Archangel35757

Raven didn't use Crosswalk-- it didn't exist at the time. They exported from Softimage|XSI or perhaps 3ds Max 5 and using the Raven Max5 dotXSI exporter-- which I have and will also test out. Look at the bone hierarchy of JO Kyle and JA jedi_hm -- and you'll notice that the hierarchy is different... maybe this is a factor? @@DT85 -- I intend to analyze everything I can . I have a cleaned JO/JA Null skeleton I can send you if you like...

@@Boothand -- merge in the lights.xsi file that was included with the XSI Viewer to add lights to your scene and make it easier to see.

I believe you'll find a ShaderED manual in the SoF/SoF2 SDK assets... called SoF2_Shaders.doc which talks about using ShaderED2.

wait... I'm confused :wacko: You're saying you have a cleaned-up set of JKA nulls from importing the JKA root.xsi file? ...you did this using Max8 and the borked dotXSI importer? Or did you do this in Max 5 and the Raven importer (it's the only importer I would trust)? ...And you've then imported and constrained the JO GLA nulls to these JKA nulls? So you're not using a CS Biped anymore? Further, you imported these JO GLA nulls from a .GLA file (that has lost accuracy due to being converted to half-precision)? Have I understood you correctly? Out of curiousity, why don't you try exporting using Crosswalk and bring this into Mod Tool via Crosswalk? ...and see if the jittering is still present. Here's another interesting Google find: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?272018-Importing-animation-issue So this is a similar case of going from half-precision back to single-precision and trying to apply this animation back onto a CS Biped. So the first file at the top of the anim_list is what is used as the hierarchy template: FACE_TALK0 (if I recall correctly?)... but then they didn't have your fixed-up Assimilate code that now respects the order in which animations are added... and so I'm just saying that the new root.xsi file should be the first one added so that the bone hierarchy is based on it. So, everything is on the table for investigating this jittery bone issue.

Yes, that is one of the possibilities... but it could also be other things. For another example of bone jitter see here: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=1101737 ...and this fellow didn't mention exporting to dotXSI-- or exporting at all for that matter. But here's a case of "Dem jittering bones" when exporting to dotXSI back in 2007: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=529802 ...so this fellow was using a CS Biped and the Crosswalk plugin... so if it's with the exporter then it's been in there all along-- and carried over to Crosswalk. :blink: Also, there are some instances where using Position/Orientation Constraints and enforcing "Keep Original Offset" can cause problems... and I understand DT is using a Null skeleton constrained to a CS Biped. I've already stated that some of the released dotXSI files don't all have the same identical bone hierarchy. Carcass.exe uses the first file in the animation list as the hierarchy template... so I'm not sure how that would affect things during the GLA process-- if it isn't using your root pose as the hierarchy template. But DT mentioned he sees this jitter from the dotXSI imported into Mod Tool. Some precision/accuracy is lost by the very nature of converting from single-precision to half-precision... and there's nothing that can be done about that unless the programmers re-write the Ghoul2 format specification to be single-precision. So... I have to systematically analyze all possibilities and follow the process of elimination-- it could be a combination of things and not just attributed to a single item.

@@DT85 -- Would you be willing to send me your null/biped skeleton? Unanimated in the root pose? And I would imagine that the half-precision GLA conversion would amplify the jittering you're seeing. DT also states, as one would suspect, that the jittering is worse/most notable at the end of bone chains (hands/ fingers, perhaps facial bones, etc.). @@DT85... so when you compile this animation-- are you using the original _humanoid.gla to compile against? Or are you creating your own skeleton (new .GLA)? And if you're making a new skeleton (.GLA file) then would you post the content of your model.car file so I can see which file Carcass is using to build the skeleton hierarchy. Thanks!

Yes, but it's the first file at top of list that is used to build the hierarchy. You could try the original dotXSI Exporter The dotXSI importer is broken as well-- since the resulting nodes retain their XSI coordinate system-- thus the scene you started with in 3dsMax and exported and then re-import has a 90° x-axis rotation on every node. I also don't want to rule out a few other things. So I plan to investigate a few things...

While I know that a savvy user could create this file in any 3D app, I thought ShaderED was the de facto tool, no?

There may be a couple things going on... but one thing I recently discovered is that the released dotXSI animations don't all have the same bone hierarchy-- especially out in the arms... and this could possibly be a factor since a bone inherits the transform of it's parent. Therefore, using @@DT85 's new Assimilate version... it's impprtant to make sure ROOT.xsi is always the first animation... Because carcass uses the first file to make the bone hierarchy. Also, I need to investigate nulls bound to a CS Biped versus a Max Bone rig. I intend to make some data plots of the animation data and overlay.

And how/what are you using to verify your dotXSI output??? Regardless, I'm sure there's no issue with Softimage/Mod Tool output... since they made the dotXSI format

Did you not see my earlier post about the successful .Skin file creation? It imports into ModTool as well... but if you are working natively in Mod Tool, Then all you have to do is add a custom property onto your mesh nodes-- called "Game" then add a parameter to that called "Shader" and the value is the relative texture path. Do characters use .Shader files?

@@minilogoguy18 -- do bones in Softimage have a default material assigned to them when they're created? Bones in 3dsMax do not... but the dotXSI exporter gives them a global default material (which I could modify/eliminate if necessary).

Sorry, couldn't help myself with the title... it's a well known song in the South (American by birth... Southern by the grace of God ) Song link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dem_Bones Ok... so @@DT85 suspects that the dotXSI exporter is contributing to "dem jittery bones" -- so I want this thread to document this investigation. This is what I plan to look into starting this weekend.

