Rig a ported model

[Futuza]

Seems like an honour system even for file creations/uploads but the problem here is if some people and even some files on here are from ported sources, what is the integraty and honour of those that approve/upload that content.  I think it's safe to say people who port content are probably well aware of it so this again ties into, people should just be honest if the content is ported or not.  Whatever ported content is, not sure of how much truly is cause I don't have the energy to look at every single file, truly even on here should we literally just purge it all, even if it is something as simple as a sound file?  Or a possible texture, or even a literally pen sized mesh on a map?

Of course it is an honor system, it wouldn't work any other way.  Youtube is an honor system (sort of, it has a bit of technological micromanaging police force built in), they can't have a staff member check every single video that gets uploaded for copyright validity.  Of course people should be honest.  That's all fine and dandy to preach philosophy about how everyone should be honest (and they should!), but in a practical world you have to admit that everyone is not always honest.  There are dishonest people.  And as such the need for copyright laws.  The problem with copyright laws?  They're out of date, they take too long to adapt and change to new emerging technology and ideas.  They're too complicated.  They don't cover what's right or wrong and are often written at the diction of large powerful media corporations who care more about making money then appropriating credit to original artists/credits.

 

From a practicality point of view no one cares if you port models, sounds, maps, etc.. for your own personal use.  If no one else see's it, no one knows it happens and no one makes a fuss.  If you start publishing it though and trying to distribute it to others you'll find yourself in the realm of the criminal.  People will put up entire movies on youtube and then put up a brief description that says something like, "THIS IS NOT MINE.  NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT INTENDED.  SUPPORT THE ORIGINAL CREATORS."  And then cite the fair use clause or something like that as if that were sufficient to excuse themselves from breaking copyright laws/stealing ad revenue off of someone else's work. 

 

Additionally look at it from the perspective of the creator in varying situations:

1) They see that you made some fan art of your book, they are happy.

2) They see that you copied your book and are selling pdf's for $5 on the web.  They are sad and are losing money from lost potential revenue.

3) They see that you are claiming they painted your oil artwork and pretending they are the originator.  They are furious.

4) They claim to be associated with your company and are pretending to be an official retailer/representative of your company and are selling cheap knock off productss that make your entire company look bad and tarnish your good name.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you are doing anything other then some variation of 1, you are doing it wrong and should feel sorry.  Anyway there's my opinion on it.

[Oobah]

Of course it is an honor system, it wouldn't work any other way.  Youtube is an honor system (sort of, it has a bit of technological micromanaging police force built in), they can't have a staff member check every single video that gets uploaded for copyright validity.  Of course people should be honest.  That's all fine and dandy to preach philosophy about how everyone should be honest (and they should!), but in a practical world you have to admit that everyone is not always honest.  There are dishonest people.  And as such the need for copyright laws.  The problem with copyright laws?  They're out of date, they take too long to adapt and change to new emerging technology and ideas.  They're too complicated.  They don't cover what's right or wrong and are often written at the diction of large powerful media corporations who care more about making money then appropriating credit to original artists/credits.

 

From a practicality point of view no one cares if you port models, sounds, maps, etc.. for your own personal use.  If no one else see's it, no one knows it happens and no one makes a fuss.  If you start publishing it though and trying to distribute it to others you'll find yourself in the realm of the criminal.  People will put up entire movies on youtube and then put up a brief description that says something like, "THIS IS NOT MINE.  NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT INTENDED.  SUPPORT THE ORIGINAL CREATORS."  And then cite the fair use clause or something like that as if that were sufficient to excuse themselves from breaking copyright laws/stealing ad revenue off of someone else's work. 

 

Additionally look at it from the perspective of the creator in varying situations:

1) They see that you made some fan art of your book, they are happy.

2) They see that you copied your book and are selling pdf's for $5 on the web.  They are sad and are losing money from lost potential revenue.

3) They see that you are claiming they painted your oil artwork and pretending they are the originator.  They are furious.

4) They claim to be associated with your company and are pretending to be an official retailer/representative of your company and are selling cheap knock off productss that make your entire company look bad and tarnish your good name.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you are doing anything other then some variation of 1, you are doing it wrong and should feel sorry.  Anyway there's my opinion on it.

