code FEATURE: OpenGL 3 Renderer

Archangel35757 · February 26, 2017

@@Archangel35757 I would have thought that you would have Softimage installed considering you're trying to check for errors against files coming from max with all your exporter work.

I do... but I don't trust myself to add the tangent space data correctly.

I'm searching the sdk help and docs now... would be nice if you could email me your 3.5 file with the customPset data.

Psyk0Sith · February 26, 2017

@@Psyk0Sith - good job. Ok... so those dotXSI 3.0 files were produced with the v1.9 exporter, correct? What export vertex normals option did you use? What were your xNormal settings?

-XSI exporter 1.9

-Normals set to smoothing groups

-Xnormal baked with a cage and checked the binormals box in the mikkt plugin. Swizzle was set to -Y just because its standard for max shader, don't know what rend2 uses.

Download the box here

Type npc spawn xnbox to load.

Shader will need to be ~~written~~ added for normals and AO and swizzle changed if needed.

models/players/XNbox/diffuse
{
    {
     map models/players/XNbox/diffuse
     rgbGen lightingdiffuse
    }
{
stage normalmap
map models/players/XNbox/normals
     normalScale 1 1
}
}

minilogoguy18 · February 26, 2017

@@Archangel35757 On the left pane no matter what mode you're in...

Get>Property>Tangent You'll also see Binormal in there as well.

I just can't get around to this right now, company at the house.

Archangel35757 · February 27, 2017

@@minilogoguy18 - so I loaded the sample jaiqua female mesh in Softimage and applied a Tangent Property to the mesh...

It gives options to pick different sources for UVs and Tangents-- I'm not sure how that aspect works and what you would pick from (...the Hi-Poly mesh? I don't know...)

...

Like you said, it writes out a CustomPSet template denoting it has tangent data (as stored in the vertex COLOR parameter):

                XSI_CustomPSet Jaiqua_Mod.low-res.Tangent {
                    "NODE",
                    2,
                    "Texcoord","Text","Texture_Support",
                    "Tangents","Text","Tangents",
                }

...and it wrote these tangent vectors under the SI_Mesh templates vertex "COLOR" parameter. Like so:

                        8438,
                        "COLOR",
                        -0.298336,0.047644,-0.953271,0.342933,
                        -0.681604,-0.195287,-0.705180,0.304814,
                        -0.879368,-0.230859,-0.416431,0.342933,
                        -0.565923,-0.497810,-0.657203,0.342933,
                                *
                                *
                                *

...and in the SI_TriangleList where it stores the vertex ID reference it added the COLOR parameter as well.

                    SI_TriangleList Jaiqua_Mod.low-res {
                        4130,
                        "NORMAL|COLOR|TEX_COORD_UV0",
                        "DefaultLib.Material1",

So I exported the file out again as dotXSI 3.0 (same settings) and it fails to write the Tangent CustomPSet template... however, it DOES include the COLOR parameter in the SI_Mesh and SI_TriangleList... it just writes the values as zeroes. So on the 3ds Max side of things... the minimal effort would be to simply add the CustomPSet template and fill in the COLOR data correctly. Because it's a shit-load of work to rework the exporter to overhaul the material templates due to major changes in the dotXSI 3.5 materials.

I do recall seeing xNormal options for using vertex color-- but I don't know if this is how xNormal knows to use that data for the tangent basis vectors or if it's expecting something else... @@Psyk0Sith, @@Almightygir?

EDIT: @@minilogoguy18... ok, I went back and also saw the Binormal property like you pointed out; so I added it, re-exported dotXSI 3.5, and it generated the following custom template:


                XSI_CustomPSet Jaiqua_Mod.low-res.Binormal {
                    "NODE",
                    2,
                    "Texcoord","Text","Texture_Support",
                    "Binormals","Text","Binormals",
                }

However, when I compared the two dotXSI 3.5 files... this "Binormal" change did not modify the numbers at all written under the "COLOR" info. So I find this a bit disconcerting (of course I don't know what I'm doing or if you are suppose to use the "pick" features, etc.)

Edited February 27, 2017 by Archangel35757

Psyk0Sith · February 27, 2017

No vertex color has nothing to do with normal maps. It's used for baking colors from polypainting.Irrelevant!

