The Unreal Engine and the gaming industry

[eezstreet]

I'm kinda everything on this project. And technically while I am an artist, I am also the project lead. I admit I hate the regular UE3 editor, but have you worked with UDK? I find it to be alot smoother, and way less prone to crashes.

I have used UDK in the past. The main drawbacks to it are:

- Lack of console support

- Crashes aren't verbose at all and linkup with any sort of debug IDE costs money for the various toolsets (UE4 changes this I hear)

- Multiple projects on the same PC require multiple installations of UDK (wasting tons of space)

- It's rather bloated

- The tools and whatnot are a huge pain in the ass to use

- Can't change much of the net, graphics or other code and you can't change much of the toolset without going through (might differ since you're licensed with UE3)

For your project though, you should be fine with UDK as your project doesn't sound it will be too demanding to UDK (actually sounds like a perfect fit if you ask me). I just hate UDK.

Cthulhu and furries... I think you're onto a great idea here.

NO.

[CrimsonStrife]

I have used UDK in the past. The main drawbacks to it are:

- Lack of console support

Ehh yes, it is true that you cannot just port your game to a console, this is something reserved to commercial versions of UE3 (and I mean full on companies not just commercial licenses). But then again to even develop on consoles in general (legally) you have to purchase development kits.

 

- Crashes aren't verbose at all.....

I get where your going with that, but honestly I cannot say I have ever had any crashes that I didn't already know what I did to kill the program, so that has never bothered me personally.

 

- The tools and whatnot are a huge pain in the ass to use.

I disagree...but then again, I took 2 entire courses on it, and I have been to several lectures on the engine when annually attending the East Coast Game Conference.

 

Can't change much of the net, graphics or other code and you can't change much of the toolset without going through (might differ since you're licensed with UE3)

 

Well I don't really understand what in the toolset you would be attempting to change even if you could, but you can change pretty much anything function-wise through Uscript files, admittedly the Kismet in the engine is limited.

[eezstreet]

Ehh yes, it is true that you cannot just port your game to a console, this is something reserved to commercial versions of UE3 (and I mean full on companies not just commercial licenses). But then again to even develop on consoles in general (legally) you have to purchase development kits.

From what I have heard, XNA is free and written in C#. The games can be placed on the marketplace for people to buy for a (usually) small fee. The games can be played on XBOX 360 or PC and they can have pretty decent capabilities

 

I get where your going with that, but honestly I cannot say I have ever had any crashes that I didn't already know what I did to kill the program, so that has never bothered me personally.

Perhaps not yet. But I've heard of stranger things

 

I disagree...but then again, I took 2 entire courses on it, and I have been to several lectures on the engine when annually attending the East Coast Game Conference.

The part in the 'then again' is kinda more or less the point. Nine out of ten game developers don't get real opportunities such as that though. Also, I've never attended anything in my life about game developing or computers in general that I can think of that wasn't outside of say, Word, and I'm not sure if that is what my future holds for me (college is expensive as fuck...dunno if want to go), but mark my words: putting all of your eggs into one engine is kinda bad if you're a game developer so to speak. Especially when it comes to scripting.

 

 

Well I don't really understand what in the toolset you would be attempting to change even if you could, but you can change pretty much anything function-wise through Uscript files, admittedly the Kismet in the engine is limited.

 

How about reprogramming the tools to use less memory? Or using a different map format? Last I checked, uscript has very minimal file I/O support as well, which spells doom tbh.

[CrimsonStrife]

From what I have heard, XNA is free and written in C#. The games can be placed on the marketplace for people to buy for a (usually) small fee. The games can be played on XBOX 360 or PC and they can have pretty decent capabilities

 

 

That is true, but it is not a good choice for a 3D game, as if you start looking into the process you'll find this:

"An XNA Framework game deployed to the Xbox 360 console cannot exceed 2 GB. Also, this means that any single file you deploy must be smaller than 2 GB."

http://msdn.microsof...ibrary/bb203929

 

The part in the 'then again' is kinda more or less the point. Nine out of ten game developers don't get real opportunities such as that though.......but mark my words: putting all of your eggs into one engine is kinda bad if you're a game developer so to speak. Especially when it comes to scripting.

