Strange map leak on one wall of map

[OCD2]

Hello,

Im an aspiring mapper,  building out a smaller obj map.

Its still in the early stages, the layout is still being changed, and placeholder textures and lighting are in place - more rooms, custom shaders, textures, and an intro cutscreen to be included over time..   

Everything was going smooth enough - making the map, compiling for devmap testing, and making improvements as the map gets built up.

There are no errors during compile.     But in /devmap testing, I found an area that will show an infinite mirror glitch when looking at a specific wall, at certain distances and only at certain areas of that wall!   

The leak happens when looking towards the corner seam where the bottom/floor brush meets the wall brush - this is the only place the leak is occuring.   Other areas along the same wall and seam will not cause the glitch.

Ive tried figuring out where/how it was leaking, with no luck.

The map is fairly symetrical - if someone does take a look at the map,  the leak is taking place on the open wall that is missing its staircases.   If you take a look along that wall towards the bottom seam, and near where the staircases would be placed, you will quickly find the leak (I removed the staircases, in troubleshooting the leak).

Can someone please take a look and see if they could provide insight as to why I have developed this leak? 

Thanks!

 

 

Small shot of the early map build:

https://jkhub.org/albums/naRqAAM

Image of the issue:

https://jkhub.org/albums/5GW5v3O

.Map file download:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wyrqqiauqhr9aam/moist.map/file

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=70016165013031751653

 

[Ramikad]

Make sure that there aren't any duplicate brushes in that area - if there was a leak it would return a ton of errors, and duplicate brushes aren't really visible in Radiant.

[OCD2]

32 minutes ago, Ramikad said:

Make sure that there aren't any duplicate brushes in that area - if there was a leak it would return a ton of errors, and duplicate brushes aren't really visible in Radiant.

Thank you for the input, I will keep looking for the issue.   

Is there a way to easily find duplicate brushes or do you have to go through moving/hiding every brush to see if its hiding a duplicate?

[Ramikad]

Easiest way would be to look at this sort of bug / invisible brushes in-game - that's what generally duplicate brushes cause. That at least helps narrowing down the area where to look for them.

[OCD2]

13 hours ago, Ramikad said:

Easiest way would be to look at this sort of bug / invisible brushes in-game - that's what generally duplicate brushes cause. That at least helps narrowing down the area where to look for them.

I have not found the issue yet, but thank you to your suggestions.

So far I have found a duplicate light entity that were both embedded in the floor brush, and a duplicate fx_runner.  Though they were not necessarily in the same area and the glitch is still occuring.

I do appreciate your help, its helping clean up the map.

I'll keep looking for duplicate brushes. 

 

[OCD2]

No luck finding any other duplicate brushes.

The area that is producing this effect is touching the void - theres nothing behind it (or at least there should not be!).

I've tried different methods of fixing, from deleting the brushes and recreating them, removing the staircases, tried hiding brushes to see if I could find duplicates - no luck thus far.   

 

https://jkhub.org/albums/5GW5v3O

[Ramikad]

That's puzzling. To my knowledge only a few things can cause the bug you're describing:

 - An actual leak - but this is not the case, as the compiler doesn't return any sort of error on this matter;

 - A brush with a mirror shader - if the mirror doesn't have any entity and camera to go with, it will show a similar effect to that;

 - Two brushes, one overlapping the other: it seems strange though that you couldn't find anything - make sure you didn't hide the brush beneath it (accidentally hitting the H key); make sure that you didn't make it a detail and filtered it out (CTRL + D); and make sure your filter list (View -> Filter) is clean, so that everything that's there is shown.

What suggests me that it's actually another brush overlapping it is that you said you tried to recreate it with the same results - that shouldn't happen. Other than that, I don't know. One last thing you could try would be to move all your map by a little in any direction - say 128 units (a random number) - and see if that changes anything.

[OCD2]

1 hour ago, Ramikad said:

That's puzzling. To my knowledge only a few things can cause the bug you're describing:

 - An actual leak - but this is not the case, as the compiler doesn't return any sort of error on this matter;

 - A brush with a mirror shader - if the mirror doesn't have any entity and camera to go with, it will show a similar effect to that;

 - Two brushes, one overlapping the other: it seems strange though that you couldn't find anything - make sure you didn't hide the brush beneath it (accidentally hitting the H key); make sure that you didn't make it a detail and filtered it out (CTRL + D); and make sure your filter list (View -> Filter) is clean, so that everything that's there is shown.

