What does it mean to be a great Jedi?

[Cerez]

[Darth Sion]

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"
 

[Cerez]

Hahaha! Oh dear, @@Darth Sion -- SuperCarlinBrothers is a Sith! XD

 

Being a true Jedi Knight means being selfless, living for the Force rather than one's own development or benefit. Jedi are guardians of the Light Side of the Force, of balance and harmony. They are the yin.

 

In opposition, the Sith are Knights of the Dark Side of the Force, concentrated on progress, control, and self-development (power). They are advocates of the benefits of chaos and individual qualities to make progress. They are the yang.

 

The amusing thing is that one without the other would cause unbalance. The world needs both, and true harmony lies in-between, in the mutual struggle of these two forces with one another. That is the awareness of a Gray Jedi Knight -- my chosen pathway.

[Ping]

So you would fuel the fires of war because the struggle between the jedi and sith are a necessary component of existence? If the sith are on the brink of extinction, you would end up aiding them and the dark side? You would have worlds sacrificed in the name of somekind of cosmic balance, because jedi and sith have to wage endless war? In short: You consider struggle to be a kind of harmony?

[Cerez]

Another interesting thing to note is that a Jedi is generally *not* more powerful than a Sith (as an individual), but in fighting a great Jedi Knight, a Sith is truly facing the Light Side of the Force, and affecting the balance between the two sides. A Jedi Knight is only powerful when the Force commands it to restore the balance. Otherwise he/she is weak by individual power standards -- since there is supposed to be no individual power or ambition thriving within a Jedi Knight.

[Cerez]

So you would fuel the fires of war because the struggle between the jedi and sith are a necessary component of existence? If the sith are on the brink of extinction, you would end up aiding them and the dark side? You would have worlds sacrificed in the name of somekind of cosmic balance, because jedi and sith have to wage endless war? In short: You consider struggle to be a kind of harmony?

Exactly. A Gray Jedi Knight would aid the Dark Side if the Light had blinded the universe. He/she would not necessarily partake in the battle, but they would definitely aid the Dark Side to rise to its former position in the balance of the Force. Just look at Jolee Bindo in KOTOR. He was there to make sure the balance stays in balance, whether Revan had turned to the Dark or Light Side in the end.

 

A true Gray Jedi recognises the need for harmony as well as the need for conflict. The need for selflessness as well as the values of individuality. They serve the balance between the Dark and the Light, owing allegiance to neither side, but to the balance itself -- or, in the case of Jolee, to the balance as well as his own amusement.

[Ping]

I am not questioning whether or not being a grey jedi is a good thing or not, but I do wonder whether you are fully aware of the consequences of your position. Imagine you live in a republican galaxy with the jedi in a position of considerable political power and since both the jedi as well as the republic are supposed to care for the good of all and preserve peace, protect the innocents etc, everyone is living in a stable political system, people are fairly content with their lot and have enjoyed peace for many, many years now because the sith have been battled off to the fringes of the galaxy. Would you not see it as your duty to the force and to all living beings everywhere that balance be restored by arming sith militants, training dark jedi and having them attack various planets, incite wars and have them battle the jedi and the republic? Consider that this creates a lot of suffering for innocent bystanders.

 

Imagine a different scenario: Given that dark jedi are prone to perform all kinds of atrocities against innocents, would you not see it as a good thing, in fact as your duty to the force to help them directly or indirectly perform such atrocities? E.g. help a dark jedi get consumed by anger and hatred so much that he destroys an entire village full of innocent people - with the eventual goal being the restoration of the dark side of the force to match the light side.

 

I mean, the whole balance thing is all fine and dandy until you start thinking of light and dark in terms of good and evil, which is what they are (almost all the time) portrayed as in the movies.

 

Also remember that for your position harmony is conflict, and a lack of conflict makes the universe much worse off because it means there is no balance in the force - I am wondering if a lack of conflict can mean a lack of warfare or a lack of dark jedi, and given that both can create needless suffering for a lot of people, I am wondering if reducing suffering as much as possible is a tenet that would go against what grey jedi stand for.

