Be supportive

[IrocJeff]

Just use the ignore button and mind your own business.  That should solve a lot of these problems. B)

[eezstreet]

All I see in the original topic is someone posting an overly detailed model, people calling him out on it, and then calling other people egotistical and saying "well why can't I do this? Other people like you use 1k verts in your hilts!" which...isn't really valid for starters, just because someone made an overly detailed model doesn't mean that others should follow that example. As @@AshuraDX said, he made several unoptimized models, and through feedback such as minilogoguy18's, he learned to get better and make better optimized models. Isn't that what the point of such feedback is?

 

I mean, regardless of how harsh the feedback is perceived, it still serves a purpose. I could rail you and call your models crap all day (my opinion is not nearly as valid as someone like minilogoguy18 however) and I'd have gotten that same response. I'm going to have to side with minilogoguy and co. here. After reading both sides' reactions, I gotta say that CaptainCrazy really overreacted here. The later ire in the thread was a little uncalled for, yes, but I could argue that it was a reaction to the response to their feedback. I'd probably be pissed if I gave someone a serious point of concern and they called me egotistical and said I wrote unoptimized, buggy code (don't you even, @@Xycaleth )

 

I don't think that responding to legitimate feedback in such a way as it was is something that I can really get behind. It shows both a significant level of insecurity and immaturity. If one can't handle simple criticism, why are they posting in a place where that's the norm? I'd also like to extend on the point I made before: just because one particular person thinks that others is being unsupportive doesn't mean that they are. If I made a really, really shitty map and people said that I had specific things to improve upon, would it be appropriate for me to say "no fack u my map is beautiful, start supporting me like the rules say!"? I certainly don't think so. In fact that would be going against that golden rule that @@Raz0r described.

[Cerez]

All I see in the original topic is someone posting an overly detailed model, people calling him out on it, and then calling other people egotistical and saying "well why can't I do this? Other people like you use 1k verts in your hilts!" which...isn't really valid for starters, just because someone made an overly detailed model doesn't mean that others should follow that example. As @@AshuraDX said, he made several unoptimized models, and through feedback such as minilogoguy18's, he learned to get better and make better optimized models. Isn't that what the point of such feedback is?

 

Eez, I'd like you to consider that Captain tolerated two waves of criticism from two individuals, and then a selfish post about his project being challenged/taken-over by a staff member before reacting the way he did with an presumably exaggerated reaction. I don't feel that the reaction was an overreaction at all. It was quite natural and reasonable considering the circumstances.

 

I also think that staff are not meant to take sides. Isn't that the rule of thumb here? :/ Perhaps these things should better be discussed in a formal setting with all staff present.

[Omicron]

Eez, I'd like you to consider that Captain tolerated two waves of criticism from two individuals, and then a selfish post about his project being challenged/taken-over by a staff member before reacting the way he did with an presumably exaggerated reaction. I don't feel that the reaction was an overreaction at all. It was quite natural and reasonable considering the circumstances.

 

I also think that staff are not meant to take sides. Isn't that the rule of thumb here? :/ Perhaps these things should better be discussed in a formal setting with all staff present.

What does being Ashura being a staff member have anything to do with it? Because of his status, he isn't allowed to state his opinion on the matter, no matter how harsh sounding it may be, and therefore take sides?

[Cerez]

I'm going to have to side with minilogoguy and co. here. After reading both sides' reactions, I gotta say that CaptainCrazy really overreacted here.

[CrimsonStrife]

Eez, I'd like you to consider that Captain tolerated two waves of criticism from two individuals, and then a selfish post about his project being challenged/taken-over by a staff member before reacting the way he did with an presumably exaggerated reaction. I don't feel that the reaction was an overreaction at all. It was quite natural and reasonable considering the circumstances.

 

I also think that staff are not meant to take sides. Isn't that the rule of thumb here? :/ Perhaps these things should better be discussed in a formal setting with all staff present.

As a retired staff member, I can tell you that if we DON'T take sides, things can get just as nasty as when we do. It is a no-win scenario.

 

You're also functioning under the idea that the original comments were negative, when in fact they were not. No one told him that it looks bad, simply that it was not optimized and would cause problems.

It was when Crazy openly rejected the ideas and mocked the practice of them that things became heated from both sides.

 

Neither side was the best at stating their opinions, so neither side is innocent.

 

Had Crazy led the conversation, or corrected Mini and co. early on that this model was destined for something like machinima use, and not for gameplay where performance is key, then much of the optimization talk would likely have never come up.

 

He also needed to understand that no one was insulting his abilities, and indeed none of the posts prior to him becoming defensive (which he does almost immediately) insult the model or him.

 

This, like many of the issues I have witnessed as both Staff and none, stem from people failing to communicate properly, inevitably someone becomes defensive and everyone starts picking sides. But as you will also see in that thread, once I actually explained the performance issues, and just what the limits mean, things seemed to get much more receptive.

