[Suggestion] New Simplicity Tool

[Lamented]

Hey, guys. Lately I tried out Noesis and it looked like a good export tool, BUT IT'S STILL MISSING A .GLM EXPORT FEATURE! Blender is so confining that it's damn near impossible to merge model parts together and make it something acceptable. DarthDementous notably thinks Blender sucks as a tool with that kind of purpose, and so he uses 3DS max but he can only use monthly trials of different versions. And 3DS Max is too expensive. X_X

 

I'm tired of having to grow reliant on others to do things like what I have in mind. What if we had a tool that even the noobs could take a good crack at.

 

I'm not suggesting a new entire modelling tool. I want something that can give you the freedom to edit model-wise (maybe even with freehand ease) and texture-wise (model painting, essentially) successfully without having terribly unhelpful viewpoints like what Blender offers. Something not as expensive as 3DS Max. And lastly, something that can export .GLM and make the rigging and weighing of JKA models seem a lot simpler. Complexity in these aspects is a b****, at least for me.

 

A tool that's expansive, helpful, accommodating, and FREE! Just for JKA. (Or not, whatever. Doesn't matter.) And keep in mind this is only an incredibly helpful and objectively great idea...

 

By the way, Mandalorian and I joined forces on this work. Feel free to send me suggestions on how to make it better.

http://i.imgur.com/J2PDnQ3.png

[Circa]

Developing something like that would take years, and wouldn't really be worth it considering the shrinking size of the JKA community. But yes, it would be very nice to have.

 

Also, the image link is broken.

[RichW]

Noesis has GLM and GLA export support now. Feel free to try it out and let me know in #jacoders if you run into any problems.

[Lamented]

Still doesn't do the skeleton shit for me, unfortunately.

[Cerez]

Still doesn't do the skeleton shit for me, unfortunately.

 

So the export feature is still not complete?

 

If nothing else it would be really neat to have a tool that allows you to import JKA models, tweak them, and export them back into the game. This would allow skinners to create whole new characters based on the existing models out there.

[Lamented]

Exactly. Why hasn't it been made that simply yet? O.i

[RichW]

"skeleton shit"? It imports the skeleton, just put the GLA for the GLM in the same directory as the GLM when you open it if Noesis isn't locating it on the path. This is as of 4.0984, if you're still using an older version you'll want to use the auto-update feature under the Tools menu as GLM and GLA export was added over the last couple of versions.

 

You're able to go GLM and/or GLA to FBX/other (I recommend FBX as the most feature-complete target format), and from FBX/other to GLM+GLA. So you're able to export existing models+animations to FBX, modify them, then put them back in the game. For example usage on the GLM side of things, see the .bat files and readme in http://www.richwhitehouse.com/filemirror/Noesis_JediAcademy.zip

 

I've tested re-exporting existing JA models just to make sure that the whole pipeline works, and as a test used Noesis's Final Fantasy 12 support to directly convert a FF12 model and animations to GLM+GLA with no actual modification/tweaking necessary: http://www.richwhitehouse.com/pubimg/ja_vaan.jpg

 

The game-ready converted GLM+GLA were produced with the following command line (not that you need to run it on the commandline, but I find it useful for setting up model conversion batches), for reference: Noesis.exe ?cmode c1004_00.ff12a model.glm -animoutex .gla -scale 25 -rotate 270 0 0 -posoffset 0 0 -24 -g2exanimname "models/players/vaan/rlx_idle00" -g2exanimconfig -renamebone "bone000" "model_root" -g2exfakehierarchy

 

So, enjoy. Keep in mind that Noesis is a tool for asset conversion/preview/processing, not for actual interactive editing, but if there's something else you're referring to that you want it to do, then please do be more specific.

[Cerez]

This sounds very interesting, Rich. I'm going to have to have a look at this software and browse through the documentation in detail. Is the link you provided above the most current release of the software?

 

EDIT: Nevermind, you have it clearly informed/linked on your website. Downloading now.

[Cerez]

Rich, I definitely like what I'm seeing so far. It's a well designed software, and it's certainly importing/displaying the JKA models correctly.

 

A couple of questions:

 

1. Is there any way to toggle the display of textures on the model (in the way that ModView does)?

 

2. Is there a model editing interface that allows one to tweak the model (i.e. select and grab certain points and portions to move, scale, and deform them)? If not, this would be a great feature to add. A simple to use editing interface for tweaking models.

[Boothand]

Have any of you signed up for a free student license of 3ds Max or other Autodesk software? The only requirement is that you are a student, somewhere.

http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/all

[Cerez]

Have any of you signed up for a free student license of 3ds Max or other Autodesk software? The only requirement is that you are a student, somewhere.

http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/all

 

I think we're both looking for a tool that doesn't require advanced training to use. Just something simple that allows you to drag and sculpt portions of the model on the fly. Thanks for the tip, though.

