[JKA & JK2] Revolutionary combat system idea

[Boothand]

I'm not sure how to put this, to seperate "this would be kinda nice" from "this would be the greatest thing in the world".

 

It would be the latter. I will start this off as basic as I can.

I have an idea that seriously keeps me from falling asleep. The reason is because I believe it shouldn't be too difficult.

 

The idea, in its shortest statement, is: Having an absolute saber-collision system with some basic dynamic attack directions and equivalent block directions, controlled by the mouse. If anyone has played Mount & Blade, it will be related. On the other hand, if someone played Die by the sword long ago, it would also be related.

 

 

How it would/could work:

 

Swinging: We make a simple animation sequence going from left to right. Every animation corresponds to a cursor coordinate. Holding mouse1 and dragging left and right swings left and right, with a set speed limit. The same happens for vertical swings. Letting go of mouse1 (or not pressing it) will make the camera move as usual. When you are holding mouse1 and swinging, the camera moves at half speed or something that makes it possible to navigate while swinging the sword with the mouse. If this works, we can add more depth to it by having a zone it can move into, aside from its base-trajectories. If you ever played Die by the sword, this was totally chaotic and it was almost impossible to control the sword with excellence. So if you could have a base-path and then possibly expand it, that would have been a nice feature.

 

Blocking: Right clicking will trigger animations that also correspond to cursor coordinates. Pulling right would block a swing coming to your right. And left for left. Pulling the mouse up would block swings from above. Same deal with the camera I suppose. Attacking or blocking shouldn't make it very hard to face your opponent if he or she moves around.

 

Winning/losing: I'd want it to be close to the realistic Star Wars style (realistic in a Star Wars-sense). Attacking and blocking is no longer random since you see exactly what's happening and realize exactly what you must do. So it's fair to instantly die when you get sliced by a lightsaber, at least in the upper body area. For starters, we could increase the saber damage a lot and enable chopping.

 

 

This is the essence of it. It would of course fit into a no force setting. I would also love features like dodging hits in an accurate way. Imagine using a key + mouse movement to duck at the speed you choose or making tiny jumps and so on.

 

If anyone would be interested in trying to help me make this, I would be more excited than all the school girls at all their first days. Even just making basic basic prototypes to see if it could be realized would be great. I have yet to learn programming, so I wouldn't be able to compile much. I do understand a bit of the language though, so I wouldn't be impossible to communicate with. With some guidance I could probably try to contribute with animations and eventual visual necessities.

 

 

Anyone else out there who thinks this would be extremely cool and fun? Please let me know!

[Futuza]

JKG is what you want to play.

[Xycaleth]

Unless this is done in single player only, there are a lot of technical challenges associated with this style of controlling the saber when making it work over the Internet as you have to deal with latency. The difference is already noticeable between SP and MP with the current saber system. Blocks and sabering in SP feel more solid and responsive, whereas MP feels kind of random and a bit flimsy; and this is with predetermined animations. If you allow the players to literally draw out the path of the saber, then lag will be a major downside to your idea and it will look quite bad if done poorly.

[Asgarath83]

I like the idea of this mod. is a combat more realistic and immersive, so pratically left mouse control the attack and right mouse control the block and parade? and for saber throw? O.o

i am Sorry Xyca, i know about C++ less then you. i cannot help you to encoding thats, but i think is a very wonderful idea.

but need really a nice realizzation. In MP combat is more frenetic of SP, in MP code that's need to be coded with a lot of differerence.

O.o

[Stoiss]

Like Darthfutuza says JKG is what you are looking for, we do have the Mount of blade feeling of our Block system as our hit box size has been change alot from baseja 

we don't have pass thrue at all and it looks realy awesome when the fights is on with our without Manuel Block in over, if you do have someone who can help you it would

be possible to merge most of the system over from our code to sp saber system, without haveing the Block Point System in over

[Boothand]

Really interesting that JKG is working on something like this. Maybe I can get some suggestions over on how to do some things. I should have specified this is for MP. The reason why it's (kind of) simple is that you wouldn't have to deal with AI code, in my case.

I've never seen any real inconsistencies in saber collision in JK2 with two players with normal ping, actually. And judging by the old game Die by the sword, which also had netplay, it shouldn't be a real problem I think. It worked fine in terms of latency.

 

Mount & Blade is great, but some things about it annoy me so much. It has no dynamics in the movement, and the attacking and blocking is based on what you click, not what happens on the screen. You can't deal with two opponents since you can only hit one person per swing and the lack of movement in that game makes it almost impossible to deal with them.

 

I'm really excited to try JKG, maybe I even can involve myself in the making.

 

However, what I describe offers some very interesting (in my point of view) aspects, which I would love to see.

 

Let me explain the blocking in more detail this time  .