[Cerez]

Would you not see it as your duty to the force and to all living beings everywhere that balance be restored by arming sith militants, training dark jedi and having them attack various planets, incite wars and have them battle the jedi and the republic? Consider that this creates a lot of suffering for innocent bystanders.

Yes, I would see both of those scenarios as extreme and out of balance. In the first case, if the Jedi have created total peace, harmony, and understanding in the galaxy, progress would be halted to a stand-still and an entire civilisation would fall into apathy and decay. So, in other words, too much good is not good.

 

The second scenario is easier to answer -- a war-torn galaxy where suffering is prevalent is once again out of balance, so in that scenario Gray Jedi would work to help the Light Side rise. In other words, too much conflict leads to too much suffering, and a tip in the natural balance once again.

 

A true Gray Jedi would therefore -- in my understanding -- appreciate conflict as long as it ultimately serves a better purpose, and helps keep the balance between the Light and the Dark. So yes, sometimes that means looking the other way, and letting the Dark Side do its work. Not partaking in the atrocities necessarily, as Dark Jedi would, but supporting/helping it nonetheless. (Or just going along for the ride as a spectator.)

 

They are the neutral party between the Light and the Dark, an outcast to both. They were once Jedi of the Order, now they walk the independent and uncertain road between the Dark and the Light.

 

Conflict may be the bringer of much suffering, but is also a necessary part of the appreciation of harmony. The two are worthless without each other; they are unseparably connected.

 

I am wondering if reducing suffering as much as possible is a tenet that would go against what grey jedi stand for.

It depends on the state of balance in the Force. If there is too much harmony, conflict is needed. If there is too much conflict, more harmony is needed.

 

Gray Jedi would appreciate and aid the work of the Dark Side in a galaxy dominated by the Light. Call it being bored. (But actually, it's working against the staleness and decay an all-Light galaxy would bring.) They would work to weaken the influence of the Jedi Order.

[Smoo]

Ask Rosh Penin. "I'm a great Jedi!"

[Darth Sion]

So you would fuel the fires of war because the struggle between the jedi and sith are a necessary component of existence? If the sith are on the brink of extinction, you would end up aiding them and the dark side? You would have worlds sacrificed in the name of somekind of cosmic balance, because jedi and sith have to wage endless war? In short: You consider struggle to be a kind of harmony?

Simple answer; yes. I've always let the "darkness" overcome me, because it's what I personally feel inside, all the time. I've tried to follow the "light" and do good, but no matter how much good you try and do, you're easily "pushed around" (figure of speech) or "walked all over" and it also conveys a sense of weakness. Well, I oppose to that. I could go on and on and on about why, but the simple fact is, that "Peace is a lie". It will never be attainable. There will always be conflict in the world/universe, no matter what point of view you try to view it from.

 

[the_raven]

Ask Rosh Penin. "I'm a great Jedi!"

beat me to it!

[Mizore]

Being a true Jedi Knight means being selfless, living for the Force rather than one's own development or benefit. Jedi are guardians of the Light Side of the Force, of balance and harmony. They are the yin.

 

In opposition, the Sith are Knights of the Dark Side of the Force, concentrated on progress, control, and self-development (power). They are advocates of the benefits of chaos and individual qualities to make progress. They are the yang.

 

The amusing thing is that one without the other would cause unbalance. The world needs both, and true harmony lies in-between, in the mutual struggle of these two forces with one another. That is the awareness of a Gray Jedi Knight -- my chosen pathway.

 

It does not make sense that the Jedi are guardians of harmony and that a dominance of the Jedi causes imbalance: balance is harmony.

[Mizore]

Conflict may be the bringer of much suffering, but is also a necessary part of the appreciation of harmony. The two are worthless without each other; they are unseparably connected.

 

 

People can appreciate peace without war; although conflict is a necessary element of the world, it is never right to proactively seek conflict.

