Mizore

18 hours ago, SaberBlade83 said:

I'm halfway through the game and so far i think it's a very good game. I think it's one of the best Star Wars games every. But i have to say that the Lightsaber combat is not as fun as in JO/JKA.

Yes, from what I've seen I agree with you. It seems a solid game but a pity that they have not been inspired by the lightsaber combat of Jedi Knight. Thanks for the comment.

Has anyone already played JFO? How does it compare to Jedi Academy / Jedi Outcast?

JA combat works well when you are fighting lightsaber wielding enemies. But JFO is set between episodes 3 and 4.(Dark Times) The time where the heroes should fight stormtroopers 99 percent of the time since Jedis and dark jedis are rare in that era.

 

-Imo JA combat isn't a good when you are fighting stormtroopers because majority of the time stormtroopers just stand in 1 place and shoot.

Why they just stand and shoot ? That's because if they had more movements getting them would have been too annoying.(Then you would have stormtroopers keep firing at you while running backwards which would look stupid.)

 

-Also button mashing lightsaber combat(Which was in Episode 1 & 3 games and TFU 1&2) works better when fighting stormtroopers in Jedi Action games:

 

1.You don't have to aim your blows to actually hit enemies. When you are in range, the playable character can blow the attack without any problem.(In JA sometimes attacking a standing stormtrooper is a little annoying since you just want to cut them like butter and your attacks may not hit them.)

2.Button mashing lightsaber combat also has faster attacks which is an advantage.(In JA there were some times when the stormtroopers instantly killed me for firing at the same time that I pressed the attack button.)

I agree, but I would make the story suit the gameplay, not the other way around, so if the funniest thing is the combat between lightsaber wielders, then I would choose a period where the lightsaber wielders are very common. It is that if I have to choose between the combat between lightsaber wielders of Jedi Academy or the combat between a lightsaber wielder and gunners of The Force Unleashed, I prefer the former, although the ideal would be both.

BTW those people that are just calling this game's lightsaber combat awful remind me of those OT fans that love to hate every SW thing that came after 1983.(But at least they are better than those other guys that wanted to play as a Hutt instead of a white male human.)

I don't think it's bad, but I wanted them to based on Jedi Academy lightsaber combat. But it seems that Jedi Academy is already too old unfortunately.

Have you played wii version of TFU 2 ? That one is the only TFU game where you have force sense.

 

Forse sense in that is used to :

1-solve some puzzles(similar to JA)

2-see those invisible enemies(terror troopers they were called I think)

 

Force sense in TFU 2 has better effects than the sense in JA.(you kinda see the environments like that character Visas from Kotor 2)

 

Force speed in TFU was replaced by Dash. Dash is poor for fast running since you have to mash the dash button repeatedly but I like the way that you can force push enemies via dash+push.(which is recommended on snipers)

I have not played the wii version of TFU 2, thanks for the information.

About dash, it would be interesting that dash did not replace super speed, something like Quantum Break.

Heal:

Force heal in JA is similar to having a longer regenerating HP than COD games. 

 

Grip: 

You have to break the camera in order to to smash an enemy to the ground.

 

Lightning:

It's true that level 1 and 2 are useless. Another problem of lightning imo is this that it won't stun the enemies. It also has this problem that level 3 is too op that makes stormtroopers too easy.

 

Force Drain:

It has this problem that you can't grab drain lightsaber weilding enemies.(Since they just push you instantly)

 

Imo Force Unleashed did force powers far superior than JA and JK 2. In TFU you will gain HP by killing enemies, Force grip is more fun to use , lightning is useful in weaker levels(You can stun enemies) and isn't op.

I agree that the powers of TFU are superior to JA and JO, but I dislike that TFU lacks of Force sense or Force speed. I also don't like that the only way to heal you is by killing enemies, since suppose you are facing a single boss; The boss is formidable and you need to heal more than ever, but you can't do it because there are no other enemies out there. Of course TFU solves it by adding weak enemies to the battlefield, but I feel they give me medikits instead of boss reinforcements.

About lightning, I agree that it should be able to stun some enemies. Although it doesn't bother me at level three, you can easily kill stormtroopers; they are supposed to be cannon fodder.  What bothers me is that lightning cannot be used as sniper attack; natural lightning normally travel several kilometers.

On drain, it doesn't bother me that you can't use it in Force users, but it bothers me that they can use it on you if they get you with little Force energy. I would put drain against non Force users and injured Force users.

I'm re-playing Survival mod 2: Revenge Of The Droids for Jedi Academy and I thought that the Force powers of Jedi Academy (same with Jedi Outcast) are not very cool or spectacular. It is only my opinion and I also think that better with these powers than without them, but there goes this reflection.

Force jump is essential, but I think the jump would have to be faster and add more parkour elements such as clinging to edges or even flying. It might also be good for Force jump to have its own cooldown, independent of the other powers, so that you are not totally helpless.

