Payments, Ownership and Copyright

[Cerez]

Copyright doesn't just disappear overnight. In most of the cases it gets transferred onto another individual/company.

 

they no longer exist as a developer, but Disney kept them as a legal entity which licenses out the IP to other developers.

 

References:

http://www.thewrap.com/media/article/lucasarts-cease-making-games-will-lay-most-staff-83891/

http://www.cnet.com/news/disney-shuttering-lucasarts-moving-to-licensed-games-model/

 

And from the looks of it, neither do large companies/identities.

 

For copyright to expire, it either needs to be abandoned for a long time (over 20 years), or the original copyright holder needs to explicitly give up their rights, and that means legally stating that they no longer wish to have legal ownership of the intellectual property or artwork.

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

[eezstreet]

give me a price @@eezstreet and i will think about it

Hmm..

$0.50 USD per line?

$10 USD per bug fixed that isn't my own?

 

Dunno, just coming up with crap numbers.

[Futuza]

Hmm..

$0.50 USD per line?

$10 USD per bug fixed that isn't my own?

 

Dunno, just coming up with crap numbers.

I can teach you new unique coding practices to increase your line count.  

[eezstreet]

I can teach you new unique coding practices to increase your line count.  

Add __asm { nop } everywhere?

Add comments everywhere?

[Omicron]

Add __asm { nop } everywhere?

Add comments everywhere?

Ascii art comment lines

[Stoiss]

Hmm..

$0.50 USD per line?

$10 USD per bug fixed that isn't my own?

 

Dunno, just coming up with crap numbers.

haha naaah i would offer 0.25$ pr. function and 0.50$ pr. bug you find thats not you own xP

[Sithani]

I think it's not ok to actually SELL a modification... But AFAIK the whole discussion started out as kenoi's request for just a 3D model for which he wanted to pay. IMO it's nothing wrong, it's normal that people pay 3D artists for making a specific model for them. So it's for his own use and he can do whatever he likes with it.

[CrimsonStrife]

I think it's not ok to actually SELL a modification... But AFAIK the whole discussion started out as kenoi's request for just a 3D model for which he wanted to pay. IMO it's nothing wrong, it's normal that people pay 3D artists for making a specific model for them. So it's for his own use and he can do whatever he likes with it.

True, except he wanted the model of a copyrighted character, which while paying for such a thing is widely practiced, it IS by law a violation of copyrights.

 

Not to mention, he would still have needed the model rigged and placed in game, a task that he would either be paying the same person for or finding someone that would do it for free.

 

The fact of the matter is, even making such a model for free is a copyright violation, just one not likely to be enforced. Which is why we can do it.

[Cerez]

Well said, @@CrimsonStrife. I intended to pay a model-maker to make and rig a model for in-game use, but I wasn't aware of the full legal implications of such an offer. Any copyrighted material is the property of the copyright holder, and any creative based on that copyrighted material is questionable in nature, and its fate is fully controllable by the copyright owner. By paying for the making of such art you are endangering the intercepting engagement of the copyright holder.

 

If the copyright holder requests that content be pulled down, or removed from circulation, you must abide by their request immediately.

 

However, it is perfectly alright to sell your own creative work that you have created from completely original material, and it seems certain mods may be considered to have an option for sale.

[Sithani]

True, except he wanted the model of a copyrighted character, which while paying for such a thing is widely practiced, it IS by law a violation of copyrights.

 

Not to mention, he would still have needed the model rigged and placed in game, a task that he would either be paying the same person for or finding someone that would do it for free.

 

The fact of the matter is, even making such a model for free is a copyright violation, just one not likely to be enforced. Which is why we can do it.

So basically every model of a COPYRIGHTED character is illegal? Then I don't see why @ got so hated in that topic. I don't think that's true. You're saying I, for example, can't make a model of Vader just for myself and play with it because I'm violating the copyright? Then why this place even exists with so many Star Wars models? Also, JK2Files exists for a loooong time, even when all those EULAs and such existed and still applied. Why no claims were ever upheld?

[CrimsonStrife]

I'm going to point you back to my earlier post. The reason these freely produced items get a pass is because they are at that point more costly on both a financial and social level than they are worth.

 

It's when money comes into play that it is an issue.

