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the_raven

Luke's Jedi Academy (old canon)

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Note: Before anything, it's not a complaint about the removal of old canon, it's just a fan discussion.

 

One thing that's always bothered me with Luke's academy on Yavin 4 was the fact that Yavin 4 used to be a Sith world. Yes, it's got a strong Force 'field' (aura, if you will), but it's a dark sided field, therefore isn't it counter intuitive to be training Jedi there? - He's exposing untrained (undertrained) students to the dark side! Luke himself said it in JKA that the Massassi temple had a 'residual dark side aura'!

Now, some of you might remind me that the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was also built atop a Sith shrine, which in turn was built atop a Coruscant mountain (not that the latter is all that important in this case, but it is a place of natural Force power), but the old Jedi were way more informed and powerful than Luke is and ever will be, so obviously they had those 'cleansing' rituals that would counter the dark side influence of a place - most religions have those in some form after all. Does Luke know those rituals? It's not mentioned anywhere. Luke just moved in and established an academy on Yavin 4. What was his reasoning exactly? Because it was the former base of the good guys? (if I'm not mistaking, it was the same temple as the rebel base featured in Ep4) The Rebels were just random people, people that have a wide range of emotions, including negative ones - they hated the Empire, wanted to destroy it, went to war against it. Sure, their reasons were pure (mostly), but those were still strong and negative emotions and actions. Not to mention that not all rebels were actually nice people, there were cutthroats among them too! (an example of this were the rebels featured in Rogue One at that).

So, what do you guys think? Why did Luke establish a Jedi academy on a Sith world? Why not return to Coruscant? Or why not establish one on Dantooine (since in the old canon, there had already been a Jedi Enclave there) since it is a canon world.

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Currently, there is no direct and confirmed info, that Luke established his academy on Yavin IV (in New Canon). But when playing JO I also thought, it was strange to create an Academy there, on Yavin IV, 

The fall of Desann in JO also indicates it wasn't a very good idea. In comics many more dark stories took place there after Battle of Endor.

 

Not Coruscant – well, maybe because the Temple there wasn't just a ruin, but a structure uglified by the Emperor and the Dark Side, which would always remind, how the last Jedi failed and were destroyed by the Empire (as seen in The Force Unleashed). Yavin IV on the other hand had a dark aura from a long past, not directly connected to Vader and Luke's dark past. In new Canon the Jedi Temple is a former Emperor's palace, so it no longer can serve as a traditional Jedi temple, but rather as an archive and a place of search for various Imperial secrets. (However the other reason could be, that there wasn't too much information on Coruscant in 1990s, when the first ideas about the new Jedi Academy flourished).

 

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Not Dantooine – seemed to be a much better place for an academy. I can't name any reasons from within Star Wars universe, why there is no academy there... But the reasons are probably the same as for Coruscant, almost nothing known about this location in 1990s. Also, the planets those years looked quite simple and alike, so Dantooine didn't have any specific traits to be interesting for the appearance of the planet with Jedi Academy. A distinctive look for various worlds became possible with video games and TV series, which happened much later. Unfortunately the new canon only makes a Rebel base true.

 

There were other planets, which could serve as HQ for the new Jedi. Currently, we have Ilum, Ossus, Tython, as well Dagobah (quite dark) and Endor (not that bad, no direct Force affiliation).

 

Star%2BWars%2BDantooine.jpg

 

In general, the concept wasn't thought through enough, I think (just like with Clone Wars, which until Episode II, was shown as a conflict between the Cloners and other parties, which some links to the Republic). Ralph McQuarrie made a concept with the Temple and Rebels seeing something terrible in there. But perhaps in general, it was believed, that the ruins are just "some old temples", used now by the Rebels. No indication on Sith at the time. Later on the nature of the Massassi became more detailed, revealing all the stuff with the Dark Side, which in turn was justified as a way for the new Jedi always feel the temptation of the evil, but learn to resist it.