 

When you right click and pull the saber in a direction, you activate an animation sequence which corresponds to the mouse movement. Pulling to the side will activate a different animation sequence than pulling upwards or pulling down + a side.

 

Video with incredibly bad animations to demonstrate what I mean:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTiHmA85mlI

 

 

Attacking would be based on the same concept - holding mouse1 + free move within an animation triggered by what direction you choose.

[katanamaru]

If others are interested then I say go for it.

Personally I do not like the idea. JA's saber system feels the most natural to me compared to my fencing style.

[Boothand]

Both JK2 and JKA's saber systems mostly base itself on timing hits, using fast/slow styles, having reach and pulling off moves. Which is great. It should be played. This would be a mod for people who are dying to fight like they do in the movies, with a more risky approach, and much more reaction based. Instead of saber styles, every two opponents would have their own pace of fighting and any hit would be decisive.

 

Yeah, I hope others are interested. Or if I could get these suggestions over to the JKG community I will try that.

[Onysfx]

I personally love this idea! I thought OJP was a decent saber system but this...this is awesome. The only problem with it is movement of course. What if a player gets 90 degrees to your side? What then? The current saber system in OJP and MBII looks so glitching bad, it seems like the player isn't blocking anything at all lol.

[Boothand]

The only problem with it is movement of course. What if a player gets 90 degrees to your side? What then?

 

I guess by the time the opponent gets 90 degrees to your side, you will have released the block enough to turn towards him, or you would step out of range so that you can turn towards him. The camera moving at half speed would work in a way that lets the player turn a bit while doing hits and blocks. The "camera" is really just another word for "the player's facing direction".

[katanamaru]

Make a lock on function. You could make it to be a cone of sorts so there was a little wiggle room.

[Boothand]

Make a lock on function. You could make it to be a cone of sorts so there was a little wiggle room.

 

Yeah, actually this could go well into the system they're making at JKG. They are currently going for 8 directional triggered-by-keymove animations. Which I think is great. A little wiggle room could make it more interesting if done right.

[Asgarath83]

mmm, i have setted mouse 1 and joypad button 0 for attack and joypad button 7 and mouse 2 for saber throw.

for making a saber throw, i simply need to specity another key instead mouse 2, right, because mouse 2 with this system is used for the parries.

[Boothand]

mmm, i have setted mouse 1 and joypad button 0 for attack and joypad button 7 and mouse 2 for saber throw.

for making a saber throw, i simply need to specity another key instead mouse 2, right, because mouse 2 with this system is used for the parries.

 

Actually if this system was realized, there wouldn't be any saberthrow. It would be a gametype fit for no force. Either way, I'm one of those that think saberthrowing is unfit for Jedi knight in either case 

[Onysfx]

What stupid jedi would throw his saber during a fight? Lol. But they should still include saber throw. People may want to use it yet.

[Circa]

What stupid jedi would throw his saber during a fight? Lol. But they should still include saber throw. People may want to use it yet.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbhncw64h7mn4lt/YodaSaberThrow.mov

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/74udrc50b5gtskb/VaderSaberThrow.mov

[Asgarath83]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbhncw64h7mn4lt/YodaSaberThrow.mov

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/74udrc50b5gtskb/VaderSaberThrow.mov

Ahhahaha, Lol, some stupid Jedi, right. LOL.

no, really i love the saber throw. not remove pleaze

[Boothand]

It's a cool feature vs troopers and bots. Or if you had to pick it up like Yoda does. But in a standalone MP mod based on fencing, having saberthrowing enabled would go very much against the purpose and breed many harsh feelings, as it does currently in JK2, for example

What role it has in JKG, however, is up to the developers, as the outlooks are that I will wait for that instead. If someone is up for it though, it would still be a much embraced mod for JK2.

[Onysfx]

Lol @@Circa, I just knew you or someone else would respond like that! But no really, throwing your saber in MBII or OJP is dangerous.

[eezstreet]

I think throw is going to be a power (or a uh...secret thing that I can't really talk about). It isn't activated by right-clicking like you did before (that's now blocking mode).

But yes, the system uses 8-direction blocking and it is fairly smooth as butter. I'd compare it to JK2 with an MB2 flavor.

Essentially, you block in one of 8 directions based on movement. When an attack hits you, it depletes block points, the amount of which depends on your direction in relation to the directional buttons being held for the attack. So for instance, if you're hit with a top-down attack and you're doing a side block (by moving left/right or holding still), you lose *no* BP due to it being perfectly aligned. If you are doing a top block (by moving forward/back), you lose maximum BP due to the block not colliding well.

 

If you have insufficient BP for a block, or if you're in the middle of an attack, you will get sliced.