 

I only know how I feel in relation to how I treat myself and how I hope others are in relation to me in regards to treating me how I treat them.  I'm sure even people we might consider dishonest, in there minds they're honest.  All comes down to a mixture of how much you convey and how you convey it.  Sometimes things simply aren't accepted purely on the grounds that it registers in a persons brain aka might of overlooked something you said or they may feel from a big long wall of text you're being showbooty or your full of it or you still got something to hide and so forth.  Single person alone can't be blamed or held responsible souly for the production of even ported content, person who downloads it obviously wants it for whatever reason.  Not to mention the person who even ported the content got there information from other people, now mind you the information the people with knoweldge before them put out is general it's not meant to purposley aid people to be all goody toe shoes or all mean evil knife in the back people.  No one can truly calculate the effect any information they put out will have.

 

For example:

Considering the ported kotor models pack I found simply by googling has been out 4+ years for anyone to download/use, ported ones in a large pack mind you as well as MBII having plenty of other peoples content and what have you.  Could say it is criminal?  Yes you can say ported content is criminal about as much as not buying a 25 cent pack of gum or a 1 dollar bag of candy.  But again, to be honest, JA is a very small community.  Even from a business/company stand point they wouldn't get anything out of jkhub and there is bigger names they could go after/sites for hosting said content which none of them have.  JKhub is just a jk2files 2.0 in regards to rules.  Hell even clans/communities in game still have rules that date back to probably even Dark Forces 2.

 

Easy to blame big entities/corporations.  But those are still made up of people, just like a small place here is still made up of people.  If you blame a corporation itself, faceless entity, you are also blaming everyone who also is apart of that company.  Not everyone at a corporation is a vampire or a ghoul who wants to raid your fridge.  People in a small scale community can't even agree all the time, I doubt a huger more larger entity is doing really any better.  Hell even in a company you still got your drama queens, admins of sorts, high school attitudes, cool kids clubs, etc.  Greed is a poor excuse simply because people even who aren't in corporations can be just as self serving and greedy, it is not simply blame the obvious thing for all problems and say that it is.  It's like the 99% germ thing on a bottle, always that 1%.  People might think that 1 might be really smart but what if it was just really stupid or dumb luck?  It's purely randomness and a variable, life is full of those, even trying to stay middle of the road can drive you as crazy as taking sides and absolutes.  No one is really immune to simple human fault.

 

Ad revenue is garbage anyway and fair use can be used even for ported content in JA, sure people even use it for ported content into even kotor or even hapslashes models into other games.  But a company can still tell you no, don't use it even with fair use.  Fair ues far as I see it is still a thin veil or fine line and mind you videos on youtube that are considered fair use, you are getting a picture image you interact with via just looking at it.  Don't manipulate it, minus stop start drag the bar volumne etc, where as with say JK when you rig up a ported model you can bend and twist it a bit more aka got more hands on control with it.  So to me it's more like people want an image of something like an iconic character and perhaps for some they simply feel better about using something without having a sense of it's from another game and with it being from another game it's breaking the law and it's going to create massive anarchy or something silly like that.  I simply view it in the fact that we've had ported content for years inspite of jk2files, now jkhub, can take a firm stance on it.  That's perfectly fine, they can be against it in every way shape and form.  But you can't think or feel that because you bring down a ban hammer on it here that magically all things here are going to carry out into every corner of the community.  The honesty part of the rules only work if people choose to abide by them and or live up to them and it's obvious not everyone wants to do that.

 

No real point in trying to convert people to act, think, talk, walk, and be just like you on really anything.  All you do is have people create walls and we have, for example, a ton of servers in game and a few still have the laming rule.  Is that rule exactly the same on each server and place you go to?  I've seen similar enforcements but variations of it from place to place, it's a matter of interpretation and considering not everyone can find common ground on certain things we basically just end up with more confusion than anything else.

 

Is there a point to the laming rule anymore considering anyone who still plays most likely knows of it already?  It's simply basis of if you don't wanna be lamed, talked down to, treated like dirt.  You don't go around projecting that back onto others.  What comes around goes around as they say.

