most skilled gametypes I've ever encountered in JKA

[Xycaleth]

You're still not comparing You state the skills needed for full forcing, but don't say how they differ from sabers. Sabering requires the same skills, except perhaps the reflexes (at least in my experience).

[Jango40]

MB2 is hard in it's own way..

 

End this thread already, pls. No reason to continue, really

 

and @@Ping stop trolling plox

[Ping]

@@Xycaleth: Oh trust me, if you play a highly reactive style (-especially- with staff), then what you do next is very often decided in a split second by your opponent's actions. If he starts a jump, you only have a tiny window of opportunity to start your own jump in such a way that puts you in a position that can land you a hit. If he does a short hop with a right swing in red stance for example, there is a split second that you can exploit to hit him as he is moving towards you in midair with a yellow swing without getting hit yourself. In fact, midairs would be entirely impossible without good reflexes, since they oftentimes require you to jump at almost the same time as your opponent, but they're nowadays a staple of high level sabering. I'd say some of the skills required for good midairs are actually unique here, since you don't for example have to intercept other players with your character in CTF to score a midair (but, for example, you do have to anticipate their position based on their trajectory and also the position of your own projectile across time, something that is similar to timing your swing in midair).

 

On that note, I'm not even sure how prevalent midairs are on the US servers anymore, since the US sabering scene pretty much collapsed around 2009 and hasn't produced any high level players (or clans) ever since. But this harkens back to exactly the thing @@Hugo said about insular communities and how they are not even aware of their own limited perspective.

 

@@Jango40: SORRY LOL

[Xycaleth]

@@Xycaleth: Oh trust me, if you play a highly reactive style (-especially- with staff), then what you do next is very often decided in a split second by your opponent's actions. [...]

So this is why I'm not very good with sabers

[Guest Deleted]

Let me just say I don't consider myself the most skilled player and obviously I'm not; it's a little too late to actually "compete" in a casualized Star Wars game with hardly any prize pools (don't think there ever was a prize pool), no LANS, or remaining communities in competitive mods; besides jaPro for DeFrag.

 

Everyone is always quick so dismiss FullForce (with kickflip enabled) I believe. I think they assume its too spammy (it can be, but that isn't really an excuse), theres more scripters/cheaters (however that exists in every gametype, like lowjump script in nf), or the trollish/thick skinned community. Could be a number of different reasons.

 

I've always thought FF was more skilled than NF/CTF because strafing matters more to get away or chase, more choice of weapons and combinations, and there are more things to master. Obv. some mechanics are shared in NF/FF/CTF. Its hard to explain it all in one post and its something you really need to experience and learn. For the different things/moves to master ill just list: pullkick, gripkick, kickflip itself, pull throw (saber throw) kick, strafing, drainlocking, anti-drain (various methods), proper fanning/poking/sabering, along with timing all of that. It all goes hand in hand really.

 

When I look at base saber only, I see lightsaber only, different blocking mechanics, different positioning, more air jump hits, different parrying, and using less of the map given compared to FF. It's really hard compare specifically as settings vary from server to server and mod to mod, but those are some of things I notice. If you think I'm being unfair or I left something out, then let me know. Yes, I understand that more gameplay mechanics =/ better, but for FF I would say it is. I'll also say that base is/was the most competitive because of ESL, but not the most skilled.

 

Now with strafing as a separate gametype, I would consider it very high up with with FF. Strafing requires the most aim out of any gametype and that's why I think its the most skilled out of the rest of the gametypes, except maybe FF and Guns. I haven't played enough of guns to say anything, but have watched enough of it. With strafing you need a good circlejump, a good route, proper strafe-jump style (for the circumstance), and aim. Ping/latency also matters much less compared to other gametypes since you aren't engaging with anyone. I've not seen many players that can strafe as well as Source, but would like to be proven wrong http://www.upsgaming.com/stats/races.php?username=source

 

So, without nitpicking anything else and making this post any longer than it already is, I invite any of you to come to the .ups Hangout Server to strafe and try to beat some top times. There is just too much to compare and go on about with the gametypes, but I mostly agree with Kane & Source's opinion.