[Mizore]

There will always be conflict in the world/universe, no matter what point of view you try to view it from.

 

 

 

Even if that is true, the right thing is to fight for peace. The position of the Jedi is not about what there is but about what must be.

[the_raven]

It does not make sense that the Jedi are guardians of harmony and that a dominance of the Jedi causes imbalance: balance is harmony.

Even if that is true, the right thing is to fight for peace. The position of the Jedi is not about what there is but about what must be.

[Mizore]

The Jedi did not misunderstand the prophecy; Vader brought the balance to the Force by throwing the Emperor to the pit. They just did not know at what price.

 

And fighting for peace is not contradictory: there are cops fighting against criminals.

[the_raven]

The Jedi did not misunderstand the prophecy; Vader brought the balance to the Force by throwing the Emperor to the pit. They just did not know at what price.

 

And fighting for peace is not contradictory: there are cops fighting against criminals.

Balance is when there's an equal amount of two (or more) contradicting things (in our case, the dark and light sides of the force). There was no balance before ep3 because there was an excess of jedi and the lightside, only two sith and a bunch of non-sith darksiders. Then Anakin turned to the darkside and began killing off the excess jedi, bringing a relative balance. Then came Luke, brought Anakin back to the lightside, and killed Palpatine, again breaking the balance in favor of the lightside\ jedi.

 

The cops are fighting crime, not war. Your argument is invalid.

Some could of course argue that war is a crime in itself, but that's a matter of rhetoric.

[Mizore]

Balance is when there's an equal amount of two (or more) contradicting things (in our case, the dark and light sides of the force). There was no balance before ep3 because there was an excess of jedi and the lightside, only two sith and a bunch of non-sith darksiders. Then Anakin turned to the darkside and began killing off the excess jedi, bringing a relative balance. Then came Luke, brought Anakin back to the lightside, and killed Palpatine, again breaking the balance in favor of the lightside\ jedi.

 

The cops are fighting crime, not war. Your argument is invalid.

Some could of course argue that war is a crime in itself, but that's a matter of rhetoric.

 

I disagree. Balance is the dominance of the lightside. A relative balance is crap; Vader killed Palpatine and so brought the balance to the Force. The dominance of the darkside is imbalance.

 

Jedi are similar to cops, fighting for peace.

[Onysfx]

What if we said the darkside is the imbalance? People think that in order for there to be balance, the darkside (imbalance) must exist. Nonsense.

[TheWhitePhoenix]

My view of being a great Jedi is to have balance. What caused the Old Jedi Order to die out was that they restricted themselves, made themselves more like monks than living beings with needs, feelings and moral judgements. They shouldn't try to shut out what they are, living beings, but rather, embrace them. This is why I loved Luke's New Jedi Order in Legends. They were more unrestricted, they seemed more like individuals rather than beings concerned with a narrow minded view. To be a great Jedi...is to have great power, but not restrict yourself in using it. Especially when the time comes for where you have to use that power to bring down a great threat. But you also have that responsibility to control that power when that threat is gone. You can be loyal to the Jedi and still be a human being, or alien. And that means having a family while being a member as well.

With great power, comes great responsibility.

[the_raven]

I disagree. Balance is the dominance of the lightside. A relative balance is crap; Vader killed Palpatine and so brought the balance to the Force. The dominance of the darkside is imbalance.

what kind of balance is there in the dominance of a single oposite? light, or dark, that's not balance, that's imbalance.

 

My view of being a great Jedi is to have balance. What caused the Old Jedi Order to die out was that they restricted themselves, made themselves more like monks than living beings with needs, feelings and moral judgements. They shouldn't try to shut out what they are, living beings, but rather, embrace them. This is why I loved Luke's New Jedi Order in Legends. They were more unrestricted, they seemed more like individuals rather than beings concerned with a narrow minded view. To be a great Jedi...is to have great power, but not restrict yourself in using it. Especially when the time comes for where you have to use that power to bring down a great threat. But you also have that responsibility to control that power when that threat is gone. You can be loyal to the Jedi and still be a human being, or alien. And that means having a family while being a member as well.