 

tumblr_n8q9e4Ko4F1qa4gi0o6_1280.jpg

 

The new Canon stories reveal, that some people even made home on Yavin IV.

tumblr_o0fsx9AFbK1qci7ipo9_540.jpg

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Currently, there is no direct and confirmed info, that Luke established his academy on Yavin IV (in New Canon). But when playing JO I also thought, it was strange to create an Academy there, on Yavin IV, 

The fall of Desann in JO also indicates it wasn't a very good idea. In comics many more dark stories took place there after Battle of Endor.

 

Not Coruscant – well, maybe because the Temple there wasn't just a ruin, but a structure uglified by the Emperor and the Dark Side, which would always remind, how the last Jedi failed and were destroyed by the Empire (as seen in The Force Unleashed). Yavin IV on the other hand had a dark aura from a long past, not directly connected to Vader and Luke's dark past. In new Canon the Jedi Temple is a former Emperor's palace, so it no longer can serve as a traditional Jedi temple, but rather as an archive and a place of search for various Imperial secrets. (However the other reason could be, that there wasn't too much information on Coruscant in 1990s, when the first ideas about the new Jedi Academy flourished).

 

Not Dantooine – seemed to be a much better place for an academy. I can't name any reasons from within Star Wars universe, why there is no academy there... But the reasons are probably the same as for Coruscant, almost nothing known about this location in 1990s. Also, the planets those years looked quite simple and alike, so Dantooine didn't have any specific traits to be interesting for the appearance of the planet with Jedi Academy. A distinctive look for various worlds became possible with video games and TV series, which happened much later. Unfortunately the new canon only makes a Rebel base true.

 

There were other planets, which could serve as HQ for the new Jedi. Currently, we have Ilum, Ossus, Tython, as well Dagobah (quite dark) and Endor (not that bad, no direct Force affiliation).

 

In general, the concept wasn't thought through enough, I think (just like with Clone Wars, which until Episode II, was shown as a conflict between the Cloners and other parties, which some links to the Republic). Ralph McQuarrie made a concept with the Temple and Rebels seeing something terrible in there. But perhaps in general, it was believed, that the ruins are just "some old temples", used now by the Rebels. No indication on Sith at the time. Later on the nature of the Massassi became more detailed, revealing all the stuff with the Dark Side, which in turn was justified as a way for the new Jedi always feel the temptation of the evil, but learn to resist it.

 

The new Canon stories reveal, that some people even made home on Yavin IV.

Hmm, good point. But still, the temptation would be a bit extreme, don't you think?

Also, when you're talking about Ilum, Ossus, Tython, Dagobah, and Endor you're talking about old canon, right? Because:

  • In the old canon there isn't any info past the Imperial Era about Ilum. In the new canon, it was severely damaged by the Empire's mining operations and they 'corrupted' it with their presence;
  • Ossus had a new academy established by Luke's Order in the old canon after the Yuuzhan Vong War because the one on Yavin 4 was destroyed, and because they didn't want Coruscant (for some negative associations). In the new canon, the Ossus academy (or library) had been abandoned long before the Imperial Era, and never seen again;
  • Tython had an academy re-established after Darth Zannah (Darth Bane's apprentice) rediscovered it, and the Jedi kicked the Sith out, but after the Imperial Era, there's no info. In the new canon the planet is really obscure - it was added into canon through a tabletop rpg, and only thing in-universe about it is that it's believed as one of the places of origin of the Jedi Order;
  • Dagobah was never used as a place for an academy, I don't know why. Maybe it's too dangerous? You know, all the beasts...The cave however, was used several times by Luke and other Jedi, and some of the students were sent there during the Kilik crisis. The cave's dark side aura came from the death of a Dark Jedi some long time in the past. At least, that's the old canon story. In the new canon, there's nothing at all (that is, except for Yoda's episodes).
  • Endor indeed doesn't have a Force connection. In the old canon there was no academy, but some Jedi students from the new Ossus academy did hide there from Darth Caedus, before Luke evacuated them. In the new canon, there's likewise nothing other than what is shown in the movie.

So I guess Yavin 4 was either the first planet to be chosen by authors, or the whole 'temples' idea seemed appealing and made sense for the Jedi.

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So I guess Yavin 4 was either the first planet to be chosen by authors, or the whole 'temples' idea seemed appealing and made sense for the Jedi.