Archangel35757 · February 27, 2017

No vertex color has nothing to do with normal maps. It's used for baking colors from polypainting.Irrelevant!

Then please tell me how xNormal knows to use tangent basis vectors stored in FBX (or dotXSI) format? Can you take a screenshot of that? Because I just looked thru the options and plugin configuration settings and nothing jumps out at me that says "use mesh tangent data" ...in the Tangent Basis Calculator config settings, I only see a checkbox for "Compute binormal on the fly in the shader."

All I see that might be relevant is the "Ignore per-vertex-color" checkbox in the Hi-Def mesh's section (but you say that's not applicable). And "Match UVs" and "Highpoly normals override tangent space" checkboxes in the Low-Def mesh's section.

Tempust85 · February 27, 2017

@@Psyk0Sith

Here's a shader for your test box:

models/players/XNbox/diffuse
{
    	{
    	    map models/players/XNbox/diffuse
    	    rgbGen lightingdiffuse
    	}
        {
            stage normalmap
            map models/players/XNbox/normals
	    normalScale 1 1
        }
}

ONLY use the .mtr extension IF there is already a .shader of the same name. So in this case, use .shader.

If the normals need to be flipped, use "normalScale". First value is red channel, second value is green channel.

"1" will leave the normals 'as-is'

"-1" will invert the channel

You can also increase/decrease the intensity of the normals by changing the "1" to a higher or lower value.

minilogoguy18 · February 27, 2017

@@Archangel35757 those 2 options are really only for using secondary UV maps and such, the default settings are usually fine in most cases, it mainly applies to models that use more than 1 texture where you have separate clusters controlling UV islands. You also should apply the binormal custom pSet in the same menu as tangents only applies to the U coordinates or X where binormal controls the Y or X and your standard polygon normals which you're most familiar with editing by way of smoothing groups is Z. The reason these properties are needed is to accurately compute which direction the normal map displaces the mesh so there isn't a completely inverted area.

If you want to smooth out all the awkwardness just go into the clusters under the object in the explorer and find the tangents, a PPG will open with a slider that will allow some smoothing.

I'm having a tough time remembering every little detail since it has been years since I've used this stuff as I'm not modding games anymore that use normal maps. At that time I wasn't even using xNormal, just the Mental Ray renderer in Softimage with the Ultimapper baking tools.

Archangel35757 · February 27, 2017

@@Archangel35757 those 2 options are really only for using secondary UV maps and such, the default settings are usually fine in most cases, it mainly applies to models that use more than 1 texture where you have separate clusters controlling UV islands. You also should apply the binormal custom pSet in the same menu as tangents only applies to the U coordinates or X where binormal controls the Y or X and your standard polygon normals which you're most familiar with editing by way of smoothing groups is Z. The reason these properties are needed is to accurately compute which direction the normal map displaces the mesh so there isn't a completely inverted area.

If you want to smooth out all the awkwardness just go into the clusters under the object in the explorer and find the tangents, a PPG will open with a slider that will allow some smoothing.

I'm having a tough time remembering every little detail since it has been years since I've used this stuff as I'm not modding games anymore that use normal maps. At that time I wasn't even using xNormal, just the Mental Ray renderer in Softimage with the Ultimapper baking tools.

By "options" I assume you are referring to the 2 "Pick" buttons. I did apply the Binormal option just above the tangent option... it created a "binormal" CustomPSet... but like I said... doing a pre-/post- comparison of the two resulting XSI 3.5 files... adding Binormal didn't change any values under "COLOR" parameter. Should it have?

minilogoguy18 · February 27, 2017

Well I haven't looked at the file in a text editor or anything but just simply exported it and reimported it and both properties were brought back into Softimage. How it stores them in the dotXSI file I can't say. As for the options, no, there are some other options stored under the texture coordinates cluster.

http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/tangents_binormals_EditingTangentsandBinormals.htm

You might wanna ignore some of the clusters I have in there, I need to do some scene clean up.

Almightygir · February 27, 2017

Then please tell me how xNormal knows to use tangent basis vectors stored in FBX (or dotXSI) format? Can you take a screenshot of that? Because I just looked thru the options and plugin configuration settings and nothing jumps out at me that says "use mesh tangent data" ...in the Tangent Basis Calculator config settings, I only see a checkbox for "Compute binormal on the fly in the shader."