Force speed could be very good. Bullet time is usually a skill that I would like to include in almost every game, but in Jedi Academy it doesn't give me a great sense of speed. You also cannot regulate the time you spend in this hyperkinetic state. Also no enemy will activate that power without you having activated it before and probably a Force user will kill you by also using this ability without you knowing what has happened. I also miss more speed of the protagonist permanently and something like dash, which is basic in many hack and slash games.

Force sense is very useful, but I feel that it is not fully exploited. I miss more solvable puzzles with Force sense, night vision, invisible enemies except with Force sense, or enemies that detect you if you activate Force sense. I also think that a passive variant of Force sense would be good, something that tells you that something is not going well but without giving details, because otherwise, what reason does the Jedi have to use Force sense in the first place?

Force push and Force pull are useful but in very specific situations, let's say they are too niche and I don't see them spectacular. Force push does not allow you to easily reject missiles, as you have to wait a brief moment between each push. And even more difficult is to reject shots from the concussion rifle, which will probably require Force speed, but in turn this requires normal player reflexes. Force pull is very useful at level three to disarm enemies, but what about enemies that grip their weapons very strongly? To disarm a group of enemies, a telekinetic field that overrides any mechanism within its range of action would be preferable. The lightsabers would not be affected because they are shielded by their wielders. Of course, this would make obsolete the ability to deflect projectiles with the lightsaber, but I would leave this skill for the apprentices and that telekinetic field for the masters.

Force heal, Force protect and Force absorb are very useful, but they are examples of something practical but not very cool. In my opinion, the practical but not very cool must be passive, while the practical and cool must be active: replace Force heal with self-regenerative health, Force protect with Force imbued armor and Force absorb with some minigame. Of course, health would regenerate slowly and the enemies would have to be very aggressive so that the fighting is not too easy. Also, as in many other games, it would be nice to be able to permanently increase your health. Some Force users of Jedi Academy have more health than you. This is usually implemented to compensate poor AI, but with enemies that have special powers and usually outnumber us, I think it would be worth it that the protagonist's health could be permanently increased. Force protect acts as armor, I think that it is better that it is directly a imbued armor, whose appearance could be customized and the fact of being imbued would allow degrees of hardness and that it can be repaired by the wearer. Force absorb could be passive against minor telekinetic threats and active against major telekinetic threats, something like a minigame.

I also feel that mental trick is not fully exploited, because in single player there are no enemies that can use it against you and other possibilities are not explored such as adopting the appearance of an enemy or change your keybinding temporarily under an enemy's mind trick. In addition, the possibility of using mind trick outside combat, in dialogues, is not explored.

Force rage can be overpowered if you can kill the boss before it runs out, and then you heal. For this reason it would be better to activate only if some condition is met, not at will.

Force lightning is only useful at level three, but against non Force users, which are not the most dangerous enemies. Against the most dangerous enemies, that is, certain Force users, lightning is useless. Besides the sound of Force lightning does not impose on me; it would have to have two variants: punctual, like the lightning of the storms, causing a terrible sound and a great reach, and the lightning you can throw in the game.

Force grip can be fun to throw non Force users through chasms, but for those there are many ways to kill them. The most threatening enemies are probably immune to Force grip. Also remember that Force grip is rather a deterrent power in its origins and does not seem spectacular, it is not as if you tear apart someone's head, which should be a separate power, or cut someone telekinetically. I would also add a telekinesis variant to grab beings, whether alive or inert, without harming them, both for purposes in combat and to solve puzzles.

Force drain does not seem spectacular or too useful. I think Force heal is preferable, but if we follow that path, I would make Force drain more brutal and visceral, something vampiric, tearing flesh and feeding on enemies, which for some reason the darksiders are considered the incarnations of evil.

I do not consider that Force throw, Force attack and Force defense to be powers, but skills, which can be practiced if you have a lightsaber. Even so, I don't feel Force throw is spectacular, the lightsaber would have to move faster and turn on itself and go further. You should also be able to learn to capture lightsabers that enemies throw at you and to being able to pick up the lightsabers of defeated enemies. Force attack and Force defense would merge them with different fighting styles with lightsaber, each with different degrees of mastery.

Well, what do you think?

I think if you go into it not expecting it to be a new Jedi Knight game with similar combat, you'll enjoy it. Unless you're one of those that instantly hates anything Star Wars created after 2005.

I do not expect a Jedi Knight combat, but I would like it, because it is still one of the best melee combat systems to date.

Wouldn't the same apply to real life riot police and their use of batons instead of long range non-lethal weapons? My guess is that those stormtroopers are to quell any civilian uprising instead of to fight against terrorists.

But then they would have to flee, since it is not sensible to face a Jedi with that gear and not being a Force user.