[Futuza]

I think we're both looking for a tool that doesn't require advanced training to use. Just something simple that allows you to drag and sculpt portions of the model on the fly. Thanks for the tip, though.

Sorry to disappoint, but that's impossible.  I know of no modelling software that magically makes sculpting a model easy.  Modelling is a work of art, much like painting or sketching.  You can't just make a magical paintbrush that makes you a good artist.  Becoming a good artist requires advanced training.  Modelling is the same way.  This is why people get degrees in it/spend years of their lives learning to do it.

 

 

 

2. Is there a model editing interface that allows one to tweak the model (i.e. select and grab certain points and portions to move, scale, and deform them)? If not, this would be a great feature to add. A simple to use editing interface for tweaking models.

This is not a simple feature at all.  That'd be making Noesis a whole modelling suite in itself.  If you want something like this, I wouldn't expect it to be free or be as easy as you make it sound.  What's so hard about existing modelling programs?

[Cerez]

What's so hard about existing modelling programs?

 

Only that they take a technical mind to learn.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Noesis should be turned into 3DS Max or Maya. All I'm saying is that it would really handy to have a software out there that allows almost everyone to do minor adjustments and shaping in a model without the need to spend much time learning the nuts and bolts of 3D modelling software.

 

Don't be an elitist, Darth Futuza. Just because a tool that makes editing easier is available doesn't make modelling less of a challenge or skill.

 

You have digital tools for painting that make certain aspects of painting easier. They don't make the art of painting any less of a challenge, however. The best of a trade will always stay the best. Tools cannot change that.

[Boothand]

I think the main suspense here is whether you'd have to re-rig the models after tweaking the vertices, and the way I understood it, Noesis only converts file formats, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can imagine you only can tweak so much before it gets weighty-wonky)  In that case, the main issue isn't whether or not it's simple to tweak vertices in any standard modeling programs, but whether you're up to the technical task of re-doing weights (and possibly UV mapping, depending on the impact of your edits).

 

Simply editing and adjusting already finished models wouldn't be more simple if it was built into unrelated software like Noesis, or into a *super simple tool*. Standard 3D softwares all are fairly simple when it's just about tweaking what's already there, and if it's too technical you could try Zbrush/Mudbox for another approach (with model painting too).

[Cerez]

Thanks for these thoughts and suggestions, Boothand. The kind of tweaking I am talking about would be facial features, arm and legs width/size, etc. Things that help with skinning. I imagine you wouldn't need to do re-weighting with such simple tweaks, but they would help tremendously when it comes to fitting a new skin design onto an existing model.

 

How many times have we wished we could just change that nose to be a bit flatter or those eyelashes to be a bit shorter to fix the look of our character! With a simple shaping tool like this skinners could do their own little tweaking without the need to bother model-makers unnecessarily with minor edits. I honestly think a simple tool with a feature like this would be treasured.

[CrimsonStrife]

I think the main suspense here is whether you'd have to re-rig the models after tweaking the vertices, and the way I understood it, Noesis only converts file formats, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can imagine you only can tweak so much before it gets weighty-wonky)  In that case, the main issue isn't whether or not it's simple to tweak vertices in any standard modeling programs, but whether you're up to the technical task of re-doing weights (and possibly UV mapping, depending on the impact of your edits).

 

Simply editing and adjusting already finished models wouldn't be more simple if it was built into unrelated software like Noesis, or into a *super simple tool*. Standard 3D softwares all are fairly simple when it's just about tweaking what's already there, and if it's too technical you could try Zbrush/Mudbox for another approach (with model painting too).

 

This, any change to the way the file remembers the verts will make the weighting all wonky.  So in reality, you would only force more work upon yourself trying to edit a mesh.

 

 

Only that they take a technical mind to learn.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Noesis should be turned into 3DS Max or Maya. All I'm saying is that it would really handy to have a software out there that allows almost everyone to do minor adjustments and shaping in a model without the need to spend much time learning the nuts and bolts of 3D modelling software.

 

Don't be an elitist, Darth Futuza. Just because a tool that makes editing easier is available doesn't make modelling less of a challenge or skill.

 

You have digital tools for painting that make certain aspects of painting easier. They don't make the art of painting any less of a challenge, however. The best of a trade will always stay the best. Tools cannot change that.

 

He isn't being an elitist. If anything, you're just misunderstanding him.  What he is trying to explain, is that what your wanting, this ability to edit meshes on the fly, and be able to pop them back in game.  Isn't possible, not due to a lack of technology even...because there are some modern day pipelines for modern day game engines, that can handle the live editing of assets...but because the data structures and formats we are dealing with here, are too old to have that kind of flexibility.  You don't really even need to learn to "model", try getting by on "Frankenstein-ing" existing models from the game together, you'll still have to learn the way to rig a skeleton, and how to use one of these software packages, but that's the only way you can expect to do this.