 

 

I originally had edited this into my previous post, but given the replies since, I moved it here:

 

I dug around for a bit and found some articles that can kinda shed some light on why this is viewed as a negative thing:

 

While technically aimed at 'fan-art' (which is also technically what this would be considered) this is what the law says:

 

According to copyright law, copyright holders have the sole right to distribute derivative works based on an original creation. This includes sequels and any other work that includes copyright-able elements from the original creation.

As was confirmed in the “Catcher in the Rye” case, characters can be granted copyright protection as can many other non-expression elements of the original work. This is furthered that most fan creations are built upon plot elements and other copyright-able parts of the original material.

That being said, fair use may protect some fan creations from being an infringement, but that is handled on a case-by-case basis, looking at the facts of the actual work. However, most fan creations, by their very nature, don’t parody or criticize the source material, which would provide a great deal of protection, nor are they highly trans-formative, meaning that they are less likely to win in the even that such a suit takes place. It is also worth noting that fan fiction and fan art can be a trademark violation as well, especially if it uses names and titles in a way that causes confusion as to whether they are official. Trademark disputes over fan creations are rare, but still possible. (Essentially, simply calling a character in a fan creation by their actual name could be considered in violation of this, depending on how it was depicted)

 

Yet, despite a relatively strong legal position, lawsuits over fan fiction and fan art are extremely rare. This is especially odd considering that many of the rights holders who are the most common target of fan creations are also among those most aggressive at stopping other infringement of their work.

 

So the question you're probably asking now @, is why has fan art, and the selling and commissioning of it, thrived?

 

It is kind of an "unspoken rule", from a copyright holder viewpoint, fan fiction and art is usually not very harmful. Fans create works that are openly recognized to be non-canon to the story and are not replacements for the original. In fact, some feel these fan communities actually serve a valuable service to copyright holders by providing a thriving site for fans to visit, keeping them entertained and engage between official releases. In short, since fan creations don’t take away sales of the original work, they are often seen as free promotion and a way to grow the brand without cost or effort.

 

The bigger issue, however, is the cost of going to war with fans. Being litigious with creators of fan art can be very costly, not just in terms of court costs, but in terms of backlash. No creator wants to sue their fans, especially when the fans aren’t earning revenue, and as such most creators will tolerate fan fiction and art under most circumstances.

Some even go as far as to create fan site kits, for the purpose of aiding the creation of fan Web sites.

 

Fan fiction and fan art communities, in turn, usually have a set of rules that they follow to preserve their symbiotic relationship.

First, they agree to not profit from or sell copies of their creations. Though some of the communities run ads to cover hosting costs, most do not turn any profit and the individual authors never sell their works. Second, they always proclaim that their work is unofficial and has no connection with the creators. Finally, they respond to requests from the copyright holder to remove content and work with the creator as needed.

In short, the community works to ensure they don’t hurt the original creator’s ability to profit from the work and the creator tolerates what is technically a copyright infringement in many cases.

 

Granted, not every fan artist who sells copies of works is pursued, Magic the Gathering, for example, seems to have many artists that sell fan art of the cards but Wizards of the Coast, the makers of the game, don’t seem to actively be pursuing (at least not that I've heard).

Still, that is the most common tipping point between when a fan creation goes from being a “tolerated infringement” to a legal matter.

That being said though, every creator has right to make the choice for themselves where they want the line drawn and to enforce that line as they see fit, an important thing to remember when dealing with fan fiction and fan art.

 

The key point to remember is this: Fan fiction and fan art are, usually, an infringement of the right of the copyright holder to prepare and license derivative works based on the original. This is almost without exception.

However, many copyright holders, for good reasons, tolerate fan art and even encourage it, but this should not be taken as a free-pass to do what you want with the source material. There are many lines that a fan artist can cross and wind up in legal trouble.

Your best bet is to study the rules for your community and obey them closely. If you do that, you should be fine but always remember that your creations only exist through the good graces of the copyright holder and they can change their mind at any point.

 

 

tl;dr version:

 

It is a big messy grey area.

[Cerez]

Why no claims were ever upheld?

 

Simply because no-one from LucasArts could be bothered going around shutting down mods that were not endangering their interests, to put it in layman's terms.

 

Any creative work based on copyrighted material or intellectual property is an artwork whose fate is controlled by the copyright holder, and whose nature is legally questionable.

 

Then I don't see why @ got so hated in that topic.

That would be because some people here are quite immature in their approach to dealing with conflicting views to their own. >.<'

[CrimsonStrife]

Simply because no-one from LucasArts could be bothered going around shutting down mods that were not endangering their interests, to put it in layman's terms.

