboxes, in particular the blade hitbox doesn't extend the length of the blade.

 

You are probably correct though that people would bitch. That seems to be what people in this game are good at doing. I'll definitely check out OpenJK though, sounds like you've done some work I wasn't aware of...

[MoonDog]

Er.... So you want openjk?

[minilogoguy18]

The problem with the hitbox's is that they're hitbox's, it'll never be good until there is some sort of actual collision that matches the models dimensions nearly perfect. Best solution for this would be a low resolution collision mesh for every character and say if the game doesn't see a collision mesh for said character the old fashioned hitbox will be used.

 

It could even be programmed so that the game uses the lowest LOD as the collision but on characters say without LOD's it could cause a lot of lag since it would use the high resolution model.

[Warlock]

The problem with the hitbox's is that they're hitbox's, it'll never be good until there is some sort of actual collision that matches the models dimensions nearly perfect. Best solution for this would be a low resolution collision mesh for every character and say if the game doesn't see a collision mesh for said character the old fashioned hitbox will be used.

 

lolwut?

 

No the problem is that the hitboxes are plain missing in places...i.e. the dimensions of the hitboxes themselves are faulty. There's a missing area of torso-shoulder in the player's hitboxes, and there's a missing area in the saber hitboxes.

[Warlock]

Er.... So you want openjk?

 

Hmmm...

 

 

This project does not attempt to rebalance or otherwise modify core gameplay . . . Major enhancement changes are very low priority at this time unless patches are made available and which do not alter the core functionality of gameplay or the stock renderer itself.

 

So no, I don't want OpenJK. I want a full game patch that actually digs into the game and fixes the bugs directly, for everyone, without having to run mods over mods over mods.

[Carbon]

Out of everyone here I can't believe everyone is kinda bashing this guy and acting like openJK fixes every error in the game. I actually wanted to do a little investigation, this whole talk on JKHub of 'altering assets' is bogus. After talking to a few people from RavenSoft, many of them basically said what warren is saying.

 

Direct Quote: "Lucas Arts was shut down and they released the entire source code to the community. This usually means that a company no longer cares or has the time to attend to a game. The one work around is this; if you want to use assets, just make sure everything is never up-charged. This means you may never charge people for any altercations you make to the engine or assets. If people are really afraid to edit the assets, they should simply send the support team here ((he meant at RavenSoft)) an inquiry about it. I will give you my 99.99% belief that you will not be told no. In the past people were told that if they wanted to do assets to re-make them from scratch, so I understand the concern here. Just follow what I said and you should be fine"

 

soooooo........what's going on. As a modding community I can not believe anyone here thinks that OpenJK will solve every problem in the game. It almost seems as if most of the community is content on doing what can be done with what they know, instead of going the extra mile to do everything possible. 

 

IDK. Just a skin/ent/map modder here. But yea, I think that JKHub staff should send out a request to use the assets as an entire team. That way the staff here can work on something. 

 

I mean shit, look at PhantasyStarBlueBurst. The team who made the mod only had to get permission once to completly alter the game any way they like and host their own server/master server. 

[eezstreet]

So no, I don't want OpenJK. I want a full game patch that actually digs into the game and fixes the bugs directly, for everyone, without having to run mods over mods over mods

That's not actually physically possible unless you change the engine which OpenJK does. Use the OpenJK .exe with mods and it will work just fine with other mods.

 

I think you're looking at this a bit backwards. The idea I think you're rolling with here is that patch 1.01 magically fixed all the bugs in all the mods. In fact, this is quite the opposite; mods are applied over the fixes in 1.01. The SDK wasn't released until after 1.01 was released. Likewise, in JK2, the SDK wasn't released until after 1.04 came out. This is why you don't see any mods for JKA 1.00 or JK2 1.02 (well at least you didn't used to, until the source code came out. )

 

As far as saber hitboxes are concerned, you can check the player boxes and saber boxes using cvars in OpenJK.

 

EDIT: the engine alone won't fix the master server list issue though, the mods you're running have to fix that manually, and it requires new assets to properly fix.

[MoonDog]

Out of everyone here I can't believe everyone is kinda bashing this guy and acting like openJK fixes every error in the game. I actually wanted to do a little investigation, this whole talk on JKHub of 'altering assets' is bogus. After talking to a few people from RavenSoft, many of them basically said what warren is saying.

 

Direct Quote: "Lucas Arts was shut down and they released the entire source code to the community. This usually means that a company no longer cares or has the time to attend to a game. The one work around is this; if you want to use assets, just make sure everything is never up-charged. This means you may never charge people for any altercations you make to the engine or assets. If people are really afraid to edit the assets, they should simply send the support team here ((he meant at RavenSoft)) an inquiry about it. I will give you my 99.99% belief that you will not be told no. In the past people were told that if they wanted to do assets to re-make them from scratch, so I understand the concern here. Just follow what I said and you should be fine"

 

Really? Please enlighten me as to who told you that and I'll ask them directly on Monday. 