All I see that might be relevant is the "Ignore per-vertex-color" checkbox in the Hi-Def mesh's section (but you say that's not applicable). And "Match UVs" and "Highpoly normals override tangent space" checkboxes in the Low-Def mesh's section.

xNormal loads FBX files the same way every other piece of software does, FBX stores vertex data as a struct, with multiple vectors as entries in that struct, one of which is tangents, another is binormals. It just accesses each entry in the struct as needed.

You absolutely should NOT store tangents or binormals in vertex colors as those are often capped at half precision.

Archangel35757 · February 27, 2017

@@Almightygir - so from looking at XSIFTK docs... the "COLOR" property is stored as floats- so that's single-precision, yes?

Also, check your PMs.

@@minilogoguy18 - I did not see a "Binormal" property in XSI Mod Tool 6-- only a "Tangents" property. Can you confirm? Maybe this only stores the tangent vector in "COLOR" and they expect you to compute binormal from cross product of face normal and tangent???

minilogoguy18 · February 27, 2017

I'm not using version 6, I'm using 7.5, it can be found for download on ModDB, would host it here if it's considered OK.

Archangel35757 · February 27, 2017

I'm not using version 6, I'm using 7.5, it can be found for download on ModDB, would host it here if it's considered OK.

Would you do a quick check using the sample jaiqua scene... and add only "Binormal" and see what (if anything) it writes into the "COLOR" property in the SI_Shape template?

minilogoguy18 · February 27, 2017

It seems the file you were hosting no longer exists.

Archangel35757 · February 27, 2017

It seems the file you were hosting no longer exists.

Yeah, I deleted it... because @@Psyk0Sith says it was not a good candidate and too complex to fix. Testing should use his Box test files he linked to in one of his earlier posts.

Psyk0Sith · February 27, 2017

It was ok for the purposes but would've taken additional work.

@minilogoguy18 You can get the boxes here if that's what you want to use.

minilogoguy18 · February 27, 2017

I don't think I see what I'm looking for, you might wanna download 7.5 and do whatever experiments you need to make your exporter work.

xsi 0350txt 0032

SI_FileInfo { 
	"", 
	"Alex", 
	"Sun Feb 26 22:07:02 2017", 
	"Autodesk Softimage Version 7.5.203.0", 
}