 

Everyone needs to just calm the fuck down, learn to read, learn to converse, and stop assuming everyone is out to get them.

[Raz0r]

Yeah.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except I am out to get you.

[CrimsonStrife]

Yeah.Except I am out to get you.

[eezstreet]

Eez, I'd like you to consider that Captain tolerated two waves of criticism from two individuals,

As everyone knows, handling criticism correctly is a feat of strength and lowers your power level, etc

 

and then a selfish post about his project being challenged/taken-over by a staff member

The fact that he's staff is irrelevant. And, his post was meant to be "see? you can make a decent looking model with low polycounts too, it's all about the texture" and ergo prove the point that you don't need to have ridiculous polycounts to make a good looking saber.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that you said:

 

@minilogoguy18, I think that this discussion is pointless and your arguments only serve to discourage the OP.

Not only would that effectively piss off someone (because let's be for real here, you're telling him, "oh, well all you're doing is being mean and your opinions don't matter"), but it gets even worse when you say:

 

If you see ways the model could be improved, support the artist with positive advice. Don't criticise them for their inspiration and desire to do better.

Wow. So telling someone to optimize a model isn't positive advice? There was no criticism against his inspiration and desire to do better (but a more efficient model is better than an unoptimized one? backwards logic methinks) I can totally understand why other people would be pissed off, 100%. Now you're basically saying that other people's advice is null and void because others don't perceive it as being positive.

 

before reacting the way he did with an presumably exaggerated reaction. I don't feel that the reaction was an overreaction at all. It was quite natural and reasonable considering the circumstances.

eh..

 

I suppose that the area below the pins could be replaced by a texture but I'd be sitting back and kicking myself for making such low detailed work, to me it's sloppy.

...basically telling others who make less detailed meshes that they're being sloppy...

 

So one is allowed to have over 1k vertices on a hilt but I make one with 1,200 and it's bad?

...argumentative...

 

You know what?  Discourage me all you want.  This hilt is for a Machinima so there will be a lot of close-ups, it's not for you you wont be using it so why should I even care that you think it's crap?  I'm pleased with it and will be even more so when it's textured.

...assuming that others are out to get them...

 

I've worked on a lot of games mods so if I think that this is good then it's good and egotistical views of others will not change my views.

...calling others egotistical...

 

I swear sometimes you guys are really nice people to talk to and other times you're just opinions are just mean.

...and mean...

 

It will look like total crap close-up and I'm not going to have people think that I couldn't even be bothered to make anything other than a box with a few rectangles glued on top.

...and here we have more harping on other people's work...

 

I've started modelling a hilt of Ahsoka's lightsaber, too. It looks exactly like @AshuraDX's, except I've reduced the vertex count to 10, and I'm going to skin all the 3D stuff just to f@k with you all!

...and here's you being argumentative...

 

"Lightsabers. The weapon of a Jedi knight. An elegant weapon for a more civilized time."

 

...calling people uncivilized...

 

 

I guess threads like this truly prove that we do lack civility and elegance.

 

 

...calling people uncivilized...

 

 

*picks up box, wraps it in tin foil and waves it around*  LOOK I'M A JEDI!

...insulting other people's work...

 

 

I think some people miss the point of what a lightsaber is supposed to look like and would rather it look like a glorified box.  I don't care if people can see it or not I'LL know that it looks like crap and that's not good enough for me.

 

...again...

 

 

Or find ways to push the boundaries of what has been possible so far. (*hint-hint*)

Wait. Actually this is a compliment to other people, so I'm not sure.

 

 

Progress is in the hands of those who dare. The hardcore critic is just a nuisance if he can't expand his mind and see further than his nose.

 

...but this isn't.

 

You know, maybe you're right, maybe he (and you for that matter) aren't overreacting. But what do I know?

The simple fact that this has evolved into a multi-thread saga is proof enough that it was a complete overreaction. If he simply said "oh, okay, I'll reduce the polycount there, thanks for the tip ashura" this wouldn't have been an issue at all. But again, what do I know?

 

 

I also think that staff are not meant to take sides. Isn't that the rule of thumb here? :/ Perhaps these things should better be discussed in a formal setting with all staff present.

It's my personal opinion, not the opinion of the entire staff. We haven't even discussed this thread. But just a tip though: if you're wanting respect, you should pay it forward instead of shitting on other people and calling their opinions invalid. That's typically how that works.

[Xycaleth]

I'll just leave this here...

 

http://xkcd.com/386/

[CrimsonStrife]

In the immortal words of Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw,

 

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't"

And also

 

"If I put people's balls in my mouth for a living I'd be a prostitute, or possibly a GameStop employee. But I criticize, so I'm a critic."