It's OK. but i'd like to see some Lightsaber vs Lightsaber combat.

There are already melee enemies. I think it would not change much if they carried lightsabers instead, because the game is not going to capture what makes lightsaber special, that is, great cutting power.

Imo combat of Jedi Knight is only great for lightsaber vs lightsaber but it doesn't work that well for lightsaber vs guns.(Since anyone that tries to run and gun will be too hard to hit with lightsaber. maybe that's why stormtroopers in JA will just stand and shoot most of the time.)

 

Since Jedi Fallen Order similar to TFU has far more lightsaber vs guns combat than lightsaber vs lightsaber(Since it's in dark times era) I think they made the right choice of not using JK 2 and JA combat for it.

But in the video there are still a lot of melee enemies, even though they do not have lightsabers, so I still think they should have been inspired by Jedi Academy lightsaber combat.

On the other hand, I do not understand how there are so many stormtroopers with melee weapons; if I were one stormtrooper, I would put as much distance as possible between me and the enemy and try to attack with ambushes and at a distance. Of course, the same could be said of the protagonist.

For open world, I would like to have a GTA style bounty hunter game. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible due to Disney.Since Disney doesn't want a SW game where kids can go around and kill everyone.

I think that's because:

 

1.Jedi Academy wasn't really that successful. (Even episode 3 game was more successful than JA.) 

 

2.And JA combat doesn't works well for consoles due to controllers.(Consoles are the main platform of games these days for selling far more copies than PC) 

 

But there is still some JK inspirations in this game though.(Slowing down time, force pulling)

1. True, but they could have inspired by the combat of the Jedi Knight games. 

2. I have not played it on Xbox, but I've read in these forums that Jedi Academy plays pretty well with controller in Xbox. And although the Jedi Knight go against that modern tendency to design combat for controller, there are modern games that are handled better with keyboard and mouse, like Prey of Arkane, but I recognize that it is an exception.

About the slow down time, I see it inspired more in what Kylo does in The Force Awakens.

BTW in force power sections some FPs have different names. May anyone post some description of each variable ? 

FP_HEAL                   Heal

FP_LEVITATION        Jump

FP_SPEED                Speed

FP_PUSH                  Push

FP_PULL                   Pull

FP_TELEPATHY       Mind trick

FP_GRIP                   Grip

FP_LIGHTNING        Lighning

FP_SABERTHROW  Saber throw

FP_RAGE                 Rage

FP_PROTECT          Protect

FP_ABSORB            Absorb

FP_DRAIN                Drain

FP_SEE                    Sense

It's like the concept of "open world" doesn't exist for Star Wars and I have no idea why. 

The open world games are very expensive and although they have the resources to do something like it, I think they do not want to spend more because only for being Star Wars, they hope to sell a lot.

I want to replicate everything the movies made possible, dismemberment included. 

 

I agree, a dismemberment system like in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. But do not be as fragile as in the movies, because otherwise the fights would be too short, easy or difficult. And Star Wars does not lack justifications for a high toughness; cortosis armor, armor imbued in the Force, etc.

It seems good to me, but not as fabulous as it could be. I find it quite generic, although I think I will like it because it is a single player game in the third person with melee combat and special powers. (I also wait for Control from Remedy, whose charm for me is greater). But for me it is a pity that having the lightsaber combat system from Jedi Academy, they have not been inspired by that.

In single player, the dual lightsabers are superior to the staff in defense, but inferior in attack. In general, the duals are better against gunners because they deflect better the blaster shots, but they are worse against saber wielders. In addition duals have other advantages: if you throw a saber, you do not stay unarmed, and if you are in a lock saber with an enemy, you can throw a saber to kill her / him instantly. 

I still consider that the Star Wars brand is a drag on the Jedi Knight games: if Raven had never made Jedi Outcast and instead made a new IP about individuals with psychic abilities and hard light swords in a space age, then I think it would have been more successful and would not have to compete with other Star Wars games like KOTOR or copyright issues with EA and Disney.

https://www.moddb.com/mods/jedi-outcast-academy/downloads/joa-v3-full-version

I would have liked that Jedi Academy had served to inspire others and adopt its combat system, but without being based on Star Wars, such as Devil May Cry at its era served to inspire so many hack and slash for consoles.

And about The Force Unleashed, I prefer the Jedi Knight games, but the Force powers seem to me better done in The Force Unleashed; It is clear that they focused on the physics and the Force powers, leaving aside the lightsaber combat.

Then you can get a permanent force speed mod, and you can move like a blur all the time.

 

We'll just stick to what we're used to, not the fastest, but to me, way more fun then "super-fast" would be.

 

As for the blasters, they're always that slow regardless of what novel or comic book you're reading. It may irk you, but thats just how it is.

Yes, but you will recognize that this slowness does not resist an analysis in detail, besides that there are comics where Jedi reject and dodge slugs, which are equivalent to bullets.