This one. :) It's almost the same for Coruscant in Episode VII. We see Hosnian Prime instead, which serves as a similar planet, but has a minor role, so that it could be destroyed by the authors without remorse (from fans).

 

It was eliminated to have an impact, just like it happened with Taris in KOTOR (though in the game it had a connection with the Player, as you spend much time on the planet, meeting new people, making friends, etc).

 

In general, yes, I were referring the Old Canon.

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Note: Before anything, it's not a complaint about the removal of old canon, it's just a fan discussion.

 

One thing that's always bothered me with Luke's academy on Yavin 4 was the fact that Yavin 4 used to be a Sith world. Yes, it's got a strong Force 'field' (aura, if you will), but it's a dark sided field, therefore isn't it counter intuitive to be training Jedi there? - He's exposing untrained (undertrained) students to the dark side! Luke himself said it in JKA that the Massassi temple had a 'residual dark side aura'!

Now, some of you might remind me that the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was also built atop a Sith shrine, which in turn was built atop a Coruscant mountain (not that the latter is all that important in this case, but it is a place of natural Force power), but the old Jedi were way more informed and powerful than Luke is and ever will be, so obviously they had those 'cleansing' rituals that would counter the dark side influence of a place - most religions have those in some form after all. Does Luke know those rituals? It's not mentioned anywhere. Luke just moved in and established an academy on Yavin 4. What was his reasoning exactly? Because it was the former base of the good guys? (if I'm not mistaking, it was the same temple as the rebel base featured in Ep4) The Rebels were just random people, people that have a wide range of emotions, including negative ones - they hated the Empire, wanted to destroy it, went to war against it. Sure, their reasons were pure (mostly), but those were still strong and negative emotions and actions. Not to mention that not all rebels were actually nice people, there were cutthroats among them too! (an example of this were the rebels featured in Rogue One at that).

So, what do you guys think? Why did Luke establish a Jedi academy on a Sith world? Why not return to Coruscant? Or why not establish one on Dantooine (since in the old canon, there had already been a Jedi Enclave there) since it is a canon world.

Probably because it is peaceful place.....at least it looks that way......nature, trees...waterfalls....

And the "dark side aura"....probably because of young students...to make them feel or taste the dark side...to tempt them...to see who is "weak minded"....I'm just guessing.

 

We don't know how powerful Luke Skywalker is.....

We can ASSUME that he is less powerful than Yoda or Windu...

You can wait episode VIII to see what he learned from Ancient Jedi temple....

 

In episode VIII he is like 50-60 years old....that is a lot of experience since ROTJ.

 

He can be even more powerful than Yoda...who knows (G. Lucas) :D

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Probably because it is peaceful place.....at least it looks that way......nature, trees...waterfalls....

And the "dark side aura"....probably because of young students...to make them feel or taste the dark side...to tempt them...to see who is "weak minded"....I'm just guessing.

But ain't that like, against the Jedi Code? There are Padawan trials for this, you know!

We don't know how powerful Luke Skywalker is.....

We can ASSUME that he is less powerful than Yoda or Windu...

You can wait episode VIII to see what he learned from Ancient Jedi temple....

 

In episode VIII he is like 50-60 years old....that is a lot of experience since ROTJ.

 

He can be even more powerful than Yoda...who knows (G. Lucas) :D

Well, considering that the Jedi\ Sith by the time of KOTOR were "as children playing with toys" compared to the ancient ones (namely the Jedi Exiles that established the Sith 'religion'), it makes sense that Luke ain't as powerful as Yoda or Windu, and I'm not talking about Force mastery, I'm talking about actual knowledge. But I suppose the "Ancient Jedi temple" of which you speak could have taught him things, though it's strange the Empire didn't sack it like it did the rest.

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Luke (just like Anakin before him) has always had the greatest potential - potential that dwarfs what Windu or even Yoda ever achieved. The real question is whether he ever reached that potential or - like his father before him - did he fall short?

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But ain't that like, against the Jedi Code? There are Padawan trials for this, you know!

