The Ethics of Paying for Models

[Inyri]

Why won't it never occur? You don't know that it won't ever occur. I could offer a job where I pay you $600 for each model (just using that as a baseline) tomorrow, and you mean to tell me that you wouldn't feel any bit wrong about modelling for JKA for cash? And for the record, I'm referring to a full PK3 and everything, all packed up nice, rigged, tagged for the game, all the amenities there.

You'd have to pay in advance or I'd never agree to it

 

And if you seriously think this scenario would ever happen, you need to get out and figure out how the world works. Also, you'd have to pay more than $600 per model, assuming I could pump one out every week that you would reliably pay for (which wouldn't happen) and then I'd still have to be able to afford health insurance, which would probably tack on another 50-100 dollars if I had to pay for that out of pocket. Major medical insurance is a bitch.

 

So yeah, not plausible. This whole conversation is kind of ridiculous, to be honest.

[eezstreet]

That's why I said he could get his model made then the part of getting it in the game will be solely on him, he wont be paying for a mod, he'll be paying for a model.

?

So...you're agreeing with my sentiment then? I'm confused as to what your position is.

 

Probably because there isn't much market for paid commissions for coding work.

Yes, clearly. Money makes the world go round, etc.

 

You'd have to pay in advance or I'd never agree to it

Most carpenters make people pay after the work is done. Which is ironic, since modelers don't pay for materials like carpenters do.

Besides, what will you have lost if you didn't get paid? If we're talking about a carpenter again here, you're talking about wood and time, as well as space in their shop, and if they want to get rid of the piece and recuperate any of their losses, they have to go through the time to get the thing sold. Heck, modellers in my mind gain something from making models, since at the very least that can be a portfolio piece.

 

And if you seriously think this scenario would ever happen, you need to get out and figure out how the world works. Also, you'd have to pay more than $600 per model, assuming I could pump one out every week that you would reliably pay for (which wouldn't happen) and then I'd still have to be able to afford health insurance, which would probably tack on another 50-100 dollars if I had to pay for that out of pocket. Major medical insurance is a bitch.

I'm talking about in a hypothetical situation, in the perfect storm, how things would play out. If I paid you to make a mod, not taking cost into effect, not taking the idea of "doing this for a living" into effect, in fact, would you make a mod for cash? Yes or no?

 

So yeah, not plausible. This whole conversation is kind of ridiculous, to be honest.

What's ridiculous is charging people for mods.

[Inyri]

I have no interest in answering a hypothetical question. If you want to ask a real question and get a real answer, go ahead. I've already stated my position, however.

[minilogoguy18]

No ones charging anyone, he's offering to pay, no one told him he had to pay, he's doing it to get an incentive going to make someone want to make his model.

 

It's not like the people that can model are demanding money for models.

[Inyri]

I am sad that I can only 'like' that post once.

[eezstreet]

I have no interest in answering a hypothetical question. If you want to ask a real question and get a real answer, go ahead. I've already stated my position, however.

Fine. I'll ask a real question then.

Can I pay you to make a mod?

 

No ones charging anyone, he's offering to pay, no one told him he had to pay, he's doing it to get an incentive going to make someone want to make his model.

 

It's not like the people that can model are demanding money for models.

No, but I still disagree with the idea that people need to pay money in order to get models done. Why waste all that time making a model for a guy for a few bucks, when you can curb the things you talked about in this thread by making a tutorial? That way, the community can benefit, not just one or two people with a dollar in their pocket or a model in their base folder.

[eezstreet]

I guess the main thing I'm asking here is, is it wrong to make a mod for cash? Or isn't it? I'm not asking about models specifically. I'm talking about mods.

I guarantee you that if the guy doesn't have the time to learn how to model, he isn't going to have the time to learn how to get it ingame either, since you would need a program to do such a thing, and some experience in the program.

[Kualan]

I guess the main thing I'm asking here is, is it wrong to make a mod for cash? Or isn't it?

 

You seem to have already made up your mind.

[eezstreet]

You seem to have already made up your mind.

From what I've gathered, people have been echoing the same sentiment, "it's fine to pay for models". Which, I agree, it isn't a bad thing. But I do disagree with making mods for cash. Because at what point do you decide that you're no different from Tim and Dan Mor, people that have deliberately sold assets for money? I'm not discussing the obvious thievery involved there. But I guess the same thing can be said of drug dealers: At what point do you go from a incidental person who sells a bit of dope for cash, to a dope dealer?

[Inyri]

Fine. I'll ask a real question then.

Can I pay you to make a mod?