You'd eliminate the style I primarily use.

 

Also, we've been over this whole Jedi Academy vs Metal Gear Rising thing, let's not do it again, lol.

 

They did do Jedi Academy with much faster speed, it's called "Blade Symphony". It's cool but I still prefer the methodical approach of Jedi Academy.

 

We don't want blur-moving Jedi in a gaming medium, we just want it to look like it does in the movies, and shows, and this is the closest it's ever gotten to that, sometimes it's even better and more exhilarating then watching Obi-Wan vs Maul. There's alot that goes into the COMBAT of this game that other games don't have, I prefer the combat in this game because of the unpredictability of it, you're so close to death with every strike.

 

It's like, for example, let's bring this up for a second, do you want Toukiden, Soul Sacrifice, Gods Eater Burst, just because they're much faster and look a lot cooler, or do you want Monster Hunter? (Though to be fair Gods Eater Burst was incredibly fun)

 

Maybe I'm wrong but most people would prefer Monster Hunter, which is a much much slower game with not as much visual flare, but it's just more FUN to play, people will play Toukiden for like, a few hours, but people keep coming back to Monster Hunter for years.

 

You see the difference?

 

The styles are representative of stances, you can't just elminate everything in favor of speed, because star wars isn't like that in the first place, people with stronger styles often beat people who were way faster, because they know how to use their strength. Vader isn't slow by any means, but by applying his skill and strength, he could overcome much faster opponents who were much younger then him, and easily, at that. Strength matters in the star wars setting, it's not just some useless stat like in most fictional universes where the big brute gets his ass kicked.

 

Blasters, even in-lore, aren't faster then our rl guns.

But you do not speak for all; It's fine that you want the red style, but I want Force users to move like blur, because in the combat it is usually the fastest who wins, taking into account the characteristics of the lightsaber and that the Jedi live in a world where projectile weapons are extended. Jedi Academy is a game, it does not have to imitate the movies, and the old trilogy was limited by aspects that do not apply to games, such as the special effects and the age of the actors.

On Blade Symphony and the other games, I have not played them; I prefer a game more focused on the story.

As the strong wins the fast, it does not make sense to separate strength and speed: the stronger you hit, the faster you hit, and vice versa. If Vader wins with his slowness is for plot reasons, but if he was more credible, or moves as a blur or he would be dead.

About the slowness of the blasters, that's something I never liked; It seems silly to me that in a world supposedly more advanced than the real world, it has slower weapons than ours. It can also be argued that the blasters seem slow for the public to see them, when in lore they are as fast as bullets and the Jedi move as blur.

I agree, I would take the Jedi Academy / Jedi Outcast combat system but with some changes:

1) I would eliminate the red style, because given the characteristics of the lightsaber, it would be necessary to bet for the speed, nobody reasonable would reduce the speed when hit with the lightsaber.

2) Three styles available at any time: single, duals and staff. The single would be ideal against one lightsaber wielder. The duals would be suitable against gunners and the staff or duals together would be suitable against several melee enemies.

3) Manual button to block at the right time, both for melee attacks and range attacks.

4) Greater speed for combat, think of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance: I am not in favor of reducing speed to resemble the old trilogy: if Darth Vader and Obi Wan move slowly, it is because the actors were older but that does not fit in a game. Besides Star Wars technology is advanced, automatic and projectile weapons at high speed are generalized and the Jedi can increase their attributes with the Force, they should move like blur in battlefield.

For me better lightsaber combat in some way was better in JK2. I like the stuff that Jk3 put in the game but most of the attacks are useless and they are more flashing rotating saber around without reason. Only jump attacks and w+c+mouse 1 for dual and staff works great.

 

But why i think Jedi Outcast was in some better? Combat was harder and enemies have better defense. It was harder because animation spamming doesnt work for red style. Not hiting your enemy with these attacks is huge risk. The same goes with other sabers.

 

In Jk3? There are plenty bugs in animation and it requires more spamming... and also there are some bullshit animations for enemies - reborn is laying on the floor. I use roll and want to stab (Because the animation of finishing stabbing enemy is trying to get up faster or evade attack by rolling on the floor ). What happens when i try to roll stab? He just roll to the left or to the right. And i am like - NANI!? But not his laying animation. He made the left or right roll animation like he was crouching.

 

But i love combat in Jedi Academy... even if it has flaws.

But it should have better saber defense mechanic and also less spamming animations.

What you comment I think are small details; my idea was not to compare Jedi Academy with Jedi Outcast, but to discuss whether the Jedi Academy / Jedi Outcast combat would be a good basis for the new game Jedi: Fallen Order.

Cthulhu can be killed by a ship. A dog can defeat the son of Yog-sotos.

So the jedi maybe win the cthulhu but not Azatoth.

Cthulhu was stopped by a ship, but not killed.