Well, considering that the Jedi\ Sith by the time of KOTOR were "as children playing with toys" compared to the ancient ones (namely the Jedi Exiles that established the Sith 'religion'), it makes sense that Luke ain't as powerful as Yoda or Windu, and I'm not talking about Force mastery, I'm talking about actual knowledge. But I suppose the "Ancient Jedi temple" of which you speak could have taught him things, though it's strange the Empire didn't sack it like it did the rest.

 

Probably it is. But Luke was "tempted" by the dark side aura....(dark cave on Dagobah).....since Yoda was his master very short and so was Ben....I'm guessing he just thought

 that "dark side temptation" COULD be good for students.

Good for students that they should know what dark side feels like.

 

I'm just guessing....

Remember Jaden Korr and Rosh? They were all adults so to speak....Luke trained full grown people and Anakin at the age of 10 was "TOO OLD" to be trained.

WHAT JEDI CODE, I'm asking you? ;)

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I'm not mixing "expanded universe" or "star wars legends" or whatever they called it right now....with original movies only things which are same.

Luke passed on what he knows.

He doesn't know that "feeling the dark side" is not good for young jedis.

It was good for him so he passed that knowledge.

He knew that he has to face "dark jedi" (Vader) to complete his training.

Kylo Ren was probably faced Snoke and he was turned.

He thought that there was GOOD in every "dark jedi".....Han payed it with his life.

 

He even had a child (Rey is probably his daughter, saber called her, tears in Lukes eyes when he saw Rey and blue saber)...some people suggesting that Rey is actual Kenobi.

I don't believe in that. It doesn't make any sense. Ben was trained by the "Jedi Code", right?

 

Leia have a child (we can assume that Leia was not a Jedi only Force "sencer" :D ). Child named Ben aka Kylo Ren (stupid name Ben)....Han hated the "old fossil" and Leia never met him. They screwed it, right?

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Probably it is. But Luke was "tempted" by the dark side aura....(dark cave on Dagobah).....since Yoda was his master very short and so was Ben....I'm guessing he just thought

 that "dark side temptation" COULD be good for students.

Good for students that they should know what dark side feels like.

 

I'm just guessing....

Remember Jaden Korr and Rosh? They were all adults so to speak....Luke trained full grown people and Anakin at the age of 10 was "TOO OLD" to be trained.

WHAT JEDI CODE, I'm asking you? ;)

Well, didn't Luke disobey Yoda's 'advice' on the cave? Didn't Yoda tell him that it was too early, that he wasn't ready, and that he didn't need his weapons?

Maybe Luke did indeed assume that being open to Dark Side temptation could be beneficial (after all, it can be, from a certain point of view :rolleyes:). But again, if you do everything properly (I.E. by the Jedi Code), students should be exposed to the Dark Side only when they are ready, and facing the Jedi trials.

Jaden and Rosh were both trained in Luke's Yavin IV academy (not the space station praxeum-academy, for some reason :huh:), and what happened to them? Rosh was deceitful, overzealous, ambitious, and also cowardly, but Kyle didn't care, so Rosh fell to the Dark Side; Jaden was later also dealing with the Dark Side, died, and got cloned (if I remember the novels correctly).

Anakin was taken into training because he was special, they believe him to be The Chosen One, so obviously they made an exception - and look where such exceptions got the Order!

 

Luke passed on what he knows.

He doesn't know that "feeling the dark side" is not good for young jedis.

It was good for him so he passed that knowledge.

He knew that he has to face "dark jedi" (Vader) to complete his training.

Kylo Ren was probably faced Snoke and he was turned.

He thought that there was GOOD in every "dark jedi".....Han payed it with his life.

 

He even had a child (Rey is probably his daughter, saber called her, tears in Lukes eyes when he saw Rey and blue saber)...some people suggesting that Rey is actual Kenobi.

I don't believe in that. It doesn't make any sense. Ben was trained by the "Jedi Code", right?

 

Leia have a child (we can assume that Leia was not a Jedi only Force "sencer" :D ). Child named Ben aka Kylo Ren (stupid name Ben)....Han hated the "old fossil" and Leia never met him. They screwed it, right?

Didn't anyone tell Luke that one man's trash is another man's treasure? What was ultimately good for him isn't bound to ultimately be good for everyone else. Didn't those damned ghosts tell him about it? Again, the temptation worked for him because he was special. I actually believe that it was him who's The Chosen One, and not Anakin.

