What does it mean to be a great Jedi?

[Mizore]

what kind of balance is there in the dominance of a single oposite? light, or dark, that's not balance, that's imbalance.

 

 

 

It is if lightside is defined as peace, balance, while darkside is war, imbalance.

[Mizore]

 

Can they? I question that. People generally don't seem to notice when something they're used to is around. Only when it is gone do they pay attention to it.

 

 

While I cannot (and do not want to) deny this, I will draw attention to the fact that without a dynamic between opposing powers, it is generally observed, in human behaviour, that things will go stale, progress will be halted, people will go lazy. It seems to me humanity needs conflict, and if the Jedi Code is to be followed to the fullest, there would be no room for any conflict at all.

 

It seems to me that the Jedi are the other extreme.

 

Although some do not value peace without war, it is not right to create a war to value peace, it seems to me.

 

I do not think the Jedi deny that some pinch of conflict is necessary for the living beings; What they deny is that there is only conflict, or that the balance of Force is a balance between conflict and non-conflict, because when conflicts begin, they tend to increase uncontrollably, making balance impossible.

[Cerez]

I do not think the Jedi deny that some pinch of conflict is necessary for the living beings; What they deny is that there is only conflict, or that the balance of Force is a balance between conflict and non-conflict, because when conflicts begin, they tend to increase uncontrollably, making balance impossible.

Yet in all their wisdom they could not foresee that fighting for one side to end a conflict is not a position they should put themselves under, or that a boy who has lost everything needs love above all to grow up balanced, and strengthen his character. It seems to me the Jedi took their ideologies a little too to the point and literally. They became extrmists on the other side in the face of pressure.

[Boothand]

Yes, the Jedi might take things too far, like I said, but it's mostly relevant to the Jedi themselves, not an entire society, or planet. They would be like a bunch of galactic cops with a surprisingly restrictive ruleset on themselves. Whether the rules are good or bad for the Jedi is one discussion, but in the bigger picture, there will be peace and democracy and progress and more good things we have today. Luke Skywalker might be confused about being denied the feelings for his sister, and Anakin would maybe still think the Jedi are evil, but CHEWBACCA will be happy. And C3PO. And Lando's friend who says "Jaha" when they blew up the deathstar. Also Lando. And most people.

 

Scenario: There is no wars, Jedi are in control. What extremist things do they do that impact society?

[Mizore]

Yet in all their wisdom they could not foresee that fighting for one side to end a conflict is not a position they should put themselves under, or that a boy who has lost everything needs love above all to grow up balanced, and strengthen his character. It seems to me the Jedi took their ideologies a little too to the point and literally. They became extrmists on the other side in the face of pressure.

 

True, but those flaws are polished by Luke who is also Jedi.

[Cerez]

Scenario: There is no wars, Jedi are in control. What extremist things do they do that impact society?

The Jedi can co-exist with everyone else. That doesn't tip the scale of the balance. The extreme scenario would be if the Jedi had started either enforcing or inspiring others into following their own Code.

 

If you look at the Jedi Code, one thing becomes glaringly obvious: there is no room for human error, or even essential human traits, and such "trangressions" are rarely tolerated, if at all, in the Order.

• "There is no emotion" they say. But people truly live when they feel.
• "There is no ignorance" they say, yet what would you say is the most defining characteristic of human society? It's simplification, categorisation, and ignorance.
• "There is no passion" they say, yet what are we taught we need to follow in order to be our best? A life without passion would hardly get us anywhere, and a life without love would be a life wasted.
• "There is no chaos" they say, ignorant of the fact that chaos is an essential contrast to harmony, and that nature thrives in both.
• "There is no Death" they say, yet death is an inseparable part of the human condition that gives our lives meaning. We cannot cheat death. Even if our spirits do live on, we are not what we once were -- it is a permanent transformation.

In other words, to live like a Jedi, and live it truly, would mean to not be human. A society inspired by such ideals would stagnate, become stale and lifeless. In such an idealistic society bliss would become a chore because there would be no hard times to compare it to. Peace, and its meaning would ultimately be forgotten. People would lose all ambition, and exist only to exist with the world -- effectively becoming lifeless. The human spirit would die.

[Cerez]

True, but those flaws are polished by Luke who is also Jedi.

Luke's Jedi Academy was different in that it allowed for human error, it's true. Because of this it was more dynamic, as well. I don't know if we can say that the flaws were polished, but I would say that the New Jedi Order stood closer to Gray Jedi ideologies in that many of its Jedi basked in both sides of the Force, but ultimately chose to stay at a neutral ground. It wasn't closely following the traditional Jedi ways.

[Boothand]

The Jedi can co-exist with everyone else. That doesn't tip the scale of the balance. The extreme scenario would be if the Jedi had started either enforcing or inspiring others into following their own Code.