What suggests me that it's actually another brush overlapping it is that you said you tried to recreate it with the same results - that shouldn't happen. Other than that, I don't know. One last thing you could try would be to move all your map by a little in any direction - say 128 units (a random number) - and see if that changes anything.

I did add a brush with a "shiney floor" texture, at a different spot on the map- i'll check that later just in case it's related.

I have checked for errant detail brushes, and I will check to see if I have any hidden brushes behind the area - maybe I missed one while frustrated checking over the map.

I'll also check the filter list - that is something that I did not look over yet.

And regarding the moving of the map,  I'm willing to give anything a try - is it okay to select the whole map with a box and move it at one time?   Or would that produce the same bug, just moved to different coordinates?   I'll try either way when I'm at the computer later today.

At this point, ive put in about equal time troubleshooting as I did building the map -  Thank you again for your thoughts and time.   I'm hoping one of the methods you suggested helps solve this mystery.

[NAB622]

I'd like to take a look at this too, actually - at what coordinates in the map are you seeing the void? (I'm not at my computer right now, but having coordinates will greatly speed this along)

[OCD2]

26 minutes ago, NAB622 said:

I'd like to take a look at this too, actually - at what coordinates in the map are you seeing the void? (I'm not at my computer right now, but having coordinates will greatly speed this along)

I will provide them as soon as possible.

It's easy to find in game: this bug appears along the empty wall, looking downward towards the corner seam - from about the middle point of the wall, to nearly the end.

Thank you for your assistance, coordinates coming soon!

[OCD2]

52 minutes ago, NAB622 said:

I'd like to take a look at this too, actually - at what coordinates in the map are you seeing the void? (I'm not at my computer right now, but having coordinates will greatly speed this along)

Here are the coordinates:

It starts from ~  x: 64   y: -1024  z: 0   - and runs to about  x: 1024  y: -1024  z: 0

Thank you for being willing to take a look at the problem!

[NAB622]

Just a heads-up - Chrome does not like tinyupload, and actually blocked me from visiting the domain and from downloading your map file. Might want to use a different service in the future.

 

3 hours ago, Ramikad said:

What suggests me that it's actually another brush overlapping it is that you said you tried to recreate it with the same results - that shouldn't happen. Other than that, I don't know. One last thing you could try would be to move all your map by a little in any direction - say 128 units (a random number) - and see if that changes anything.

As weird as the suggestion sounds, I'm with Ramikad on this one. I think there's a suspicious thing going on with the VIS. Try moving the map a little on all three axes and see what the result is. Worst case scenario, it just doesn't work.

The reason I'm thinking that is.....the default blocksize of any map is 1024, and most of your outer walls intersect the 1024 and -1024 points on the grid on several axes. Additionally, your VIS is creating a lot of slices, many of which branch out from the center and spread out to your outer walls. It shouldn't actually cause any problems - but admittedly, it is awfully suspicious that the wall seems to be breaking near where those slices intersect it.

 

3 hours ago, fullkevlar said:

is it okay to select the whole map with a box and move it at one time?   Or would that produce the same bug, just moved to different coordinates?   I'll try either way when I'm at the computer later today.

Yes, it is okay to move everything at once. The easiest way is just to deselect everything and invert the selection - no need to use a box. For extra caution, you can always save the map as "Delete_me.map" before doing it so there's no risk. If the problem is related to the blocksize somehow, it might actually fix the issue. If this does nothing and the issue follows the map to the new coordinates, that will help troubleshoot it.

If this doesn't fix the issue, try turning on /developer 1 and /r_showtris 1 and post a screenshot of the broken wall from a distance.

Also, just a technique suggestion - if that is the final size of your map, you might even consider ignoring VIS altogether - just leave the outer walls structural, and make everything inside detail. There really isn't much to hide from any angle, so why bother to optimize? It's unlikely, but possible, that this will help too.

[OCD2]

4 hours ago, NAB622 said:

Just a heads-up - Chrome does not like tinyupload, and actually blocked me from visiting the domain and from downloading your map file. Might want to use a different service in the future.

 

As weird as the suggestion sounds, I'm with Ramikad on this one. I think there's a suspicious thing going on with the VIS. Try moving the map a little on all three axes and see what the result is. Worst case scenario, it just doesn't work.

The reason I'm thinking that is.....the default blocksize of any map is 1024, and most of your outer walls intersect the 1024 and -1024 points on the grid on several axes. Additionally, your VIS is creating a lot of slices, many of which branch out from the center and spread out to your outer walls. It shouldn't actually cause any problems - but admittedly, it is awfully suspicious that the wall seems to be breaking near where those slices intersect it.