 

Quite literally this:

All I'm saying is that it would really handy to have a software out there that allows almost everyone to do minor adjustments and shaping in a model without the need to spend much time learning the nuts and bolts of 3D modelling software.

 

Is what we are trying to tell you isn't possible, at least not in any simple (or cheap) fashion. All that Noesis software is doing, is decoding one software format, and encoding it into another, but to add in a editing process, you would essentially HAVE to develop a basic package similar to what Max, Maya, and the like have.  Because once you change the mesh, it's weights are fairly useless.  It's no longer going to animate how it should, and you'd have to not only understand what that means and how to fix it, but have a "simple" to use software that can allow the user to fix it.

Could the software be developed? Yes, but it would take a long-long time, especially with little to no financial backing.

BUT you would STILL have to be able to fix issues cause in weights and the like.

 

So despite the software package, you still need a basic understanding of the principles behind the process.

 

Thanks for these thoughts and suggestions, Boothand. The kind of tweaking I am talking about would be facial features, arm and legs width/size, etc. Things that help with skinning. I imagine you wouldn't need to do re-weighting with such simple tweaks, but they would help tremendously when it comes to fitting a new skin design onto an existing model.

 

How many times have we wished we could just change that nose to be a bit flatter or those eyelashes to be a bit shorter to fix the look of our character! With a simple shaping tool like this skinners could do their own little tweaking without the need to bother model-makers unnecessarily with minor edits. I honestly think a simple tool with a feature like this would be treasured.

These changes would still mandate you to fix weights. If you move a vert even a millimeter in a direction, it's data will change.

[Cerez]

Boothand, does Zbrush allow you to stretch and shape certain surfaces and adjust vertices with just a select and drag of the mouse?

 

 These changes would still mandate you to fix weights. If you move a vert even a millimeter in a direction, it's data will change.

 

Thanks for your input, CloudStrife. I'm trying to understand this... what sort of implications would stretching the cheek to a rounder shape have on the in-game model for example? Why does it need weight fixing?

 

I would expect the weight and other data to shift with the moved mesh surface. Is this not the case?

[RichW]

Well, you're exporting with weighting intact, so you can certainly modify the geometry and retain the weighting data. Chances are, if you modify the vertices/topology significantly, the weighting will look wrong and you'll have to adjust it and/or add weights for new verts, but adjusting the broken portion is a far cry from having to re-weight the whole model if you just want to make selective modifications. A weight is defined as just a bone index and an influence factor for that bone when you're working with this data post-export and modeling in bind space, so a good editor will handle modification of the underlying geometry in a non-destructive way. Max is pretty good at letting you modify the underlying geometry without throwing a fit, since you can just work undernearth the skin modifier on your modifier stack. Max also happens to be my own modeling tool of choice, but I'm certainly not a modeler by trade.

 

Regarding display of textures, Noesis will auto-display them if it can find them on the path or in the model directory, and if they're specified in the surface's shader field. That works well for JK2 models, but JA models usually have their shader string cleared because they rely on the skin file to specify shader/texture for each surface. Noesis doesn't parse that file at the moment, but if you'd find it helpful that'd be simple enough to add.

 

I've generally gone out of my way to avoid adding interactive editing features to Noesis, because I feel like it'd expand the scope way beyond what I could comfortably maintain in my spare time. It is quite possible to make editing tools through the tools plugin system, though, and there's a triangle picker example up on the repository at code.google.com/noesis-plugins-official/. Not that I expect anyone to actually endeavor to make a plugin tool editing suite, but the tools to make tools are there if anyone wants it that badly.

[Cerez]

Thanks Rich.

 

Regarding display of textures, Noesis will auto-display them if it can find them on the path or in the model directory, and if they're specified in the surface's shader field. That works well for JK2 models, but JA models usually have their shader string cleared because they rely on the skin file to specify shader/texture for each surface. Noesis doesn't parse that file at the moment, but if you'd find it helpful that'd be simple enough to add.

 

I think that would come in handy if we're using the software to preview/convert JA models. It should be something the user can toggle (along with the shading and wireframe). If it's not too much trouble, I think it would help to add.

 

With a texture refresh option it would essentially replace the need for ModView, and combine its functionality with the many conversion features of Neosis.

 

On a related note, any plans to port Noesis to Mac/Linux?

 

I've generally gone out of my way to avoid adding interactive editing features to Noesis, because I feel like it'd expand the scope way beyond what I could comfortably maintain in my spare time.

 

With all that Noesis can render already, do you think it would be a lot of work to add just basic mesh stretching/editing options that leaves the general structure of the model intact? I'm really curious about this because it would really create a unique tool for character designers/skinners/painters.