SI_Scene Scene { 
	"FRAMES", 
	1.000000, 
	100.000000, 
	29.970030, 
}

SI_CoordinateSystem { 
	1, 
	0, 
	1, 
	0, 
	2, 
	5, 
}

SI_Angle { 
	0, 
}

SI_Ambience { 
	0.200000, 
	0.200000, 
	0.200000, 
}

SI_MaterialLibrary MATLIB-Scene { 
	1, 
	XSI_Material DefaultLib.Scene_Material { 
		12, 
		"surface","Phong",
		"volume","",
		"environment","",
		"contour","",
		"displacement","",
		"shadow","Phong",
		"Photon","Phong",
		"PhotonVolume","",
		"normal","",
		"Lightmap","",
		"RealTime","",
		"material","",
		XSI_Shader Phong { 
			"Softimage.material-phong.1", 
			4, 
			54, 
			28, 
			"Name","STRING","Phong",
			"ambient.red","FLOAT",0.300000,
			"ambient.green","FLOAT",0.300000,
			"ambient.blue","FLOAT",0.300000,
			"ambient.alpha","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"diffuse.red","FLOAT",0.700000,
			"diffuse.green","FLOAT",0.700000,
			"diffuse.blue","FLOAT",0.700000,
			"diffuse.alpha","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"specular.red","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"specular.green","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"specular.blue","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"specular.alpha","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"shiny","FLOAT",50.000000,
			"transparency.red","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"transparency.green","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"transparency.blue","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"transparency.alpha","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"trans_glossy","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"transparent_samples","INTEGER",0,
			"reflectivity.red","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"reflectivity.green","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"reflectivity.blue","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"reflectivity.alpha","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"reflect_glossy","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"reflect_samples","INTEGER",0,
			"index_of_refraction","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"translucency","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"incandescence.red","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"incandescence.green","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"incandescence.blue","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"incandescence.alpha","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"inc_inten","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"bump.x","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"bump.y","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"bump.z","FLOAT",0.000000,
			"notrace","BOOLEAN",0,
			"diffuse_inuse","BOOLEAN",1,
			"specular_inuse","BOOLEAN",1,
			"reflect_inuse","BOOLEAN",1,
			"refract_inuse","BOOLEAN",1,
			"incand_inuse","BOOLEAN",1,
			"translucent_inuse","BOOLEAN",1,
			"radiance.red","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"radiance.green","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"radiance.blue","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"radiance.alpha","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"radiance_filter","BOOLEAN",1,
			"scaletrans","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"inverttrans","BOOLEAN",0,
			"usealphatrans","BOOLEAN",0,
			"scalerefl","FLOAT",1.000000,
			"invertrefl","BOOLEAN",0,
			"usealpharefl","BOOLEAN",0,
			"ambient","","",
			"diffuse","","",
			"specular","","",
			"shiny","","",
			"transparency","","",
			"trans_glossy","","",
			"reflectivity","","",
			"reflect_glossy","","",
			"index_of_refraction","","",
			"translucency","","",
			"incandescence","","",
			"inc_inten","","",
			"bump","","",
			"notrace","","",
			"diffuse_inuse","","",
			"specular_inuse","","",
			"reflect_inuse","","",
			"refract_inuse","","",
			"incand_inuse","","",
			"translucent_inuse","","",
			"radiance","","",
			"radiance_filter","","",
			"scaletrans","","",
			"inverttrans","","",
			"usealphatrans","","",
			"scalerefl","","",
			"invertrefl","","",
			"usealpharefl","","",
		}

	}

}

SI_Model MDL-Rhombicosidodecahedron { 
	SI_GlobalMaterial { 
		"DefaultLib.Scene_Material", 
		"BRANCH", 
	}

	SI_Transform SRT-Rhombicosidodecahedron { 
		1.000000, 
		1.000000, 
		1.000000, 
		0.000000, 
		0.000000, 
		0.000000, 
		0.000000, 
		0.000000, 
		0.000000, 
	}

	SI_Visibility { 
		1, 
	}

	XSI_CustomPSet Rhombicosidodecahedron.Binormal { 
		"NODE", 
		2,
		"Texcoord","Text","Texcoord", 
		"Binormals","Text","Binormals", 
	}

	XSI_CustomPSet Rhombicosidodecahedron.Tangent { 
		"NODE", 
		2,
		"Texcoord","Text","Texcoord", 
		"Tangents","Text","Tangents", 
	}

	XSI_CustomPSet Rhombicosidodecahedron.Mesh_Subdivision_Info { 
		"NODE", 
		1,
		"Subdivision","Small Integer Number",0, 
	}

	SI_Mesh MSH-Rhombicosidodecahedron { 
		SI_Shape SHP-Rhombicosidodecahedron-ORG { 
			4, 
			"ORDERED", 

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			18,19,20,
			21,22,23,
			24,25,26,
			27,28,29,
			30,31,32,
			33,34,35,
			36,37,38,
			39,40,41,
			42,43,44,
			45,46,47,
			48,49,50,
			51,52,53,
			54,55,56,
			57,58,59,
			60,61,62,63,
			64,65,66,67,
			68,69,70,71,
			72,73,74,75,
			76,77,78,79,
			80,81,82,83,
			84,85,86,87,
			88,89,90,91,
			92,93,94,95,
			96,97,98,99,
			100,101,102,103,
			104,105,106,107,
			108,109,110,111,
			112,113,114,115,
			116,117,118,119,
			120,121,122,123,
			124,125,126,127,
			128,129,130,131,
			132,133,134,135,
			136,137,138,139,
			140,141,142,143,
			144,145,146,147,
			148,149,150,151,
			152,153,154,155,
			156,157,158,159,
			160,161,162,163,
			164,165,166,167,
			168,169,170,171,
			172,173,174,175,
			176,177,178,179,
			180,181,182,183,184,
			185,186,187,188,189,
			190,191,192,193,194,
			195,196,197,198,199,
			200,201,202,203,204,
			205,206,207,208,209,
			210,211,212,213,214,
			215,216,217,218,219,
			220,221,222,223,224,
			225,226,227,228,229,
			230,231,232,233,234,
			235,236,237,238,239,

		}

	}

}

minilogoguy18 · February 27, 2017

I just exported my own file since I don't see the point at all of trading files back and forth.