[Ping]

@: I'm very sure that nobody here on JKHub thinks that strafing or fullforce take no skill or are somehow dismissive of them. I believe it's clear that everyone can appreciate that both of them take a lot of time, practice and effort to master and that both require a lot of thinking and mechanical skill to excel at. I myself can greatly appreciate the amount of skill it takes to do even a single well-executed strafe jump, let alone finish some of the strafing maps out there (which I could never do because I really suck at them). However, the thing some people are confused about here, including myself, is the claim that any gametype can take more skill than any other. I mean, in order to argue for that, we'd somehow have to convert skill caps into numbers and then compare them, but this seems incredibly hard to do, let alone figuring out what the skill cap for a gametype actually is and what factors add to it and so on.

 

For example, you seem to know NF sabers pretty well, but even you don't feel confident to judge on the things that make up the gametype in its entirety, and trust me, even though I've played on the ESL since 2005, I myself am not confident to judge on what really makes up the gametype either. But then we don't just have to figure that out, we -also- have to figure out how those aspects influence the skill cap (the maximum amount of skill possible), and -then- ontop of that assign skill caps a number before we can compare them across gametypes.

 

There is really a lot of work and discussion to be done and some might even think it cannot be done at all. In light of that, why not just settle for a moderate position and merely say that both gametypes are just really really hard to master and require a lot of skill, maybe even different types of skills that are incomparable, so that some people will do well at one because they just have a talent for that but not at the other and vice versa. We can extend that to other gametypes as well, like CTF and so on. Of course there could be some differences in the skill caps between the gametypes and I'm sure there are, but since they are all very hard to do well at and require skills that are not comparable to one another, we could just set that aside and instead just raise awareness about how difficult our own gametype is.

[Kane]

@: I'm very sure that nobody here on JKHub thinks that strafing or fullforce take no skill or are somehow dismissive of them. I believe it's clear that everyone can appreciate that both of them take a lot of time, practice and effort to master and that both require a lot of thinking and mechanical skill to excel at. I myself can greatly appreciate the amount of skill it takes to do even a single well-executed strafe jump, let alone finish some of the strafing maps out there (which I could never do because I really suck at them). However, the thing some people are confused about here, including myself, is the claim that any gametype can take more skill than any other. I mean, in order to argue for that, we'd somehow have to convert skill caps into numbers and then compare them, but this seems incredibly hard to do, let alone figuring out what the skill cap for a gametype actually is and what factors add to it and so on.

 

For example, you seem to know NF sabers pretty well, but even you don't feel confident to judge on the things that make up the gametype in its entirety, and trust me, even though I've played on the ESL since 2005, I myself am not confident to judge on what really makes up the gametype either. But then we don't just have to figure that out, we -also- have to figure out how those aspects influence the skill cap (the maximum amount of skill possible), and -then- ontop of that assign skill caps a number before we can compare them across gametypes.

 

There is really a lot of work and discussion to be done and some might even think it cannot be done at all. In light of that, why not just settle for a moderate position and merely say that both gametypes are just really really hard to master and require a lot of skill, maybe even different types of skills that are incomparable, so that some people will do well at one because they just have a talent for that but not at the other and vice versa. We can extend that to other gametypes as well, like CTF and so on. Of course there could be some differences in the skill caps between the gametypes and I'm sure there are, but since they are all very hard to do well at and require skills that are not comparable to one another, we could just set that aside and instead just raise awareness about how difficult our own gametype is.