 

I have no idea where you are pulling your statistics from on that one, HUNDREDS of developers attend such events, and programs...all over the US (and I'm sure other countries hold them too)...The East Coast Gaming Conference alone is a huge event and the Unreal lectures are some of the most popular sessions there. My college classes, yeah not everyone can find something like that, or afford to go, but things like the Unreal University, are public events, and if you volunteer at the events, they are even free, these things are not as closed off or as unique as you seem to think.

 

Don't get the idea that I am some sort of UE worshiper, I would actually enjoy making this project in Unity, however I intend to sell the final product, and the commercial licenses for Unity are far more expensive.

 

How about reprogramming the tools to use less memory? Or using a different map format? Last I checked, uscript has very minimal file I/O support as well, which spells doom tbh.

 

Not exactly sure why you would want to change the map format...but all that stuff is perfectly possible in the full UE3 as they give you the C++ source code.

Basically:

UDK = UE3 - (C++ Source Code) - (Console Exporting)

[afi]

There are quite a few commercial games to be developed with UDK, so it can't be that bad. And I totally like the map-editor

[eezstreet]

I have no idea where you are pulling your statistics from on that one, HUNDREDS of developers attend such events, and programs...all over the US (and I'm sure other countries hold them too)...The East Coast Gaming Conference alone is a huge event and the Unreal lectures are some of the most popular sessions there. My college classes, yeah not everyone can find something like that, or afford to go, but things like the Unreal University, are public events, and if you volunteer at the events, they are even free, these things are not as closed off or as unique as you seem to think.

 

Don't get the idea that I am some sort of UE worshiper, I would actually enjoy making this project in Unity, however I intend to sell the final product, and the commercial licenses for Unity are far more expensive.

I'm not interested in learning strictly all about UE. nothx. I'd rather learn something far more generalized and something that could land me a job anywhere in the software industry, not just a particular place (ohai C++...). Also, define 'volunteering' and 'the costs' of such events. Also factor in that most people don't live in California, NY, or other places that are huge when it comes to games. (Take my area for instance..the only game studio in the area is EA Tiburon and it's almost two hours away).

 

Not exactly sure why you would want to change the map format...but all that stuff is perfectly possible in the full UE3 as they give you the C++ source code.

Basically:

UDK = UE3 - (C++ Source Code) - (Console Exporting)

I know what UDK does and does not ship with. I don't think I need the memo.

And yeah. You might want to change the level format if you're doing stuff such as MMOs or randomly genrated areas. Also, it is impossible to make level effects like in Prey in UE3 without the source. There's just a whole lot of things you can't do without the engine if you really set yoour mind to it. And remember now, most people don't have the kind of money to shell out for an engine as you apparently have

[CrimsonStrife]

I'm not interested in learning strictly all about UE. nothx. I'd rather learn something far more generalized and something that could land me a job anywhere in the software industry, not just a particular place (ohai C++...). Also, define 'volunteering' and 'the costs' of such events. Also factor in that most people don't live in California, NY, or other places that are huge when it comes to games. (Take my area for instance..the only game studio in the area is EA Tiburon and it's almost two hours away).

The events I am referring to are not strictly one company or one engine..again referencing the ECGC http://www.ecgconf.com/ (you can look here for this past years scheduled classes), it takes place in Raleigh NC, which in fact is one of the largest concentrations of developers in the states.

 

"East Coast Gaming Conference will be held April 25 -26, 2012 at the Raleigh Convention Center in downtown Raleigh. The conference gets bigger and better every year, and to meet the needs of attendees, exhibitors, speakers and guests, we need an enthusiastic and dedicated volunteer force!