 

Who said Snoke is a dark Jedi? He may not be Sith, but he's still not a Jedi, not necessarily at least. He may have been one of those Emperor's Hands, or maybe something completely different (like a Nightbrother or whatever). We don't know anything about him as yet, so it's really pointless to make assumptions. On the other hand, who sends a student, no matter how talented, to deal with a powerful Force-user? Seems to me that Luke's a bad teacher.

 

It's stated nowhere in the new canon (yet) that Luke had a child. The saber calling to Rey may have simply been the Force, or maybe she did it herself because she was looking for Luke (not like she couldn't do a ton of other things out of the blue <_<). I'm not convinced. And I literally just saw TFA on tv, and there were no tears in Luke's eyes. Her being a Kenobi is far-fetched, I agree with you on that. Though I remember seeing some fan-theory video on youtube where they spoke of the fact that Jedi weren't allowed to have families, but that it didn't forbid them to have sex in general, so Anakin, Luke, Obi-Wan, or any other Jedi - it could still happen. :D

Ben was trained with the Jedi Code? We don't know that, do we now? As far as your posts here go, he was trained in Luke's personal experience, not the Jedi Code. :shifty:

 

Leia was not a Jedi, but a Force-sensitive, that much is known in canon. She's got a child (Ben) and a husband (Han). Nothing forbade her to do it. In fact, it's probably because of this that she didn't become a Jedi.

Ben isn't a bad name, Kylo is sillier, if you ask me. And what is Ren anyway? Did all Knights of Ren have the Ren 'family'-name? It's unknown yet.

They probably named Ben after Ben Kenobi at Luke's request, his reasoning was probably something like: "Ben taught me to be a Jedi, without him we wouldn't have gotten to the Death Star to save Leia, and would ultimately not have stopped the Empire! Besides, Ben's not even his real name, so why not have a Force-user named Ben?"

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Well, didn't Luke disobey Yoda's 'advice' on the cave? Didn't Yoda tell him that it was too early, that he wasn't ready, and that he didn't need his weapons?

Maybe he did just assume that being open to Dark Side temptation could be beneficial (after all, it can be, from a certain point of view :rolleyes:). But again, students were exposed to the Dark Side only when they were ready and facing the Jedi trials.

Jaden and Rosh were indeed both trained in Luke's Yavin IV academy (not the space station praxeum-academy, for some reason :huh:), and what happened to them? Rosh was deceitful, overzealous, ambitious, and also cowardly, so he fell to the Dark Side; Jaden was later also dealing with the Dark Side, died, and got cloned (if I remember the novels correctly). Anakin was taken into training because he was special, they believe him to be The Chosen One, so obviously they made an exception, and look where such exceptions got the Order!

 

Didn't anyone tell Luke that one's trash is another man's treasure? What was ultimately good for him isn't bound to ultimately be good for everyone else. Didn't those damned ghosts tell him about it? Again, the temptation worked for him because he was special. I actually believe that it was him who's The Chosen One, and not Anakin.

 

Who said Snoke is a dark Jedi? He may not be Sith, but he's still not a Jedi, not necessarily at least. He may have been one of those Emperor's Hands, or maybe something completely different (like a Nightbrother or whatever). We don't know anything about him as yet, so it's really pointless to make assumptions. On the other hand, who sends a student, no matter how talented, to deal with a powerful Force-user? Seems to me that Luke's indeed a bad teacher.

 

It's stated nowhere in the new canon that Luke had a child. The saber calling to Rey may have simply been the Force, or maybe she did it herself because she was looking for Luke (not like she couldn't do a ton of other things out of the blue <_<). I'm not convinced. And I literally just saw TFA on tv, and there were no tears in Luke's eyes. Her being a Kenobi is far-fetched, I agree with you on that. Though I remember seeing some fan-theory video on youtube where they spoke of the fact that Jedi weren't allowed to have families, but that it didn't forbid them to have sex in general, so Anakin, Luke, Obi-Wan, or any other Jedi, it could still happen. :D

Ben was trained with the Jedi Code? We don't know that, do we now? As far as your posts here go, he was trained in Luke's personal experience, not the Jedi Code. :shifty:

 

Leia was not a Jedi, but a Force-sensitive, that much is known in canon. She's got a child (Ben) and a husband (Han). Nothing forbade her from doing it.