 

All gametypes require skill to master, i agree with that and there's no perfect equivalency, but some gametypes have lower learning curves, lower skill caps, and matches are more close no matter what skill level someone is at. whether it's kills, caps, or strafe times, you can judge how good a player is at a certain gametype by how he plays and comparing him to other players, i just personally found some gametypes had less of a learning curve , that's all, while i wouldnt consider myself top 3 or even top 5 in basers, i  nf'd casually a few years ago for a few days with ups, never actually played base or did ja+ NF seriously and i was challenged by a few mid-level /high level esl players and beat them all. that's why i believe sabers only has less "skill" involved, because it's hard NOT to manage a few kills on your opponent, and if you based for a solid week you'd be able to get at least 5-6 on your opponent but if you ff'd for a solid month you would still never get a kill on a top-tier player in a race to 5 or 10 per say...  while i disagree that all gametypes have equivalent skill-levels or cant be transferred over to other game-types (if you have good aim @ strafing you'll be decent at guns(or at least hit-scan guns)) , i'll agree that each gametype take a degree of skill to become the best at

 

 

Now with strafing as a separate gametype, I would consider it very high up with with FF. Strafing requires the most aim out of any gametype and that's why I think its the most skilled out of the rest of the gametypes, except maybe FF and Guns. I haven't played enough of guns to say anything, but have watched enough of it. With strafing you need a good circlejump, a good route, proper strafe-jump style (for the circumstance), and aim. Ping/latency also matters much less compared to other gametypes since you aren't engaging with anyone. I've not seen many players that can strafe as well as Source Kane, but would like to be proven wrong http://www.upsgaming.com/stats/races.php?username=source

 

So, without nitpicking anything else and making this post any longer than it already is, I invite any of you to come to the .ups Hangout Server to strafe and try to beat some top times. There is just too much to compare and go on about with the gametypes, but I mostly agree with Kane & Source's opinion.

 

 Very good post there pivot, fixed a little thing there, but  i'll extend that invitation to FF/guns too :-). 

[Ping]

Yeah if you look at an ESL match between a bad player and a really good one and see scores of 10/6 and 10/5, it does seem like the game was close or that the bad player managed to do somehow well, but getting those kills in is just part of the way sabering works as a gametype. If I strafe a map against a really good player who is twice as fast as me and he finishes it in 7.0 while I take 14.0, it might seem close because 7 seconds is not a very large amount of time, but we both know that 7s is gigantic in the context of strafing.

 

There is after all a world of difference between finishing 14.0 and 7.0, just as there is between finishing 10/6 and actually winning the match. It takes months if not years of practice to go from 14.0 to 7.0, just as it takes months if not years to win a match on the ESL against any genuinely mid-tier player like Trey, Samix or Borka, let alone any high-tier ones. In fact, for 98% of all people sabering right now, it's downright impossible to win a match against any high level player at all if they play at their best, regardless of how much the others might practice. Consider that someone like Dureal was running a score of 310 wins to 4 losses on the ESL 1v1 ladder during a time when JKA was really popular and everyone played +5 hours everyday. This is even more extreme in 2v2 and 3v3, where 2v2 teams can go on ratios like 34 wins with 0 losses on the ladder (zero+mrl) and axiom's 3v3 one ended with 119 wins to 13 over a period of 4 years playing the very best of the best in the world. That kind of dominance would be impossible without an insane skill cap, but this dominance is not reflected too much in the scores of each individual match because that's just the way the gametype works.

[afi]

Against really bad players it's still possible to win with 10/0 or 10/1. Did that a couple of times actually. But once they reach a certain skill level it's really hard to do that without getting really passive.

But the point is that the score doesn't really matter as long as you win the match, so most players don't give 100% when they know the opponent is inferior (and most players, including myself only played serious in ESL or cup matches anyway). A good player who want's to win and stays concentrated will never lose against a less-skilled/experienced opponent even if the scores are close. That's why you can finish 100 matches against someone like Dureal with a score of 10/6 without ever getting the chance to win. What is pretty much what Ping said.

[ShakeThatSalt]

 

 

On that note, I'm not even sure how prevalent midairs are on the US servers anymore, since the US sabering scene pretty much collapsed around 2009 and hasn't produced any high level players (or clans) ever since. But this harkens back to exactly the thing @@Hugo said about insular communities and how they are not even aware of their own limited perspective.