Why volunteer? You get a free conference pass, which allows you to attend an unlimited number of sessions, presence at both Keynote lectures, and entrance to our Expo Hall and Career Lounge. Basically, you attend for free and participate as an attendee when not on official volunteer duty. Plus, being a volunteer offers ample opportunities for networking with other volunteers, attendees, speakers and exhibitors.

How to volunteer? First, be sure that your schedule will allow you to volunteer for eight hours (not necessarily consecutive) as well as attend the conference during your non-volunteer hours. Second, fill out the form below and electronically submit it by February 29, 2012. Our volunteer coordinator, will be in contact with you via email about your volunteer status no later than March, 16, 2012. If you have questions, please feel free to email tknight@vaco.com.

What do volunteers do? Volunteers are needed to do a variety of jobs, including registering attendees, monitoring rooms, checking attendee badges, helping with special events, working with exhibitors in the exhibit hall, assisting attendees and speakers, and organizing conference bags and materials. Some of the work, such as bag stuffing, will be done prior to conference on April 23-24th.

What expenses are volunteers responsible for? You will get all the benefits that a conference pass attendee gets, including a special catered lunch each day. However, you are responsible for paying for your own transportation, parking, hotel costs, and anything else that you require. East Coast Gaming Conference will not reimburse for any expenses that you incur for your volunteer work."

 

As described there, volunteering at these events essentially makes them free...with the only costs being transportation and board.

And yeah, there are still people who cannot afford it, honestly I work my entire summers in a warehouse for 12 hours a night to pay for the things I do, so no it's still not "cheap"...but if someone wants to get into the industry bad enough, they will find a way to make it work. In today's industry you honestly just cannot get anywhere at a decent pace... if you don't get out and attend things like this, not from an educational view, but because these days, you have to KNOW someone...you have to rub elbows with the right people to even get a decent shot.

[eezstreet]

I think you have a slightly skewed view of how the game industry really works.

 

The game industry is not founded upon how well educated you are or how many events you attend. It all boils down to skill and knowing what you are talking about when it comes to playing and making games, The way you get to the top is more or less similar to how Mikouen describes it:

You want to make a game? Then do what all the people have done: they have shut up and done their work, slowly rising through the ranks until they eventually had a say-so in how their games panned out

(I'm paraphrasing here but you get the gist)

You could spend years educating yourself on a particular engine with these seminars and whatnot (and they all seem like a massive waste of cash to be honest form my perspective), but the fact of the matter is that you need all of the talent you have within you to make these games. I bet you $20 that John Carmack, James Monroe and others who have been instrumental in making JA have not attended a single seminar about the engines. I know that I haven't anyway. North Carolina is far too long of a drive in order to be able to do such a thing myself

[CrimsonStrife]

I bet you $20 that John Carmack, James Monroe and others who have been instrumental in making JA have not attended a single seminar about the engines.

Of course they didn't, at that point such things didn't exist, hell at that point most developers had no formal education in game design (again such a thing didn't really exist until up about 5 years ago), most were just random programmers or had done drafting or design work.

 

But the jobs industry today is completely different, gaming related or not. Yes your skill is important, more so than what you can claim you know. But unless you get out and meet this people (I.E. these types of events where developers and companies will review your portfolio in person), they are going to see you as a name on a piece of paper, and the first thing they will look at on that application won't be your work, it will be ; is this individual educated? maybe they didn't take formal classes, but maybe they at least have certificates, (I.E. an A+ cert and CISCO certs can get you just as far with a 2-year degree, as someone with a bachelors). Sure they will want to see a demonstration of skills, but if you cannot either show them your work in person (thereby ensuring they are actually seeing it) or you don't have the education to make it past the first few rounds of elimination where they will look at your work themselves, then how do you expect to get anywhere.

 

Then there is the dreaded "previous experience" requirement nowadays:

Let's take Bungie for example.