 

Attackers on the other hand consume FP when swinging. The more you swing, the more FP you lose. Also, the rates depend on the stance. The lower FP you have, the slower your swings become, the less damage they do, and the less BP they drain.

 

But wait, there's more!

- Swingblocks do not exist.

- Saber bounding boxes are bigger do that impacts have more weight behind them

- You can perform a fake attack by hitting the block button right at the beginning of a swing. This will start an attack that makes it look like you're coming from one direction, and then attacking in a different one.

- Attackers and defenders can both be disarmed, under different circumstances.

- Attackers and defenders can also be staggered, under different circumstances.

- Both disarms and staggers are fairly rare (around 1 in 25 duels has a disarm)

- The game is balanced so that defending and attacking are equal in terms of difficulty.

- It was developed with the mantra "Easy to learn, difficult to master."

- Duels can last anywhere from seconds to hours, and duels between experienced people tend to last far longer than duels between new players.

 

From all my experience toying around with it, I hardly ever get pissed off whenever I lose. In fact, I kinda like the experience of dying because it's like "Haha, oh shit, you got me there!" It doesn't really devolve down to people saying "WTF? HOW DID YOU DO THAT?" or whatever. I like that. I dunno. That's just my personal thoughts on the matter.

 

I have been toying with the idea of putting it in JK2 SP. I wanted to actually push my main mod ideas out though and get some artists first for other things.

[Futuza]

Also I'm going to mention that this

 

 

If you have insufficient BP for a block, or if you're in the middle of an attack, you will get sliced.

 

Provides the classic cat and mouse tactics from base jka that we all love.  This is due to the fact that people tend to block by default, and then want to attack one another, but they're scared to attack first and then get attacked in the middle of their swing.  Hence it still manages to feel like plain old base jka, while implementing all the coolness of manual blocking + other stuff.  Also, more advanced players, tend to imply increasingly different tactics the more they play, since there are so many possibilities to winning.  Back in base jka the only real way to be good was to poke, now I really feel like your strategy options are quite more open and there's a lot more room for creativity in a duel.

[Asgarath83]

Well, i like eezstreet explanation.

About the saber throw, can simply be... changed the key. is a power, right? so, as power, can be used with the same botton of every used force power. and not with the alt attack button. this can resolve the problem of saber throw

[Boothand]

First of all, all of this sounds great! I can hardly wait. Wow.

Ok a few more questions

 

 So for instance, if you're hit with a top-down attack and you're doing a side block (by moving left/right or holding still), you lose *no* BP due to it being perfectly aligned. If you are doing a top block (by moving forward/back), you lose maximum BP due to the block not colliding well.

If you have insufficient BP for a block, or if you're in the middle of an attack, you will get sliced.

Attackers on the other hand consume FP when swinging. The more you swing, the more FP you lose. Also, the rates depend on the stance. The lower FP you have, the slower your swings become, the less damage they do, and the less BP they drain.

But wait, there's more!
- Swingblocks do not exist.

 

 

 

What do you mean, a sideblock can be aligned with a top-down attack? And a top block not colliding well with a top-down attack?

 

Also, did you mean that you can't use a swing to hit away another swing? I would personally love this. Could make some interesting last second reactions if you both hit at about the same time, you could adjust your position to block the attack with your swing and save yourself.

 

The more you swing the more FP you lose - does this prevent fast paced fighting? Or is it regained with successful blocks?

[Futuza]

What do you mean, a sideblock can be aligned with a top-down attack? And a top block not colliding well with a top-down attack?

I believe that was a typo, I think he meant to say that top block perfectly blocks top attacks while failing to block side blocks (without draining bp), etc...

 

 

 

Also, did you mean that you can't use a swing to hit away another swing? I would personally love this. Could make some interesting last second reactions if you both hit at about the same time, you could adjust your position to block the attack with your swing and save yourself.

Yes.  We don't like swing blocks because if you can attack and block with the same motion, everyone just spam attacks until they get through.  Its retarded.  See MBII for an example.  Thus, you may only either attack, or block - you can't do both with the same motion.  You can switch mid-motion, but you can't do both.

 

 

 

The more you swing the more FP you lose - does this prevent fast paced fighting? Or is it regained with successful blocks?

It is regained with successful blocks, but not because blocking gains fp, simply because fp does not drain from blocking.  FP = Force Points, just standing there gets you more.  Just standing there blocking gets you more.  Also, even if you have 0 FP you can still attack, albeit slightly slower then you would normally - it is just risky to keep attacking over and over and over without taking time to defend.  In a way this forces the player to learn to attack and block tactically, instead of just spamming one or the other.  Otherwise you'll end up dead a lot.

[Boothand]

Ok, I agree with you on the swingblocks.

Thanks for clearing up! This is great. Can't wait to try this.