[Mandalorian]

circle reasoning is happening here. This will continue on and on infinite and escalate further. It's best just to realise that no harm was directly intended and that should be damn well good enough, otherwise people will avoid working with you and let you release content without any review, which is worse than a few insensitive criticisms.

As well as withering chances of collaborating with other forum members. I am not attacking you at this point but i am sure if you feel that way, I am suggesting that you are definitely automatically defensive, and you need to self examine and see the fault is the handling of your own emotions

Was the criticism patronising, it probably came across that way and may of been, but it's intention is clearly to be constructive, for the positive.

[CaptainCrazy]

So you're saying he didn't make that with intentions of posting on the file section all shined up and everything therefore making my work null and void?

 

Okay cool!

 

GAH whatever I don't even care anymore I was only doing it to help somebody and at least he thinks it's great and that's all that matters.

[Ping]

Him creating and uploading a superior version of a hilt is a fantastic opportunity to learn what makes his work better and thus improve your own craft. It is also a great opportunity to throw a hissy fit and point fingers at people for being mean.

[CaptainCrazy]

Yeh because you know everything about modeling, the list of files you've uploaded is insane!

 

As for the rest of you I'm sorry if there's been a lack of understanding I know you meant well and perhaps I should have stated that it is for a Machinima.  I believe that if I were making it for use in this actual game and not Machinima then I'd have taken poly count into consideration.  Next time I shall not show work until I am certain that your advice has been considered into it.

 

Ping, I temporarily unblocked you because I thought you may have matured since day one pretty much the day I thought "Now there's somebody worth blocking and no mistake!"

 

You're the sort of person who jumps into a fight and jabs people in the side once everybody else has landed the punches and done your fighting for you. So you go back onto my block list.

 

I'm going to go work on some projects now so I wont be back to the forum for a while, maybe I'll just get back to what I was originally doing and pretty much what I know.

 

Maybe it was foolish of me to think that I could adapt to an engine with such a low polygon count but you guys are obviously great at it and I respect you for that

 

Cheerio!

[CrimsonStrife]

Yeh because you know everything about modeling, the list of files you've uploaded is insane!

Is this not the exact attitude that started all of this?

[Omicron]

Yeh because you know everything about modeling, the list of files you've uploaded is insane!

So because he doesn't model means he can't see the advantages he is referencing?

[Mandalorian]

Okay I kind of see your point.

Did you see why he did that? 

Do you also see how your reacting? It comes across as narcissistic. Your self victimising this situation.

 

So you're saying he didn't make that with intentions of posting on the file section all shined up and everything therefore making my work null and void?

It seemed patronising, yes. Did you talk to him about it in a pm or would you prefer a whole bunch of forum members to argue over it?

 

If I created work that was made null and void, sure my hard work would be null and void but a better product would exist and someone who cares about the same product is revealed to you, In this case someone who is experienced with this game.

 

GAH whatever I don't even care anymore I was only doing it to help somebody and at least he thinks it's great and that's all that matters.

 

Well then that's good. That's the outcome you intended, to get the person what they wanted and they got it. It wasn't to gain respect for your own talents, was it?

I still think the intent was to make a point to you. 

I think I'll stop here. hope this is the last post on this and you can settle it privately.

[Cerez]

You guys are jerks. There's just no sense of decency here. If you had wanted to right the wrongs and be fair, you would have taken steps to make sure that people don't feel this kind of abuse.

 

Just so you don't say I didn't warn you, abuse on the Internet is just as much a crime as abuse in real life, and one of you will end up in a lawsuit one of these days because of your ignorance.

 

I'm outta here, this is just not worth my time. There are better communities out there, and better people who tolerate each others' presence and actually work together to achieve things instead of pissing on each other to no end in order to satisfy their own egos and I don't know what else. I am fully disgusted with your attitudes.

 

Crimson, I'm sorry but I don't feel that your assessment is entirely just. I know you have the best of intentions, and you're one person I actually honestly respect in this community, but I must say that I sincerely feel that CaptainCrazy is just as much a victim as all those who have left before him and that there is something seriously wrong with your attitude here guys.

 

For all my efforts I have spent here I don't see much appreciation. I think most of you are incredibly selfish and should be ashamed of yourselves. (Apologies to the few decent people who still stick around and tolerate all the bullshit they have to deal with every day from jerks around here. Don't put up with it guys, just leave. Form your own community site with actually decent rules that make sure no-one gets hurt. It's not that hard. Don't let a bunch of hypocrites dictate what is right and what is wrong for your work. Most of them are not as experienced as they make themselves out to be -- especially if their ego is more important than their work.)

 

 

“Egotist, n. A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me.” ~ Ambrose Bierce

 

I'm done. Gone. Out.

[Ping]

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[Mandalorian]

Don't be a jerk. 

[Ping]

How dare you, I'll sue you for your ignorant selfish abuse!

[eezstreet]

I think there's nothing more to say about this.