 

With great power, comes great responsibility.

[Boothand]

Do you really think an entire civilization would grow stale and apathetic just because the Jedi were in control? Say, for instance, you choose one day not to blow up some planet or murder some dogs, cows or children in order to restore balance - you still have the kind of conflicts that are in a growing, changing society such as ours. Not everyone is a Jedi/monk, and I'm sure, if it was real, the Star Wars world would have plenty of moral and political issues, regardless of galactic wars. If not, and everything was unanimously perfect, that would be severely unrealistic and thus equally less interesting in any discussion about the meaning of conflict or 'unbalance'.

 

So, no need to go around and seek conflict for the heck of it.

 

The Jedi might be neglecting their own potential as human beings by blatantly suppressing their humanity, but the idea of helping/supporting the Sith (power-seeking selfish violent killers?) back, for the sake of keeping things interesting, is just that: making things more interesting, because Star Wars is cool when people fight!

[Ramikad]

Huh, all of this reminds me of one of the phrases in the Matty Quad Council Room (side note: I love that map)...

 

"...Peace is always a deception - Where there is alot of good, evil is hidden, Where the dark rules, light will strike out..."

[Cerez]

People can appreciate peace without war; although conflict is a necessary element of the world, it is never right to proactively seek conflict.

 

Can they? I question that. People generally don't seem to notice when something they're used to is around. Only when it is gone do they pay attention to it.

 

The Jedi might be neglecting their own potential as human beings by blatantly suppressing their humanity, but the idea of helping/supporting the Sith (power-seeking selfish violent killers?) back, for the sake of keeping things interesting, is just that: making things more interesting, because Star Wars is cool when people fight!

 

While I cannot (and do not want to) deny this, I will draw attention to the fact that without a dynamic between opposing powers, it is generally observed, in human behaviour, that things will go stale, progress will be halted, people will go lazy. It seems to me humanity needs conflict, and if the Jedi Code is to be followed to the fullest, there would be no room for any conflict at all.

 

It seems to me that the Jedi are the other extreme.

[Ping]

It really depends on whether the force is a single unitary thing or whether there is a dark and light side of the force as two separate things with a common basis. The former would make the force like a sea, which can be turbulent with a lot of waves (dark side) or tranquil and flat (light side). The latter would make the force like atoms, which are both in fire (dark side) and ice (light side). Although ice and fire are still fundamentally atomic, we would not say that fire is hot ice and vice versa. They are two different things that merely have a common microstructure. But a sea is still a sea regardless of whether it is turbulent or tranquil, and a turbulent sea is still a sea.

 

Bringing balance to the force if we understand the dark and light sides to be two different things with a common underlying basis would mean to make sure that both the light and the dark side are equally present in the galaxy in order to create wars, conflict, death and destruction or whatever. Bringing balance to the force if we understand the force to be a single unitary thing would mean to make the force 'balanced', i.e. to make it tranquil and calm. The dark side is then akin to chaos, i.e. the dark side and its harm results from the force being chaotic (or being used in a chaotic way), just like shipwrecks are caused by the sea being turbulent, whereas the light side would then be balanced in the sense of the force being tranquil, just like when the sea is quiet.

 

Bringing balance to the force in this latter sense would then also mean creating the conditions for the development of civilization. Just as a quiet sea makes it possible for commerce to take place, for people to travel, for knowledge and books to disseminate, so too does peace and political stability make it possible for art to develop, culture and science to flourish etc.

 

As for progress requiring conflict: Burning down the livelihood of your neighbours is the crudest form of conflict and this is especially so when it comes to murdering others or destroying whole planets. If people have peace, they can fight with each other over scientific theories, try to outdo each other in feats of engineering or compete in debates instead of having to serve as soldiers in war or be caught up in the fighting as innocent bystanders.