[ensiform]

Hmmm...

 

 

So no, I don't want OpenJK. I want a full game patch that actually digs into the game and fixes the bugs directly, for everyone, without having to run mods over mods over mods.

That's exactly what OpenJK is.  The mod portion is not required by any means.

[Carbon]

Really? Please enlighten me as to who told you that and I'll ask them directly on Monday. 

 

I am not going to entertain your ego on this one. I will say, however, that this is exactly the type of attitude that I am talking about. "I know everything and more than you so don't try to act like you are on MY level". 

 

I really am waiting for a reply now "I TALKED TO THIS ONE DUDE I KNOW FROM RAVENSOFT I TALKED TO ONCE AND HE SAID UR WRONG SO STFU"

 

lol.

 

But shit, it's moondog. He MUST have talked to every single member of the ravensoft team already to derive his opinions of this topic.

[eezstreet]

Out of everyone here I can't believe everyone is kinda bashing this guy and acting like openJK fixes every error in the game. I actually wanted to do a little investigation, this whole talk on JKHub of 'altering assets' is bogus. After talking to a few people from RavenSoft, many of them basically said what warren is saying.

We aren't bashing the guy, we're simply pointing out that OpenJK is pretty much exactly what he's asking for..

 

Direct Quote: "Lucas Arts was shut down and they released the entire source code to the community. This usually means that a company no longer cares or has the time to attend to a game. The one work around is this; if you want to use assets, just make sure everything is never up-charged. This means you may never charge people for any altercations you make to the engine or assets. If people are really afraid to edit the assets, they should simply send the support team here ((he meant at RavenSoft)) an inquiry about it. I will give you my 99.99% belief that you will not be told no. In the past people were told that if they wanted to do assets to re-make them from scratch, so I understand the concern here. Just follow what I said and you should be fine"

As @@MoonDog asked, who told you this? We're talking about distribution of modified assets along with modified version of the code, which in the past was deemed illegal for stuff like ioquake3.

 

soooooo........what's going on. As a modding community I can not believe anyone here thinks that OpenJK will solve every problem in the game. It almost seems as if most of the community is content on doing what can be done with what they know, instead of going the extra mile to do everything possible.

What?

OpenJK is made by and for the community. Anyone can contribute to the code. I have (literally) no idea what you're on about.

 

IDK. Just a skin/ent/map modder here. But yea, I think that JKHub staff should send out a request to use the assets as an entire team. That way the staff here can work on something.

JKHub staff != the people that work on OpenJK

 

I mean shit, look at PhantasyStarBlueBurst. The team who made the mod only had to get permission once to completly alter the game any way they like and host their own server/master server.

Never heard of this mod.

I am not going to entertain your ego on this one. I will say, however, that this is exactly the type of attitude that I am talking about. "I know everything and more than you so don't try to act like you are on MY level". 

 

I really am waiting for a reply now "I TALKED TO THIS ONE DUDE I KNOW FROM RAVENSOFT I TALKED TO ONCE AND HE SAID UR WRONG SO STFU"

 

lol.

you do realize that MoonDog works for Raven Software, right? so I mean if he really wanted to, he could actually speak to someone...like, in person...that would resolve the issue

[Carbon]

We aren't bashing the guy, we're simply pointing out that OpenJK is pretty much exactly what he's asking for..

 

As @@MoonDog asked, who told you this? We're talking about distribution of modified assets along with modified version of the code, which in the past was deemed illegal for stuff like ioquake3.

 

What?

OpenJK is made by and for the community. Anyone can contribute to the code. I have (literally) no idea what you're on about.

 

JKHub staff != the people that work on OpenJK

 

Never heard of this mod.

you do realize that MoonDog works for Raven Software, right?

 

He actually devoleps games for them? He like sits at their HQ and works for the compny? I worked for the company that made Socom Fireteam Bravo 1 and 2, doesn't mean I knew everything about the company or their intentions. Also one of the people I talked to was from Activision, does he work for them too?

 

http://www.ravensoftware.com/careers/job-listing/ <- I could apply for 2 positions right now that I am over qualified for with my masters, doesn't mean I would say I work for Ravensoft, thats called a sub-contract :<

[ensiform]

Yes, he works in level design.

 

I still don't get what the argument here is about?  You've asked for what OpenJK has done already minus changes to the assets which we are currently honoring the EULA of the original game by not doing.

[Warlock]

That's not actually physically possible unless you change the engine which OpenJK does. Use the OpenJK .exe with mods and it will work just fine with other mods.