 

Yes, it is okay to move everything at once. The easiest way is just to deselect everything and invert the selection - no need to use a box. For extra caution, you can always save the map as "Delete_me.map" before doing it so there's no risk. If the problem is related to the blocksize somehow, it might actually fix the issue. If this does nothing and the issue follows the map to the new coordinates, that will help troubleshoot it.

If this doesn't fix the issue, try turning on /developer 1 and /r_showtris 1 and post a screenshot of the broken wall from a distance.

Also, just a technique suggestion - if that is the final size of your map, you might even consider ignoring VIS altogether - just leave the outer walls structural, and make everything inside detail. There really isn't much to hide from any angle, so why bother to optimize? It's unlikely, but possible, that this will help too.

Thank you, I will be trying those suggestions shortly.

 

Also another hosting site for the file:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wyrqqiauqhr9aam/moist.map/file

[OCD2]

I moved the map, and tried to compile.  

I received this error message:

 

--- LoadMapFile ---
Loading C:/Program Files (x86)/Steam/steamapps/common/Jedi Academy/GameData/base/maps/deletethisNo brushes selected.

************ ERROR ************
Error opening C:/Program Files (x86)/Steam/steamapps/common/Jedi Academy/GameData/base/maps/deletethisNo brushes selected.
: Invalid argument

 

[OCD2]

6 hours ago, NAB622 said:

Just a heads-up - Chrome does not like tinyupload, and actually blocked me from visiting the domain and from downloading your map file. Might want to use a different service in the future.

 

As weird as the suggestion sounds, I'm with Ramikad on this one. I think there's a suspicious thing going on with the VIS. Try moving the map a little on all three axes and see what the result is. Worst case scenario, it just doesn't work.

The reason I'm thinking that is.....the default blocksize of any map is 1024, and most of your outer walls intersect the 1024 and -1024 points on the grid on several axes. Additionally, your VIS is creating a lot of slices, many of which branch out from the center and spread out to your outer walls. It shouldn't actually cause any problems - but admittedly, it is awfully suspicious that the wall seems to be breaking near where those slices intersect it.

 

Yes, it is okay to move everything at once. The easiest way is just to deselect everything and invert the selection - no need to use a box. For extra caution, you can always save the map as "Delete_me.map" before doing it so there's no risk. If the problem is related to the blocksize somehow, it might actually fix the issue. If this does nothing and the issue follows the map to the new coordinates, that will help troubleshoot it.

If this doesn't fix the issue, try turning on /developer 1 and /r_showtris 1 and post a screenshot of the broken wall from a distance.

Also, just a technique suggestion - if that is the final size of your map, you might even consider ignoring VIS altogether - just leave the outer walls structural, and make everything inside detail. There really isn't much to hide from any angle, so why bother to optimize? It's unlikely, but possible, that this will help too.

I moved the map, and was able to compile it at different coordinates.   The issue still exists.

I went through and took some pictures of the bad wall with showtris enabled.

I cannot see any issue on the wall seam where it is causing the mirror bug - though im not yet sure how to use showtris fully to debug the situation.

The map size is not final,  I was going to raise that room up about 1/4, and have a tunnel system around the edges that funnels players towards each other and for flanking, as well include two other medium sized rooms to the map.       I was hoping to find the fix for this bug before continuing to build out the map.

I do appreciate all of the information, im learning so much.

 

Here are the images of the bugged area with showtris enabled.       The offending bottom corner, from another angle, and from overhead -  and the final picture to show the problem still exists.

 

https://jkhub.org/albums/ctUA4Fd

 

Im stumped.

 

[OCD2]

10 hours ago, Ramikad said:

That's puzzling. To my knowledge only a few things can cause the bug you're describing:

 - An actual leak - but this is not the case, as the compiler doesn't return any sort of error on this matter;

 - A brush with a mirror shader - if the mirror doesn't have any entity and camera to go with, it will show a similar effect to that;

 - Two brushes, one overlapping the other: it seems strange though that you couldn't find anything - make sure you didn't hide the brush beneath it (accidentally hitting the H key); make sure that you didn't make it a detail and filtered it out (CTRL + D); and make sure your filter list (View -> Filter) is clean, so that everything that's there is shown.

What suggests me that it's actually another brush overlapping it is that you said you tried to recreate it with the same results - that shouldn't happen. Other than that, I don't know. One last thing you could try would be to move all your map by a little in any direction - say 128 units (a random number) - and see if that changes anything.