 

Any creative work based on copyrighted material or intellectual property is an artwork whose fate is controlled by the copyright holder, and whose nature is legally questionable.

Exactly, doing so would cost them time and legal fees. Which is pointless on something with no money involved. It would also have resulted in a backlash from the fan base, and been a PR nightmare.

[Psyk0Sith]

So if i design alien species that are not present in SW universe i can get paid for the models?

 

Edit: wow didn't see the thread was that old lol.

[Cerez]

So if i design alien species that are not present in SW universe i can get paid for the models?

 

Edit: wow didn't see the thread was that old lol.

 

In theory, yes. You'd have to check that you have the required commercial license for all tools/resources and assets you are using during the production of the artwork, but yes, since it is entirely your creation, you could charge for your services if you choose to do so.

[CrimsonStrife]

So if i design alien species that are not present in SW universe i can get paid for the models?

 

Edit: wow didn't see the thread was that old lol.

 

The models themselves?  Certainly.  As long as you never attempted to relate them to a copyrighted universe.  I.E. You couldn't design a non-SW alien, and pretend it was one, because then you'd be using the Star Wars brand.

 

If you're talking about the mods that include said models.  I.E. actually putting them in game:

Well based on my understanding of it, the EULA for this game doesn't technically forbid that, so you probably could, but I don't think you'd ever get people to pay the kind of money needed to make it worth it.  This would be a more legal gray area then the former.

[Cerez]

If you're talking about the mods that include said models.  I.E. actually putting them in game:

Well based on my understanding of it, the EULA for this game doesn't technically forbid that, so you probably could, but I don't think you'd ever get people to pay the kind of money needed to make it worth it.  This would be a more legal gray area then the former.

 

Well, since the EULA does not state you can't, and you are legally entitled to selling your own artwork and/or art services, I don't see that there could be an issue -- with the exception of having to use software and resources that were provided by Raven/LucasArts to produce the in-game finished art. You'd need to double-check that the EULA for those software/resources does not forbid such commercial use of the work.

 

That would be the last legal barrier. Then, as long as your artwork is original and doesn't relate to copyrighted material, you are free to do as you wish with it.

 

If you could use entirely open-source and free license software to produce the in-game results, that would effectively skip this last step of potential controversy.

[AshuraDX]

If you could use entirely open-source and free license software to produce the in-game results, that would effectively skip this last step of potential controversy.

 

that's not impossible actually, any kind of vehicle or creature that utilises a custom skeleton with custom animations and was exported via MrWonko's blender plugin should fall into that category, as long as the other prerequisites are met

[Cerez]

that's not impossible actually, any kind of vehicle or creature that utilises a custom skeleton with custom animations and was exported via MrWonko's blender plugin should fall into that category, as long as the other prerequisites are met

 

Yep, then there would be no legal barrier. Even the game's source has been released under a GNU GPL 2 license -- which means the software and modifications to it can be sold. The only things that are still the exclusive property of LucasArts/LucasFilm and require their permission for use are the game's original assets and the Star Wars universe with all its names, events, locations, and characters, etc.

 

Practically, you could create your own game from the JKA source, create a new world and matching new game assets, and sell it as your own creation as long as you pass on the source code with the same open license to everyone else.

 

Or in this case, you are free to create your own assets for the game and sell them as long as you're not infringing on anyone's intellectual property (copyright). And it seems like you're not, so that leaves you with a green light.

 

That said, I'm no lawyer, so you need to check the legal facts for yourself.

[eezstreet]

The GPL only applies to the source code, not the game itself. Just keep that in mind.

 

I'm not sure why you'd create a game based on JA's engine though, it's so poorly optimized and buggy that you'd be fighting to actually get your game at a playable FPS more than anything.

[Cerez]

The GPL only applies to the source code, not the game itself. Just keep that in mind.

 

Yes, I was talking about the source code, not the assets.

 

I'm not sure why you'd create a game based on JA's engine though, it's so poorly optimized and buggy that you'd be fighting to actually get your game at a playable FPS more than anything. 

 

If you wanted to create a sword-fighting or FPS game with supernatural/psychic powers, for example. I can actually imagine a Dune adaptation using the JKA source, for instance (though that would require legal permission from whoever holds the rights to Frank Herbert's novel and its intellectual content now).

[eezstreet]

Off topic posts by me and others removed. Sorry about that, @@Cerez

[Cerez]

Thanks Eez.