 

I think we're in agreeance with the fact that anything that borders on money for an open ended game with free creative control, more or less, for JK seems to dirty up the water and make it very muddy/murky aka very obvious it is no longer about whatever drives you to do it but self gratification whether that is monetary or a big boost to your brain.  KOTF is still a good example of that, and I think what some people need to realize not everyone is trying to make a name for themselves off other peoples content, some people like to see reinterpretations and seeing old creations given new life.  Not to mention you can still get a vast majority of the original content still you have no real obligation to use any new stuff people put out.  You have that choice, even sometimes new content or ported content can inspire people to create new and fresh content all on there own to not only test themselves but to give something to the community from the ground up.  Not everything done by people has to be a catastrophe provided the person is honest about things.  I mean what is honestly the worst that happens if you go to another website and see a ported texture or even model from your own personal perspective?  You can say no and leave the website or you can download it and tinker it and look at it and so forth.

 

Honestly, a good portion of avatars aka character models do border in some way on barbie dolls.  In a silly way it's a lot like everyone is arguing over there ken doll having better plastic or more real eyes or they made theres from real oak tree and wood and painted it all up and such and they have more of a say on what a barbie doll is over others.  But what people gotta remember is, even with childhood action figures, how many kids made there own vs. how many bought them or there parents bought them for them.  Hell I made a literal toy out of a block of wood and nailed in appendages that couldn't move and I was happy playing with that as a child.  So what if my creative levels aren't as articulate as some people.  Does that make my level of imagination any less or weaker cause I can't bring something to life on the same level as other people?  Absolutely not.

 

Barbie dolls?  EWW THAT'S FOR GIIIILRS.  What would photoshop alterations and custom additions to models be?  You're stlyzing your doll.

 

Jedi Knight games are adult toys, and people spend more time fighting over how one kid has body armour to protect from your bullets and the other kid says no and how his dad works on a military base and he has armour piercing bullets and his bulletproof armour can't take the impact of these special militar bullets, basically more fighting over who wants to play what or be what instead of more people sharing there toys.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Oobah

[Futuza]

  ...where are you even trying to go with that?  Aside from that, this thread is a terrible place to have a philosophical discussion about copyright.  Make a new thread in the appropriate place if that's what you want to talk about.

[Cerez]

I understand your feelings on this, but please take my advice, @-Tulak_Hord- and @@Oobah, it's not worth the long discussion and bitterness. We've been through this a million times on these forums, and the general, practical effect comes down to this:

 

Everything that is ported work is done privately, without open community involvement -- and most of the time you'll need to do this yourself. There is not enough manpower and interest/willingness around to take care of port requests. There is not even enough for full-scale, "legitimate" model design requests.

 

However, there is plenty of friendly support in the community to help you learn aspects of modding, modelling, texturing, and coding yourself. While I know this doesn't offer immediate satisfaction, it's the only thing we have that works. If you want to get this model working in-game, you'll need to start learning the nuts and bolts of modelling yourself, and then perhaps seek help from a more experienced modeller to guide you in your efforts, or help you out. It may take a while, but eventually you'll get there, and it will open new possibilities for you to experiment with the game you like, and expand on the experience.

 

You'll see that modelling is not a simple task, either. It takes a lot of time and effort to get even the simplest model in-game. It took me a while to learn that, too. Simple porting is not nearly as simple as it sounds.

 

I wish you good luck and courage to follow your wishes and dreams. I hope you'll join the community as an active creative member. Be patient and don't try to change things -- just accept them as they are. I've learned the hard way that some things have long histories and reasons for being so in a community. And this is a special community with its own rules and etiquette. It's a friendly and productive community, but everyone needs to take an active part, and no-one is here to serve the other. We are all creatively active in our own work. We welcome you to take part in this with your own projects.

 

I hope this helps to understand how things are working around here, and helps to avoid any misunderstandings.

[eezstreet]

My point about you being passive-aggressive is cumulative, not just from that thread, but the fact that you were making readmes with files that had stuff like "readmes are stupid," or "I'm only doing this because I have to" or filling them full of snarky comments. The whole point of a readme is to clearly state to the end-user what the file does, the name of it, who made it, what the permissions regarding remirroring it, etc. I can't fault you for not wanting to do them- they feel like a bit of a drag sometimes, but they're very important. When you act in the fashion you have towards this, it's a blatant disregard for our rules and an insult towards our staff, policies and procedures. So. There's that.