I moved the map to new coordinates, and the problem still exists.

I also took photos of the area with showtris enabled.

 

https://jkhub.org/albums/ctUA4Fd

 

[Ramikad]

Just tested it - I misinterpreted it. This bug isn't caused by duplicate brushes - it seems to be related to some strange VIS stuff as NAB622 suggested. I tried to compile the map you posted, and it did create that bug. I reduced the blocksize to 0 (in the worldspawn), made everything detail brushes (except for the "outer shell"), compiled it and the bug was gone.

[OCD2]

9 minutes ago, Ramikad said:

Just tested it - I misinterpreted it. This bug isn't caused by duplicate brushes - it seems to be related to some strange VIS stuff as NAB622 suggested. I tried to compile the map you posted, and it did create that bug. I reduced the blocksize to 0 (in the worldspawn), made everything detail brushes (except for the "outer shell"), compiled it and the bug was gone.

Oh thank you for the information!

I have made everything inside the shell into detail brushes - How do I reduce blocksize?  

[Ramikad]

Simply select any worldspawn brush and type in blocksize 0 (setting the blocksize value to 0).

[OCD2]

Just now, Ramikad said:

Simply select any worldspawn brush and type in blocksize 0 (setting the blocksize value to 0).

Could I select a side wall, for example?   Press N, and then enter the blocksize 0 command?   

 

[OCD2]

2 minutes ago, Ramikad said:

Simply select any worldspawn brush and type in blocksize 0 (setting the blocksize value to 0).

I did it, compiled it and the map is functional again!

Thank you immensely for the help!

May I ask what blocksize does, and how you knew to change it to 0 to solve the problem?

[NAB622]

blocksize 0 isn't a great idea, but I'm glad you were able to find the problem with it! As long as the map stays small, you should be fine using it. If it gets larger, try a different blocksize, like 2048 and see if the issue persists. Just remember that for the future, don't default to blocksize 0, as it will have effects on larger maps.

As for what blocksize is and how it works, here's an excerpt detailing how VIS works, taken from here:

http://nab622.com/tutorials/MappingErrors.html#show all:_:compile_time_errors-max_map_visibility-full_explanation

Quote

To boil it down, VIS works like this:

- During compile, a single, large brush is generated for every area of your map that is fully enclosed in 'Structural' brushes, encapsulating each one.

- The _blocksize value in the worldspawn is used to break each of these brushes up into equal sized blocks on every axis (Default 1024 units).

- Next, these blocks are sliced along the planes of each HINT brush in the map.

- Finally, every 'Structural' brush in the map is CSG subtracted into what remains (Detail brushes are ignored).

The resulting pieces are your map's 'Portals', and they are then used to determine what areas of the map are visible from each other.

Somehow, between the blocksize slices and the portal slices, the compiler bugged up and was marking the offending geometry as being not visible. Also, thanks to the images you posted with showtris, there's some really odd slicing going on with that wall, which is weird because it shouldn't be slicing at all.....that's one thing I wish q3map2 had never done was slice brushes every place they intersect. But that does explain why part of it was visible, and part of it was not.

[OCD2]

1 hour ago, NAB622 said:

blocksize 0 isn't a great idea, but I'm glad you were able to find the problem with it! As long as the map stays small, you should be fine using it. If it gets larger, try a different blocksize, like 2048 and see if the issue persists. Just remember that for the future, don't default to blocksize 0, as it will have effects on larger maps.

As for what blocksize is and how it works, here's an excerpt detailing how VIS works, taken from here:

http://nab622.com/tutorials/MappingErrors.html#show all:_:compile_time_errors-max_map_visibility-full_explanation

Somehow, between the blocksize slices and the portal slices, the compiler bugged up and was marking the offending geometry as being not visible. Also, thanks to the images you posted with showtris, there's some really odd slicing going on with that wall, which is weird because it shouldn't be slicing at all.....that's one thing I wish q3map2 had never done was slice brushes every place they intersect. But that does explain why part of it was visible, and part of it was not.

Thank you for the explanations!

I started plugging away at the map again, blocking out more areas, and now ive found that the wall opposite of the one which issue was solved now seems to not accept light!    

Not sure if its a separate issue, but in these photos, there is a 7000 unit light entity right next to the wall and its quite dark. 

[NAB622]

Don't forget to post the photos!

[OCD2]

53 minutes ago, NAB622 said:

Don't forget to post the photos!

lol, yes that would help.

https://jkhub.org/albums/F2YVTUd

 

Edit :   I was able to resolve it by moving a few brushes.