Minimum of three years’ experience working in games or film and at least one shipped title

http://www.bungie.ne...t_careers#32075

even for a tester

2+ year experience software testing

Or heres Id Softwares requirements for a Game Programmer

Requirements

• B.Sc. in Computer Science and/or Mathematics
  
• Proficient with c++ and object-oriented programming
  
• Development experience in the games industry a plus.
  
• Development experience on game consoles (Xbox360/PS3) a plus
  
• Experience with DX9 2.0 or above level Shaders and HLSL a plus
  

 

You could spend years educating yourself on a particular engine with these seminars and whatnot

 

I don't attend these things specifically for UE, in fact I tend to go specifically to programming lectures since, that is my week point.

 

 

-Edit-

 

This isn't the place for this, if you want to continue this discussion, we should probably take it and make a thread in the spam section.

Edited August 28, 2012 by CrimsonStrife

[eezstreet]

Of course they didn't, at that point such things didn't exist, hell at that point most developers had no formal education in game design (again such a thing didn't really exist until up about 5 years ago), most were just random programmers or had done drafting or design work.

 

But the jobs industry today is completely different, gaming related or not. Yes your skill is important, more so than what you can claim you know. But unless you get out and meet this people (I.E. these types of events where developers and companies will review your portfolio in person), they are going to see you as a name on a piece of paper, and the first thing they will look at on that application won't be your work, it will be ; is this individual educated? maybe they didn't take formal classes, but maybe they at least have certificates, (I.E. an A+ cert and CISCO certs can get you just as far with a 2-year degree, as someone with a bachelors). Sure they will want to see a demonstration of skills, but if you cannot either show them your work in person (thereby ensuring they are actually seeing it) or you don't have the education to make it past the first few rounds of elimination where they will look at your work themselves, then how do you expect to get anywhere.

You are correct in saying that your name will be just a piece of paper, but the fact of the matter is that your work also depends on what you throw into your portfolio. I find it a bit confusing that people can be so restrictive when it comes to game portfolios when there are outstanding people such as for instance Notch. Nowhere on Notch's Wikipedia does it state that he has any sort of degree in computer science or anything like that, yet he is a key selling point of the XBOX 360 console these days with games such as Minecraft. Frankly, I believe that if you're just good enough at something, that is good enough to pass in this industry. I do have a bit of a cynical take in the game industry these days. I'm also sick of the Baby Boomer ideology that the young need degrees in order to do things (hell, you need a degree just to answer phones these days..) when it's completely unnecessary.

 

Although I have an interest in pursuing a career in the games industry myself, I wouldn't touch UE with a barge pole simply because it feels more like an artist's tool than a decent programming interface. My rather misanthropic nature prevents me from making any good contacts within the game industry, and my current thoughts and feelings about my current school setup are quite decent hinderances of these things. I don't want to go into length about myself and my own experiences though, this is your thread after all. (although if you have any tips that don't involve that engine, I'd be willing to listen)

 

-Edit-

This isn't the place for this, if you want to continue this discussion, we should probably take it and make a thread in the spam section.

Actually, I find it quite suitable considering that we're talking about indie games and the game industry n whatnot. It's your thread though.

[eezstreet]

*Splits the thread and runs away giggling*

Stop splitting threads ffs, it disconnects the conversation quite severely in some cases.

[CrimsonStrife]

Damnit @@Caelum....I had just posted a response when you did that too >.<

[CrimsonStrife]

Very well,

You are correct in saying that your name will be just a piece of paper, but the fact of the matter is that your work also depends on what you throw into your portfolio. I find it a bit confusing that people can be so restrictive when it comes to game portfolios when there are outstanding people such as for instance Notch. Nowhere on Notch's Wikipedia does it state that he has any sort of degree in computer science or anything like that, yet he is a key selling point of the XBOX 360 console these days with games such as Minecraft. Frankly, I believe that if you're just good enough at something, that is good enough to pass in this industry. I do have a bit of a cynical take in the game industry these days. I'm also sick of the Baby Boomer ideology that the young need degrees in order to do things (hell, you need a degree just to answer phones these days..) when it's completely unnecessary.