Ben isn't a bad name, Kylo is sillier, if you ask me. And what is Ren anyway? Did all Knights of Ren have the Ren 'family'-name? It's unknown yet.

They probably named Ben after Ben Kenobi at Luke's request, his reasoning was probably something like: "Ben taught me to be a Jedi, without him we wouldn't have gotten to the Death Star to save Leia, and would ultimately not have stopped the Empire! Besides, Ben's not even his real name, so why not have a Force-user named Ben?"

 

We also see that Rey was "scared" in trailer, on her knees with some sort of a "crack" in the mountain? Another "Dark Cave"? :D

 

Jaden and Rosh are trained by Kyle Katarn, not Skywalker.

 

I also believe (long age) that Luke is The Chosen One, not Anakin. If we can refer to The Clone Wars (Altar of Mortis episode), Anakin IS THE Chosen One.

Shmi Skywalker: "There was no father. I carried him, I gave birth, I raised him. I can't explain what happened". Anakin IS THE Chosen One.

Maz said: "That lightsaber was Luke's. And his father's before him. And now, it calls to you".

It is obvious isn't it?

 

You said Luke was special? What is so special about him? "He look like nothing more than a Bantha herder." :D :D :D :D :D (Desann, JO)

 

He was only "A NEW HOPE", nothing more.

And there is ANOTHER SKYWALKER, Yoda says.

 

So it could be Leia, not only Luke.

 

Snoke IS dark Jedi. There are always TWO, Master and Apprentice. Kylo Ren: "By the grace of your training I will not be seduced".

He is his teacher? Master? Who can be a Master/teacher to a Sith? A Jedi? :D:PHe is a Sith.

 

Ben Kenobi is trained by Jedi Order (Jedi Code). Yoda trained Dooku, Dooku trained Qui-Gon (possibly, I'm not sure), Qui-Gon trained Obi-Van/Ben.

 

It makes more sense that Leia called her son "Bail" as Bail Organa. :D :D Right? That is a joke. ;)

 

 

You are constantly referring to the "expanded universe". Original Movies canon, please.

 

There are Jedi (light side), Sith (dark side) and force sensitive people (neither). Nobody else.

There are no Inquisitors, no Reborn, no Bendu and such crap. There is NO ARMY of Sith/Dark Jedi soldiers. There are no "sith-kung fu fighters/force users-duo"(guy with a blade and guy with fists), "Disciples of Ragnos".

 

Rule of Two (expanded universe) is just a proof that there are only two.

Sidious and Maul;

Sidious and Tyranus;

Sidious and Vader;

 

That's it.

 

Yoda: "Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice".

 

 

And I literally just saw TFA on tv, and there were no tears in Luke's eyes.

 

Look at his eyes man....he cried....

He probably felt a tragedy of father killed by his son.

And he was probably shocked to see Rey...bringing him his lightsaber.

 

eBTnEa2Nz8ASSfgegnZcD7-1200-80.jpg

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Mace Windu is a dumbass that, like most of the Jedi Council, got corrupted by petty politics.

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan might have more knowledge than Luke, but Luke is much more wise than both of them. That's the whole point of Return of the Jedi, Luke becomes a much wiser man than in The Empire Strikes Back, which allows him to ignore the poor advice of his old masters, which is to kill his father to become a Jedi master, and in doing so, he finds a better way that redeems Anakin and allows the sith to finally be destroyed. 

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Mace Windu is a dumbass that, like most of the Jedi Council, got corrupted by petty politics.

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan might have more knowledge than Luke, but Luke is much more wise than both of them. That's the whole point of Return of the Jedi, Luke becomes a much wiser man than in The Empire Strikes Back, which allows him to ignore the poor advice of his old masters, which is to kill his father to become a Jedi master, and in doing so, he finds a better way that redeems Anakin and allows the sith to finally be destroyed. 

 

Good point. Very nice.

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