 

Another element is that you've decided to call me out specifically in another thread instead of talking about it with me in private. You've mentioned talking about this with an admin -- who? I tried to message you several times and all you did was delete messages and otherwise ignore me. Or avoid me. Starting to see what I mean here with the passive aggressive behavior?

 

As Xycaleth put it, we try and monitor content that's brought in, and we check against other modders' work being uploaded, not just game companies. We can't be right 100% of the time. Some stuff falls through the cracks. We're human. It's not that we don't want to host your content, it's that putting content up that's so blatantly ported puts us as negligent, when really we can't be the ones to assume responsibility if you're breaking copyright laws. Especially when it comes to anything BioWare or Bethesda, as those two are incredibly notorious for being sue-crazy. The porting policy was put on JK2Files because they received a Cease & Desist from BioWare ("Take down all the ported content, or else") about KOTOR ports.

 

I understand that hard work can go into making a port. I am most certainly not discounting anyone's ability at anything because they port models, because this simply doesn't make any sense. JKHub is not the place to host ports. Mirror those on your own, because we wont take them. The whole reason I locked your previous thread is because you posted a thread telling people to PM you, and not to have a conversation. Golden rule: Don't be a dick. Saying that other peoples opinions aren't welcome or wanted is not the friendly attitude that we're looking for.

 

As for other people in this thread, saying "tl;dr" or "who cares?" is not needed nor wanted. If you've got nothing to say, say nothing. Othervise, move along.

[Cerez]

Oh yes, publicly distributing a ported model you don't own on a website is a serious legal breach that could jeopardise this whole website very quickly. If you see this kind of thing being done elsewhere, not for private use, but as a public distribution, then that website is playing with dangerous fire. If you by chance see it done on JKHub, report it to the staff, so they can value up the risk and decide on the best course of action. 

 

If you make such a port, keep it to yourself, or share it only with your closest friends, hosted privately. Don't put the whole community in jeopardy by trying to publish it publicly on the site.

 

You can use Dropbox to host your private files. Just open a free account with them: https://www.dropbox.com/

[Tulak Hord]

I didn't want to generate such a huge argue/ fight about porting like this.

Sorry for that! :S

[Cerez]

No worries. Hope it helps to see things clearer, for everyone. There's really no point for us to argue over these things anymore. Certain things have their way that's practically proven to be best over time. Copyright, especially in fan art, is a complicated issue all around the world, but as long as we keep with certain common sense, we should be fine. And let's leave the site rules and moderation to the decision of the staff. Among each other we can always share files privately, host, and create whatever we like. A community is more than just a site.

[Tulak Hord]

Yes, Cerez, a community is more than a site.

But i wouldn't like to something else just this model in jka. :$ but how this seems to me is no one will do it. :S I'm not crying just i really hoped someone will do it.

[Cerez]

Get the tools out and start tinkering yourself. It's worth it! It's quite fun, actually. And it makes you feel more able.

 

I know exactly how you feel. I've been in your shoes not too long ago. You can't have it made for you, unfortunately. Gotta work for it.

 

And I'm sure you'll find help along the way. But get things started on your own first. Put a little effort into it. 

[Tulak Hord]

Cerez, you've right! I'll do it! I think I can solve this "problem"! And if i can't do it with the ported model, then i'll make my own Tulak Hord model.

[Cerez]

Cerez, you've right! I'll do it! I think I can solve this "problem"! And if i can't do it with the ported model, then i'll make my own Tulak Hord model.

 

That's the spirit! Be sure to ask for help in the Modding Assistance section of the forums if you really get stuck.

[Langerd]

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much of text here O_O damn... I will listen to everybody and I will tell all new modders that i will meet in future to check the rules on this site.

 

Hope this kinda situation will never happen again.

[Daedra]

Like eezstreet said as long as there is a significant change to the ported content, this could be new textures, sounds etc, then it should be fine but then there is always still a risk -- just a diluted reduced risk than straight up posting ported content with no changes at all. It can be argued how much change a port should have to be accepted here, however I believe the rules need a second glance, take another look over it and make sure everything is appropriate.