 

 

I started JKA January, 2011. I've been #1 on ESL 1v1, along with two other of my American friends (Water, Crimelord) both have which got #1 after 2009. With that being said, I have much more experience and insight in comparing both communities (EU and USA base). Given this, I play EU base often, and I can tell you, the top USA players are FAR superior than the EU top players. So yes, Hugo is correct, YOUR perspective is incredibly limited. Especially since JKA has evolved since you were "good" (enormous of emphasis on the quotation marks) at the game.  I don't want to sound like a douche (too late, right?), but I would happily destroy you or any EU player anytime (I'll play you on EU too!) to prove my point further. However, I digress as this game is COMPLETELY dead now and none of you have the talent or courage to play me, frankly. 

 

Now back to the topic: Obviously - all the game-types require skill in different areas; there's no way you could possibly make an objective list (I still love you, Kane <3). 

 

Oh, ups also is overall the most talented/skilled community in the entire game. I know this because I'm stupid enough to still play this game everyday and know/experienced every community in this strange game. 

 

 

- shake, the cutest Jedi, 2011-eternity

[Ping]

Water was never even close to #1 and actually had a pretty bad run on the ESL in general, so this claim is already false. I'll give you that Crimelord did rather well for a short time, but he was also widely known to have been a cheater. On the other hand, all of the teams he played on lost pretty hard almost all the time: here, here, here, here, here (this one with robb and zyyne), here and in the JNC where he almost lost even on the US server to the Germans.

 

Speaking of teams, the team made up of pretty much everyone you and Kane claim were so very good, namely Water, Crimelord, Shake, but also Kush and others, lost even on the US server against Trey and his guys on two occasions; here and here. That's a pretty bad record.

 

As for you Shake, the highest you ever got to was rank #18. That's pretty far away from #1. So unless you have another account (which I doubt), you've been making a lot of false claims. Who would have thought?

[z3filus]

[afi]

This guy is obviously a troll. As Ping pointed out these players mentioned are a joke. If I remember correctly Crimelord was even banned for cheating.

[Ping]

Actually, now that you mention it, I looked around a bit and Crimelord was indeed banned from the ESL for 2 years following allegations of cheating. It was from 11.2009 to 11.2011. That's a pretty significant hit to his credibility as a player and puts his past and future performances into a bad light.

[Kane]

Actually, now that you mention it, I looked around a bit and Crimelord was indeed banned from the ESL for 2 years following allegations of cheating. It was from 11.2009 to 11.2011. That's a pretty significant hit to his credibility as a player and puts his past and future performances into a bad light.

 

you realize random matches recorded on a website that doesn't keep archives or demos or any current or old matches is not accurate, right lol.. just making sure, because ive seen shake beat players newer than that time, and he raped your best player 10-2 so.. yeah 

 

http://www.esl.eu/eu/jkja/1on1saber/ladder/ - 404 not found

404 not found on pretty much every page on this site... 

 

also, mad tears @ crimelord lol. did someone lose 10-0 to him or something. what do you mean by cheating because everytime i go to a base server someone is using a pokebot, autoparry, timenudge hack, lowjumpscript, etc.only legit basers i know are shake and snow

 

cry

 

 

http://www.nationalesl.com/us/team/matches/6349778/ - the link  u gave me is just some guy named creepdog that has 1 match on the website and he's european, what is this supposed to be?? do not see shake or crimelords name anywhere. this is why µps is vastly superior when it comes to tracking competitive stuff, we have accurate stats page, tons of fullforce demos, and /dftop10 to track strafe times... esl could learn something here lol

[Kane]

Oh btw, the americans on ESL ladders were so good that they raped the euros so bad on their own server, the euros decided 2 stop letting the Americans play in esl because they  couldnt win anymore. so they just labeled every American a cheater, (ironic because euros are the biggest cheaters on jka in any gametype, in eu fullforce half of their players aimbot, in contrast, only 3 americans  out of 150+ have aimbotted in history of usa ff)

 

btw shake never played in the JNC, you should try harder with making up lies. stats in esl got invalidated when they didnt let the most skilled players play, all thats recorded is shitty matches of east-europeans

[Ping]

btw shake never played in the JNC, you should try harder with making up lies.

Never said he did, since I was talking about Crimelord in my third sentence.