 

I think you're looking at this a bit backwards. The idea I think you're rolling with here is that patch 1.01 magically fixed all the bugs in all the mods. In fact, this is quite the opposite; mods are applied over the fixes in 1.01. The SDK wasn't released until after 1.01 was released. Likewise, in JK2, the SDK wasn't released until after 1.04 came out. This is why you don't see any mods for JKA 1.00 or JK2 1.02 (well at least you didn't used to, until the source code came out. )

 

As far as saber hitboxes are concerned, you can check the player boxes and saber boxes using cvars in OpenJK.

 

EDIT: the engine alone won't fix the master server list issue though, the mods you're running have to fix that manually, and it requires new assets to properly fix.

 

So I can "check" them with OpenJK? Hmm, going to have to look into that. Maybe one of my old coder friends will come up with the fix I've wanted for 10 years.

 

I'm also not thinking of it backwards. I'm well aware that releasing a community-wide patch that fixed the game would break most of the mods. However, virtually every other old modding community I know of had unofficial community patches that were released, and the other modders sure didn't seem to care that they had to update their mods to make them work again, because they were actively involved in the community patch as well and were able to begin fixing their mods to work with the new community patches before they were released. I guess this community just does it different and calls it OpenJK, which makes it confusing for us old farts because it looks like a regular old mod.

 

I still think that going in and fixing things at the asset level would be far easier and produce much faster, streamlined mods, but that's on you guys I guess. If you're afraid to go in and do it, I understand. Legality is a touchy subject. I just don't see how there's anyone to care anymore. Thank you (finally) for the logical explanation though eez, other than "so you want OpenJK."

 

Edit:  Oh god, I just saw the like 5 more posts that came in while I posted this!  I don't mean "afraid" in any negative way! Don't hurt me!    I just mean like "aversion to doing something."

[eezstreet]

He actually devoleps games for them? He like sits at their HQ and works for the compny? I worked for the company that made Socom Fireteam Bravo 1 and 2, doesn't mean I knew everything about the company or their intentions. Also one of the people I talked to was from Activision, does he work for them too?

Uhh..yeah. He actually physically works there. As a level designer. He works at Raven Software. And you said earlier that you spoke to Raven Software, so now I'm finding it a little hard to believe your story...

[minilogoguy18]

Phantasy Star Blue Burst is a game.

 

OpenJK like they have all said is a community made patch, learn to code and you too can contribute.

[eezstreet]

So I can "check" them with OpenJK? Hmm, going to have to look into that. Maybe one of my old coder friends will come up with the fix I've wanted for 10 years.

 

I'm also not thinking of it backwards. I'm well aware that releasing a community-wide patch that fixed the game would break most of the mods. However, virtually every other old modding community I know of had unofficial community patches that were released, and the other modders sure didn't seem to care that they had to update their mods to make them work again, because they were actively involved in the community patch as well and were able to begin fixing their mods to work with the new community patches before they were released. I guess this community just does it different and calls it OpenJK, which makes it confusing for us old farts because it looks like a regular old mod.

 

I still think that going in and fixing things at the asset level would be far easier and produce much faster, streamlined mods, but that's on you guys I guess. If you're afraid to go in and do it, I understand. Legality is a touchy subject. I just don't see how there's anyone to care anymore. Thank you (finally) for the logical explanation though eez, other than "so you want OpenJK."

Well, if we were to make OpenJK official, mods would have to be based on OpenJK, which in and of itself is a problem as MB2 and JA+ (specifically) have decided against the GPL license, which OpenJK uses as it's based on the original source code release. So more or less, we're already sorta making this into a community patch. It's not a matter of breaking mods or anything like that, they have to actually support the system and use the code behind it in order for the fixes to work properly. I had the monumental work of porting JKG to be based on OpenJK a few months ago (and still rolling)

[Carbon]

Yes, he works in level design.

 

I still don't get what the argument here is about?  You've asked for what OpenJK has done already minus changes to the assets which we are currently honoring the EULA of the original game by not doing.

 

He designs levels. Jesus man, he must know everything about the company :<.

 

I REALLY am not trying to come off as a huge douche here (already failed) but ravensoft is published by whom? Activision. 2/3 people I talked to were from Activision. Being a level designer for Ravensoft does not come with every know-how of what you may or not do on a game made in 2003. I would really love to see some people go out and start ASKING about this instead of saying 'NOPE I KNOW U CANT CAUSE I WORK THERE' or 'NOPE CANT BE DONE CAUSE THE ONE EMAIL I GOT SAID NO'. 

 

Who KNOWS. MAYBE Ravensoft would give the community the right to edit the assets if people bug them like people bugged LucasArts for the source code since 2003. If someone had asked LA about it and they had said one time 'no' and NOONE had ever tried again then we wouldnt have the source right now.