No I completely agree with you on the portfolio bit...I think you misunderstand...the problem nowadays, is getting someone to a point where they are viewing your portfolio, which means you either need to have somehow managed to get them in person (a good option is either knowing someone or attending one of the events I talked about), where you can show it off, OR have enough to show off on an application (such as an education or special certifications) to get their attention so they will WANT to look at your portfolio.

 

Notch has gotten where he is today, because he struck out on his own, made a product, released it, turned a profit, and in doing so was able to show the industry what he knows...and therefore his education level is moot. That is very much what I am attempting to do here, make a game, release it, and have something that will draw attention to me and show my abilities.

 

Although I have an interest in pursuing a career in the games industry myself, I wouldn't touch UE with a barge pole simply because it feels more like an artist's tool than a decent programming interface. My rather misanthropic nature prevents me from making any good contacts within the game industry, and my current thoughts and feelings about my current school setup are quite decent hinderances of these things. I don't want to go into length about myself and my own experiences though, this is your thread after all. (although if you have any tips that don't involve that engine, I'd be willing to listen)

 

Your right, it is very much an artist's tool, and so you can see why I hold a preference to it over a programming centered system (though it must be stated that I also would like to work in engines such as Unity, Crytek, etc..but that at a one time fee of $99 + 15% royalties after $55,000 in profit, and use on an infinite number of titles) the UDK is a more affordable option for this project.

 

Well first thing I can tell you, is if you want in this kind of industry but don't have plans to continue into college ( although I highly suggest at least getting a 2-year degree in general studies from a CC) that certifications are the way to go...they vary in cost, but they are a good way to verify you know what you say you know...lets say you want to be a C++ Programmer, then these are a good example of the kind of certs you could aim for. I would advise taking them through someplace like Microsoft though if possible ( I heard that Microsoft no longer offers a straight-up C++ cert, it is all about .NET now) but look up certifications for languages you know, find study guides online, and start taking them gradually. Your young, you've got time, if you started now you could be well off by the time you'd graduate highschool.

 

Since you seem to definitely favor programming, this is probably a good path for you.

 

I myself am in the process of studying for my A+ and CCNA and CCNET certifications.

 

A good way to make contacts in the industry, is to sign up for beta tests. Now while it is better to take part in ones where you can go to the office and meet the developers in person, any test system where you are able to be in direct contact with a developer is a good one. For example, since I live about 2 hours out of Raleigh I took part in both in house Alpha tests and online Beta tests with the developers of Ubisoft Redstorm, for Ghost Recon Future Soldier, and I still have contact with Scott Shirhall, their QA Analyst and Playtest Coordinator....even had a nice conversation with him when I ran into him at this past ECGC when he was manning the Ubisoft booth.

Edited August 29, 2012 by CrimsonStrife
moved from original thread

[eezstreet]

Your right, it is very much an artist's tool, and so you can see why I hold a preference to it over a programming centered system (though it must be stated that I also would like to work in engines such as Unity, Crytek, etc..but that at a one time fee of $99 + 15% royalties after $55,000 in profit, and use on an infinite number of titles) the UDK is a more affordable option for this project.

 

Well first thing I can tell you, is if you want in this kind of industry but don't have plans to continue into college ( although I highly suggest at least getting a 2-year degree in general studies from a CC) that certifications are the way to go...they vary in cost, but they are a good way to verify you know what you say you know...lets say you want to be a C++ Programmer, then these are a good example of the kind of certs you could aim for. I would advise taking them through someplace like Microsoft though if possible ( I heard that Microsoft no longer offers a straight-up C++ cert, it is all about .NET now) but look up certifications for languages you know, find study guides online, and start taking them gradually. Your young, you've got time, if you started now you could be well off by the time you'd graduate highschool.

 

Since you seem to definitely favor programming, this is probably a good path for you.

 

I myself am in the process of studying for my A+ and CCNA and CCNET certifications.