 

 

http://www.nationale...atches/6349778/ - the link  u gave me is just some guy named creepdog that has 1 match on the website and he's european, what is this supposed to be?? do not see shake or crimelords name anywhere. this is why µps is vastly superior when it comes to tracking competitive stuff, we have accurate stats page, tons of fullforce demos, and /dftop10 to track strafe times... esl could learn something here lol

It's not a guy but a team, and if you click on that little tab that says "history" it will show you that it was a 2v2 team that Crimelord was a player of.

 

The ESL is actually pretty cool like that because it does keep all played matches and their outcomes archived, even for deleted accounts. The design is a bit awkward, but it displays and keeps record of all the matches of every ladder and tournament that a player participated in (and of all of his teams). The match pages are not accessible for ladders that are closed, but arguing that they are therefore somehow unreliable is pretty desperate. I'm glad you didn't come to defend water though, who also has a bit of a record of falsifying data by editing out all of his losses from screenshots and posting about it on the forums of various JA+ clans. There seems to be something of an interesting theme of people associated with you guys making exaggerated and downright false statements here.

[Kane]

Never said he did, since I was talking about Crimelord in my third sentence.

 

The ESL is actually pretty cool like that because it does keep all played matches and their outcomes archived, even for deleted accounts. It displays and keeps record of all the matches of every ladder and tournament that a player participated in. The match pages are not accessible for ladders that are closed, but arguing that they are therefore somehow unreliable is pretty desperate. I'm glad you didn't come to defend water though, who also has a bit of a record of falsifying data by editing out all of his losses from screenshots and posting about it on the forums of various JA+ clans. There seems to be something of an interesting theme of people associated with you guys making exaggerated and downright false statements here.

 

Like I said, you're free to bring any player to fight me in fullforce, usa/eu, settings are irrelevant, ds/ls dont matter either, same applies to strafing, guns, etc. guarantee you that no-one you will ever  list will beat me. anyways, esl does NOT keep an archive, i clicked the archive button, it says no matches found, some have accounts deleted, all of crimelords matches say 'MATCH DELETED' (literally all of them when i click unranked, archive page says 404), every ladder page i go to says 404, all matches are corrupted, esl site has the worst layout possible

 

Oh. I read that last sentence a few times before i realized. you're saying water makes up scores, and shake rapes water, and then you say because shake beats water, we make up scores (??) because water makes up scores?   don't really follow the logic but  ok buddy lol. anyways,water isnt the greatest but he would destroy you, he was #1 for a time i think (let me guess, his account is gone now too) and beat all the europeans in the 1o1 ladder

 

edit - saw the video, dunno if its fake or not, dont really care, but crimelords ranking is #1, so i guess he was the best in ESL even with mad players trying to delete his matches

[afi]

The matches are deleted because the ladder doesn't exist anymore. All we are saying is that these players are bad, nothing more. Crimelord is the only one even worth mentioning but then again he's a cheater. Your crying won't change anything about that.

Can we finally close this topic now? I mean, in the beginning it was quite funny seeing these guys coming up with random stuff but now it's getting really silly. This kid is probably 12 years old judging from the last posts, so it would be better not to give him anymore room for this nonsense.

[Kane]

The matches are deleted because the ladder doesn't exist anymore. All we are saying is that these players are bad, nothing more. Chill, your crying won't change anything about that.

Can we finally close this topic now? I mean, in the beginning it was quite funny seeing these guys coming up with random stuff but now it's getting really silly.

 

The matches are deleted because the ladder doesn't exist anymore.

 

Oops, my bad. Let me remove all my FF demos since ff isnt active anymore and some of those players are gone. i might have 1 or 2 demos of me losing back when i first started FF, ill throw those away, those races(ladders) dont exist anymore! xD

 

 

if you dont like the topic go somewhere else, you're the one who was crying and making shit up about ESL ranking, i proved you wrong and i'm not even a baser, all i did was check the rankings and deleted matches and all i see is crimelord and shake raping in every ladder (oh theyre deleted now because americans won them)

 

None of it was random in the beginning, i made the tie-fighter comparison as a joke but everything else was legit.

[Barricade24]

Okay, we're done here.