Update: Ok... so I have the XSI_CustomPSet template now exporting out correctly ( I was misinterpreting the template... but finally I saw the light! :blink: ). Here's the new template output for the hips mesh: XSI_CustomPSet hips.Game { "NODE", 1, "Shader","Text","models/players/jedi_malak/body.tga", }Much thanks to @@DT85 for finding the missing template that was causing the .skin file to fail being written! In my test file I deleted the caps... but here is the resulting model_default.skin file: It's a straightforward matter now to add a check to see if the mesh is hidden at the time of export... and if so, replace the relative texture path with the *off flag. A note on how to properly use this new feature: In order for Carcass.exe to properly make a .skin file, you must now name your Material Editor slots with the relative path to your texture (e.g., models/players/jedi_malak/body.tga ), instead of the typical "xx - Default" name that 3ds Max gives it. Thanks to everyone for their patience. There are a couple of other things I want to investigate this weekend, but I should have updated plugins submitted to the utilities section soon.

So you're volunteering then?

Update: So I have the XSI_CustomPSet template being written out... but I'm having a problem getting the data populated into it... should have been straightforward-- not sure what I'm doing wrong. * * * SI_Visibility { 1, } SI_GlobalMaterial { "models/players/jedi_malak/body.tga", "NODE", } XSI_CustomPSet hips.Game { "NODE", 0, } * * *

The JO and JA root files use the following for SI_GlobalMaterial: SI_GlobalMaterial { "ISIS2_Maquette_kyle_MeshPose", "INHERITED", } ...whereas the current dotXSI code has: SI_GlobalMaterial { "Scene_Root", "NODE", } I think I'll change it from "Scene_Root" to "Scene_Default" -- any other suggestions?

I'm not liking the idea of using the material editor slot name for the relative texture path... but it's the simplest... I may look into something else... In the JO root.xsi files the SI_Material template is named the mesh object name, e.g.: SI_Material Davinci_Male01_TrueBones.hips //(LOD 0) SI_Material Davinci_Male01_TrueBones.hips_1 //(LOD 1), etc. But in my exporter the SI_Material matches the 3ds Max Material Editor slot name (and I kind of like this...) In the JO root.xsi file the SI_Texture2D template uses the mesh object name as well... (I'm fine with doing the same here...) ...but because you can assign different materials from different folders-- like the caps texture coming from the stormtrooper folder... I don't see a better way than by using the Material Editor slot to name the relative path.

@@Psyk0Sith, @@DT85, @@eezstreet -- ok, so I'm looking at the dotXSI exporter code, .skin files for JO_Kyle, JA_Luke, and JA_jedi_hm... and it shouldn't be a problem to add the necessary custom game data in the XSI_CustomPSet template that is used by Carcass.exe to generate the .skin file. However, in my implementation I have a couple of choices, as I see it, on how to code it and so I'd like to take your opinions under consideration. For JO_Kyle and JA_Luke, It seems the model_default.skin file only lists the mesh objects for the default skin (yes, that makes sense)... but in the JA_jedi_hm skin file (because there are so many different outfits/meshes) they appear to list ALL mesh objects and simply use the *off flag to turn off these surfaces in the default .skin file. It seems to me that Carcass can only create one skin file (model_default)... but to make manual editing easier, I think it would be best to modify the dotXSI exporter code so that it follows the jedi_hm example-- listing all surfaces and using the *off as necessary. The outline for how I would code this is as follows: For each mesh object, check if it has "bolt" in it's name, or has no material assigned (i.e., = undefined) and if so skip/do nothing, else Create the XSI_CustomPSet template for the mesh object (using mesh name and applied texture name**[see below] ) If the mesh object is hidden (i.e., not visible in the scene) at time of exporting, then append the *off flag to the text string.In this way, all mesh objects with materials will be written to the .skin file (like the jedi_hm) and should allow for easier manual editing later. **Regarding the material name... it seems the simplest solution for this would be to name the 3ds Max Material Editor slot with the relative path. For example: models/players/kyle/kyle_torso.tga and use that for the XSI_CustomPSet parameter value... what say you all?

Maybe not for a single mesh character... but if you want to have several skins with miscellaneous meshes ( think jedi_hm) that will require various .skin files then that seems a bit tedious-- especially if you already have the meshes on different layers in 3dsMax already.

@@DT85, so when you have a model like my Darth Maul and Cyber Maul that will definitely need .skin *off'ing...is there no automatic tool to do this? Wouldn't the model_default.skin file have everything turned on, and thus require manual editing??? Seems like it might be simpler to write a Maxscript file that generates all of your .skin files by using mesh & layer info, no?

ok... digging around, I found this on the Void from Hapslash regarding .surf files: But then I found @@Inyri 's webpage with this mod: http://www.inyri.info/mods/jaskins/rodian/ ... which shows you how to use .SURF files in JKA-- so now I'm confused! :unsure:

Well, Assimilate/Carcass creates the .Skin file... do they create .Surf files? I'm sure there is a tool to do so...

@@DT85 -- so you compared Kyle's root.xsi with a new root.xsi? I'll look into it. Thanks. This is just a custom info template it can be added without any other modifications. What about .surf files??? How are these generated? Is there a Raven tool for .surf files?

You can find almost all of these tools in the SoF2 SDKs and ST:EF2 SDK.