No, I have neither the interest nor the time, and I doubt you or anyone else could make an offer that would change my mind. That's reality. I don't have to get far enough to get into morals and ethics -- I just don't have the energy to even entertain the idea.

 

Regarding him not being able to figure out how to get something packaged and in-game? Not the issue of the creator. If that's the deal, and the person is willing to pay for it, that's the deal. And there's nothing wrong with doing art on commission. In fact a lot of modding sites for other games have donation buttons right on the download pages. The Nexus sites, in particular, do this. Donations of course are quite different than reimbursement. A seeker offering to donate to an artist for making something is not at all the same as paying for services rendered.

 

So what it really comes down to is: is the artist charging for mods, or accepting donations as gratitude? I think you'll find that legally it makes all the difference.

[eezstreet]

No, I have neither the interest nor the time, and I doubt you or anyone else could make an offer that would change my mind. That's reality. I don't have to get far enough to get into morals and ethics -- I just don't have the energy to even entertain the idea.

Fair enough.

 

Regarding him not being able to figure out how to get something packaged and in-game? Not the issue of the creator. If that's the deal, and the person is willing to pay for it, that's the deal. And there's nothing wrong with doing art on commission. In fact a lot of modding sites for other games have donation buttons right on the download pages. The Nexus sites, in particular, do this. Donations of course are quite different than reimbursement. A seeker offering to donate to an artist for making something is not at all the same as paying for services rendered.

See my below post about how that differs from how this would have taken place. Things like that generally imply that the creation is open to the public for free use, without requiring a donation in order to take place. Now, what Tim on the other hand did, he accepted "donations" so that his mod would continue. And generally I think everyone agrees that what Tim did was wrong. At what point does someone who fulfills the OP's (of that thread's) request become someone like Tim? What makes someone like Tim different from someone like a modeller who makes a model for cash? Was it just the viruses or the content he stole that made his actions bad?

 

What about Dan Mor? Was it the fact that he piped the Ukrainian JKA community into his site, or was it the content that he stole that made it bad?

See, the reason I bring up thievery is because it's all become clear to me now.

 

If you're releasing models on the GLM format for cash, the GLM format was engineered and made by Raven Software, how fair is it that they spend all this time creating all these formats and exporters when people are practically gyping them for doing so? In a sense, you're kinda stealing from Raven, which in my eyes makes modders who do things for cash no different from Tim. And it doesn't matter what the drug dealer's motivations are, or how many times that he's sold drugs is. The fact is, the person who sells the content is someone who's done that. A drug dealer is still a drug dealer if they've done it one time after all.

 

So what it really comes down to is: is the artist charging for mods, or accepting donations as gratitude? I think you'll find that legally it makes all the difference.

If I give you a donation as a means of gratitude after giving me some weed, does that still make it illegal for that transaction to take place?

Edited January 27, 2013 by eezstreet

[Kualan]

If I give you a donation as a means of gratitude after giving me some weed, does that still make it illegal for that transaction to take place?

 

 

Sorry mate, but I don't understand the comparison. What is illegal about paying someone to make a mesh?

[eezstreet]

Sorry mate, but I don't understand the comparison. What is illegal about paying someone to make a mesh?

It's illegal if you violate the game's EULA, is it not?

That's a minor point though.

[Inyri]

Making a mesh doesn't violate any EULA ever. Making a pre-packaged mod does. And regardless, that's a contract violation. The best they can do it sue you for it.

 

And as far as donations go, as long as they're voluntary there's nothing wrong with them. Most sites that feature donation options usually do them through paypal, and there' usually a disclaimer. Example. I rightly have not looked at Skyrim's EULA lately, but you get the idea.

[Kualan]

It's illegal if you violate the game's EULA, is it not?

That's a minor point though.

 But making a mesh doesn't violate the EULA.

 

It has been said numerous times that we're talking about a scenario in which the modeller is being paid for the model, not converting/rigging it for in-game use. They make a model for a price offered by the buyer. The buyer then does all the tedious stuff getting it in-game. If they went on to try and sell the completely JKA rigged model to others for use in their game, then it would be illegal yes. But the original mesh-making is not.

 

It's the same policy with Star Wars fan films:

 

A director can pay an actor for his services and time, but after he has put the acting, the sound editing, the special effects together into a fully-fledged film he can't sell that on for others to view.

[minilogoguy18]

Texturing for the model I'm using for the tutorial is already underway by AshuraDX, the community will get their tutorial.

 

No one has to pay anything, it can still be done without a tutorial, someone just has to want it enough to search past the JK modding sites.

[eezstreet]

Making a mesh doesn't violate any EULA ever. Making a pre-packaged mod does. And regardless, that's a contract violation. The best they can do it sue you for it.