 

A good way to make contacts in the industry, is to sign up for beta tests. Now while it is better to take part in ones where you can go to the office and meet the developers in person, any test system where you are able to be in direct contact with a developer is a good one. For example, since I live about 2 hours out of Raleigh I took part in both in house Alpha tests and online Beta tests with the developers of Ubisoft Redstorm, for Ghost Recon Future Soldier, and I still have contact with Scott Shirhall, their QA Analyst and Playtest Coordinator....even had a nice conversation with him when I ran into him at this past ECGC when he was manning the Ubisoft booth.

Unfortunately, Brainbench is a bit underrecognized when it comes to stuff like this. Microsoft certification could be good but I'm not sure whether that's completely viable, considering you still have to have shipped a game or two. Plus, aside from Full Sail, there really isn't much of anyone I could group up with. Or I could sell my soul to EA Tiburon. But feelsbadman

[CrimsonStrife]

Unfortunately, Brainbench is a bit underrecognized when it comes to stuff like this. Microsoft certification could be good but I'm not sure whether that's completely viable, considering you still have to have shipped a game or two. Plus, aside from Full Sail, there really isn't much of anyone I could group up with. Or I could sell my soul to EA Tiburon. But feelsbadman

 

I wasn't saying specifically use BrainBench lol, mainly just giving you a list of the type of certs to look for, and when it comes to programming, Microsoft's test will probably have some of the most respected results...the trick to the shipped game is getting in as a tester, if you talk to anyone actually in a company, many of them started off as testers. And the advantage there is, (while the one example I gave above doesn't represent it) it is more of an entry level position, and while some companies would still like for you to have a shipped title, it becomes much less of a deal breaker....

 

But even there, I think a few certifications would help you out...and your going to at least need a basic associates degree...even if you don't pick a specific major.

 

As far as the beta thing...look around online, sign up for some that don't require you to travel....seeing as how BF3 has been released and I am no longer under an NDA, I can talk about this, I alpha tested it over the internet long before it released...and was in contact with several developers during that time frame....and did it all without leaving my home.

[eezstreet]

What kind of degree would you need for that?

[CrimsonStrife]

You mean for a beta?

None, these are typically open to the public, but are done via a random selection, they don't pay (not typically) and are not very long term situations, but they are a fantastic way to make contacts.

Most of these are play testing and not bug related too.

[eezstreet]

You mean for a beta?

None, these are typically open to the public, but are done via a random selection, they don't pay (not typically) and are not very long term situations, but they are a fantastic way to make contacts.

Most of these are play testing and not bug related too.

I meant more like alpha.

[CrimsonStrife]

Alpha was done the same way...except I had to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement for the duration of the development I was not allowed to discuss the contents of the game or that I was playing it outside of my communication with them and the other testers.

 

These are a lot rarer however.

[Astral Serpent]

This conversation is fascinating, go on!

 

[CrimsonStrife]

We could take this to some very interesting places...

And actually, given that I am probably one of the few (although not necessarily the only) members here with formal education in game design, the ability to frequent Game Conferences, and with contacts in the industry, I could supply a whole slew of tips and information about breaking into the industry...although admittedly I am mainly just parroting back what I have learned, and in few cases speaking from personal experience.

[Scooper]

Well, I have a bachelor degree in Game Programming, if that counts? 3rd level linkedin connections to gabe newell and lots of other valve employees + other companies (probably). My game programming teacher has a lot of contacts apparently. =p

[CrimsonStrife]

Exactly...I figured I coudln't be the only one.

 

-Edit-

 

That reminds me...I really should add Scott to my linkedin, and see if I can't get some of the other Redstorm guys, they were fantastic.

Don't play their games with them though...they cheat like mofos.

Edited August 29, 2012 by CrimsonStrife

[Milamber]

I got a game development related education too bachelor in event production and interactive medias.

[CrimsonStrife]

And yet another one...lol...you know it sounds like we have enough people we could setup some sort of of guide or tips for the industry...though I suppose that is what this thread is serving as.