Archangel35757 · February 27, 2017

I just exported my own file since I don't see the point at all of trading files back and forth.

It's also about seeing if the dotXSI file and it's tangent data stored under the SI_Shape template's COLOR property is used at all by xNormal-- if not then there is no point to updating the dotXSI exporters. We were wanting you to take @@Psyk0Sith's box files and see if you produce the same or different normal map... when you add the tangents property to dotXSI 3.5.

minilogoguy18 · February 27, 2017

Do you want me to add just the tangents or binormals too?

Archangel35757 · February 27, 2017

Do you want me to add just the tangents or binormals too?

3 cases:

1. Binormals only

2. Tangents only

3. Tangents and Binormals.

I'm somewhat confused because I don't see how the COLOR RGBA float value can store two vectors unless it appends one set at the end of another. My hunch is that it only ever writes out the "tangents" to COLOR and it expects the binormal to be created from cross product of triangle face normal and tangent vector... but you can prove me wrong. Oh, and these need to be triangulated meshes as I understand it.

Almightygir · February 27, 2017

So here's an idea that might be better...

@@Xycaleth wrote an fbx > mdl converter, right? So why not modify that to export the new .GTB file containing the tangents and binormals found in the fbx, which can then be read by the importer.

That way, you're no longer relient on xNormal, and instead can use the fbx format for your low poly when baking and texturing in the now industry standard substance tools, marmoset toolbag, or knald baker. And because the .GTB file will contain the tangents and binormals that the fbx had, you can be sure they are synced to the normal map bake as well.

edit: this also breaks reliance on the now depricated .xsi formats in favour of a more widely used current format.

Archangel35757 · February 28, 2017

So here's an idea that might be better...

@@Xycaleth wrote an fbx > mdl converter, right? So why not modify that to export the new .GTB file containing the tangents and binormals found in the fbx, which can then be read by the importer.

That way, you're no longer relient on xNormal, and instead can use the fbx format for your low poly when baking and texturing in the now industry standard substance tools, marmoset toolbag, or knald baker. And because the .GTB file will contain the tangents and binormals that the fbx had, you can be sure they are synced to the normal map bake as well.

edit: this also breaks reliance on the now depricated .xsi formats in favour of a more widely used current format.

I do agree that his tool should be updated to generate this *.GTB file from an FBX for use by the rend2 renderer.

But we still need Carcass and dotXSI files to generate the Ghoul2 .GLA animation file. It's the only tool available (besides Blender) to compile Ghoul2 animations. @@Xycaleth's FBX2GLM converter only creates a static GLM mesh file... and I'm not sure if it handles LODs-- others would know.

So non-Blender users would still be able to use the GLM file produced by Carcass, right? This forces the pipeline to use only FBX for normal and cavity maps, right? (do AO maps need this data?)

So that everyone knows, I wrote an email to Santiago and Grant asking if they would release to me the their deprecated dotXSI mesh importer plugin source code...

minilogoguy18 · February 28, 2017

The FBX->GLM converter does not do LOD's, I'm pretty sure he said something about that a few pages back.

Does Raven really even care so much about tools for a game that's approaching 15 years of age? Can we not modify things to get the results we want? You also have to COMPLETELY FORGET ABOUT LEGACY AND COMPATIBILITY, this is not a simple model we're trying to make work in the base game. This is a stand alone product that will only need the game discs for CD checks, other than that once we get into the realm of changing the models/maps to use PBR we wont be using any base assets other than the character animations which can be converted into any format we desire. We're not charging money for this so using the animations isn't going to be problem. If anything if this thing sees the light of day Raven would make money due to people spending the $5 or so bucks it costs to buy the game on steam to be able to play the TC.

It seems like at this point we either need to alter the GLM format for DF2 and DF2 alone to make the models up to 2017 standards or deal with being outdated.

The other method which may not see any progress is the FBX->GLM converter to spit out a tangent/binormal data file but then it'd also have to be updated to do everthing which brings us back to carcass and making something to replace it or do what it does but more.

I would love to use a more current substance pipeline with marmoset.

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