[Futuza]

Only that they take a technical mind to learn.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Noesis should be turned into 3DS Max or Maya. All I'm saying is that it would really handy to have a software out there that allows almost everyone to do minor adjustments and shaping in a model without the need to spend much time learning the nuts and bolts of 3D modelling software.

 

Don't be an elitist, Darth Futuza. Just because a tool that makes editing easier is available doesn't make modelling less of a challenge or skill.

 

You have digital tools for painting that make certain aspects of painting easier. They don't make the art of painting any less of a challenge, however. The best of a trade will always stay the best. Tools cannot change that.

Basically what CrimsonStrife already said.  However, as others have mentioned, adjusting a model using Maya/Max/Blender isn't all that hard.  Just because these software packages can be extremely complicated, doesn't mean you have to know everything about them.  Just enough to do what you want.

 

Basically from what I'm understanding what you want is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVBPHI4UXfE

 

Only for JKA instead of Unity (not sure if it supports other things properly yet).

 

 

 

With all that Noesis can render already, do you think it would be a lot of work to add just basic mesh stretching/editing options that leave the general structure of the model intact?

 

Yes, it'd be a lot of work.  Remember this guy is making this all out of the goodness of his heart and free time.  Maybe if you decided to pay Rich a competitive salary to compensate him for all his hard work in making such a package, it might happen, but really...what would it be able to do that Blender (which is free) couldn't?  Just seems like a waste of time overall to me.

 

 

EDIT: Just found this: http://www.makehuman.org/  Seems legit, also open-source...

Edited July 9, 2014 by Darth Futuza

[Cerez]

Basically from what I'm understanding what you want is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVBPHI4UXfE

 

Only for JKA instead of Unity (not sure if it supports other things properly yet).

 

Not quite, Darth. I'm not looking for a character builder. I'm looking for an easy-to-use export-import model tweaking tool. But that tool looks interesting for its own purpose, nonetheless.

 

Yes, it'd be a lot of work.  Remember this guy is making this all out of the goodness of his heart and free time.  Maybe if you decided to pay Rich a competitive salary to compensate him for all his hard work in making such a package, it might happen, but really...what would it be able to do that Blender (which is free) couldn't?  Just seems like a waste of time overall to me.

 

I repeat that this wouldn't necessarily benefit advanced modellers, as you guys can already do all the tweaks you need with your skills and setup. It would be a big help to character designers, painters and skinners, who have had no previous knowledge with professional 3D editing software.

 

I never said I'm not ready to finance this project. With the right incentive maybe I will… (In either case I will certainly donate to Rich for his efforts.) But more importantly I'm offering a new idea that may help to elevate Neosis to a whole new level and gather attention and support from the greater community. Especially if Neosis was made available for the Mac and Linux platforms as well.

 

I speak from experience when I say that ModView has been a nightmare to work with on the Mac platform. And Max, Maya, Blender, and Mod Tools are a nightmare to work for a beginner.

[Circa]

I speak from experience when I say that ModView has been a nightmare to work with on the Mac platform. And Max, Maya, Blender, and Mod Tools are a nightmare to work for a beginner.

ModView works fine for me on Mac.

[Xycaleth]

I'm not sure how you can make dragging a few vertexes around much easier in modeling programs. It's a matter of selecting the vertex editing tool, and then click/dragging the vertex you want to move o.O same with triangles. But the problem of weighting still stands - you can only change so much before the weights become useless as your model will deform incorrectly when it animates.

[Cerez]

ModView works fine for me on Mac.

 

Yeah, it's like scratching your back with your arm wrapped around your head. XD

 

Not everyone knows how to work Wineskin, and emulating just for the sake of running a small preview tool sucks. Not to mention that Wineskin wrappers require maintenance when you're migrating to a newer OS release.

 

That's why it's nice of you to offer and maintain the packages on your site.

 

But the point still stands.

 

I'm not sure how you can make dragging a few vertexes around much easier in modeling programs. It's a matter of selecting the vertex editing tool, and then click/dragging the vertex you want to move o.O same with triangles. But the problem of weighting still stands - you can only change so much before the weights become useless as your model will deform incorrectly when it animates.

 

And the conversion process is a hassle. Heh… would you laugh if I told you that I still haven't found the vertex select tool in Mod Tools? >.<' I can't even figure out how to rotate the bloody view!

[Boothand]

Boothand, does Zbrush allow you to stretch and shape certain surfaces and adjust vertices with just a select and drag of the mouse?

 

Yeah, both Zbrush and Mudbox does that. You can get Mudbox with a student license, I'm sure. Look up some speed sculpting videos on youtube, and to give you an idea: http://stephaneginier.com/sculptgl/