 

And as far as donations go, as long as they're voluntary there's nothing wrong with them. Most sites that feature donation options usually do them through paypal, and there' usually a disclaimer. Example. I rightly have not looked at Skyrim's EULA lately, but you get the idea.

Sorry, I misinterpreted. I thought he meant a prepackaged mod.

Either way you swing it, "donating" for a "mod" to be "released" is still wrong.

 

 But making a mesh doesn't violate the EULA.

Yeah, I misinterpreted. Sorry about that again. ._.

 

It has been said numerous times that we're talking about a scenario in which the modeller is being paid for the model, not converting/rigging it for in-game use. They make a model for a price offered by the buyer. The buyer then does all the tedious stuff getting it in-game. If they went on to try and sell the completely JKA rigged model to others for use in their game, then it would be illegal yes. But the original mesh-making is not.

And I'm talking about mods here, and whether or not it's legal for people to make mods, which for all intents and purposes, the OP of that thread was explicitly asking for. He wouldn't have asked for a simple mesh to be done on a forum explicitly about modding. That simply doesn't make any sense. Why would somebody ask for a mesh on a relatively small forum such as this for a specific niche, in favor of something like IndieDB or Polycount, where that kinda stuff is traded all the time. Furthermore, the lack of explicit sentiments such as "I only want the mesh, I'll put it into the game myself" (which I guess I would've been fine with, I don't totally agree with it, it's better than paying for a mod I guess but I still kinda disagree with the idea) makes me believe that the person was wanting a mod made, not a model.

[eezstreet]

Ninja'd, so I'll respond to this here.

 

Texturing for the model I'm using for the tutorial is already underway by AshuraDX, the community will get their tutorial.

it's good that the tutorial will come about, but I still don't agree with the fact that it needed a texture to be brought into the community.

 

No one has to pay anything, it can still be done without a tutorial, someone just has to want it enough to search past the JK modding sites.

Someone doesn't have to simply "want" something to get things done. I for one want bigotry, greed, and ignorance to end. Now, I've already spent pretty much my whole day on a forum defending my idea that one of those tenants should be upheld (and another, indirectly), that doesn't change the fact that people like Dan Mor or Tim are still profiting from the modding community.

That's why we need to inspire people. We need to inspire people to make models and other artwork, because people want tutorials on how to achieve what they're trying to do, not something which may or may not be unrelated. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to spend 30 hours or more studying on the theory of light before I learn anything about graphics programming.

[Inyri]

If the requester offers money, it'd be a donation. Don't very well see where the developers would have a leg to stand on to combat it. The creator can very well say "Hey, I didn't ask him for money in exchange for goods. It's not a purchase."

[Kualan]

If the requester offers money, it'd be a donation. Don't very well see where the developers would have a leg to stand on to combat it. The creator can very well say "Hey, I didn't ask him for money in exchange for goods. It's not a purchase."

 

Not sure this is strictly true, in that the creator would know when taking the job that this was work with monetary incentive. But it is certainly enough of a murky area that no developer is going to waste time and money pursuing such a frivolous thing.

[eezstreet]

If the requester offers money, it'd be a donation. Don't very well see where the developers would have a leg to stand on to combat it. The creator can very well say "Hey, I didn't ask him for money in exchange for goods. It's not a purchase."

Sure, but if he didn't have any donation, the creator probably wouldn't have made it. Frame of reference:

 

Noones charging anyone, he's offering to pay, no one told him he had to pay, he's doing it to get an incentive going to make someone want to make his model.

 

It's not like the people that can model are demanding money for models.

[Inyri]

Sure, but if he didn't have any donation, the creator probably wouldn't have made it. Frame of reference:

Prove it in a court of law. That's the issue -- you can't prove what someone might or might not have done. And that's why, legally, it's not an issue.

[eezstreet]

Prove it in a court of law. That's the issue -- you can't prove what someone might or might not have done. And that's why, legally, it's not an issue.

So how does it stand morally, which in my opinion is the bigger issue?

[Astral Serpent]

You could take the secret santa event into mind, because in the end it was trading one mod for another, just not a direct trade between two people...

But the difference was you didn't know what you were going to get, nor did you have many expectations or hopes for most things.

 

I think it's silly to pay for mods, modding is a hobby, not a job.

Trading mods is questionable... but one should not need to trade as an incentive, but rather feel as the trade is a part of inspiration or motivation to mod, since you know someone actually wants it.

 

Not sure if my post makes sense

[Inyri]

So how does it stand morally, which in my opinion is the bigger issue?

Morals are subjective, which we prove here at JKHub every day. You can't have a discussion on objective morals, so why bother?