 

If you look at the Jedi Code, one thing becomes glaringly obvious: there is no room for human error, or even essential human traits, and such "trangressions" are rarely tolerated, if at all, in the Order.

• "There is no emotion" they say. But people truly live when they feel.
• "There is no ignorance" they say, yet what would you say is the most defining characteristic of human society? It's simplification, categorisation, and ignorance.
• "There is no passion" they say, yet what are we taught we need to follow in order to be our best? A life without passion would hardly get us anywhere, and a life without love would be a life wasted.
• "There is no chaos" they say, ignorant of the fact that chaos is an essential contrast to harmony, and that nature thrives in both.
• "There is no Death" they say, yet death is an inseparable part of the human condition that gives our lives meaning. We cannot cheat death. Even if our spirits do live on, we are not what we once were -- it is a permanent transformation.

In other words, to live like a Jedi, and live it truly, would mean to not be human. A society inspired by such ideals would stagnate, become stale and lifeless. In such an idealistic society bliss would become a chore because there would be no hard times to compare it to. Peace, and its meaning would ultimately be forgotten. People would lose all ambition, and exist only to exist with the world -- effectively becoming lifeless. The human spirit would die.

 

 

This, for me, is a very big IF. It's not designed as a thing every living being should strive to follow. It's not like Yoda would go knocking on doors and lecture them about the force and the Jedi code (remember how reluctant he was to even teach Luke?).

To me, the code is more like a warrior's code or meant for those who want to seek a spiritual path, something designed to keep the Jedi unseduced by the dark-side (although I don't agree with everything).

 

Our society is colored by/inspired by christian values, yet it was used to do horrible things through history. Now we've moved past some limiting traditions such as the forbidden gay marriage. My point is, it's not that black and white. You don't need a Sauron just to make sure an entire generation doesn't decide to become Jedi.

 

TLDR: Being a Jedi is not for everyone, it's for the few. Even if the Jedi code was like a world religion, society would adapt.

[Mizore]

The Jedi can co-exist with everyone else. That doesn't tip the scale of the balance. The extreme scenario would be if the Jedi had started either enforcing or inspiring others into following their own Code.

 

If you look at the Jedi Code, one thing becomes glaringly obvious: there is no room for human error, or even essential human traits, and such "trangressions" are rarely tolerated, if at all, in the Order.

• "There is no emotion" they say. But people truly live when they feel.
• "There is no ignorance" they say, yet what would you say is the most defining characteristic of human society? It's simplification, categorisation, and ignorance.
• "There is no passion" they say, yet what are we taught we need to follow in order to be our best? A life without passion would hardly get us anywhere, and a life without love would be a life wasted.
• "There is no chaos" they say, ignorant of the fact that chaos is an essential contrast to harmony, and that nature thrives in both.
• "There is no Death" they say, yet death is an inseparable part of the human condition that gives our lives meaning. We cannot cheat death. Even if our spirits do live on, we are not what we once were -- it is a permanent transformation.

In other words, to live like a Jedi, and live it truly, would mean to not be human. A society inspired by such ideals would stagnate, become stale and lifeless. In such an idealistic society bliss would become a chore because there would be no hard times to compare it to. Peace, and its meaning would ultimately be forgotten. People would lose all ambition, and exist only to exist with the world -- effectively becoming lifeless. The human spirit would die.

 

 

It is not part of the Jedi philosophy to force others to follow it. The Jedi code is not about what there is, but about what should be. It is an ideal that marks a route, although the goal is unattainable.

[Cerez]

TLDR: Being a Jedi is not for everyone, it's for the few. Even if the Jedi code was like a world religion, society would adapt.

But we are talking of a ideal world that is controlled by the Jedi, where the Dark Side, wild emotions, ambition, and temptations are no more. Where chaos is non-existant, and beings are in harmony with one another and at peace with the world, serene. The Jedi ideology is not an ideology solely to fight the Dark Side. It spans much further than that. It is to protect the universe's state at peace.

 

As old Obi-Wan put it in his own words: "For over a thousand generations the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic, before the dark times, before the emperor happened..." (Notice how he refers to the current state, in which the Empire rules, and there is law and order throughout most of the galaxy, as the "dark times" -- a striking contrast to the truth for most civilians of that time.)

 

In a world where there was no Dark Side to fight, the Jedi would attempt to right the wrongs elsewhere, and maintain peace and justice. Peace and justice from whose point of view? Their own. Which brings me to @@Mizore's argument:

 

It is not part of the Jedi philosophy to force others to follow it. The Jedi code is not about what there is, but about what should be. It is an ideal that marks a route, although the goal is unattainable.

While this is true while that goal is unattainable, Jedi are people, too, and if given the chance, through generations, they would aspire to inspire others to follow their ways to a degree, so that what they perceive to be the balance and harmony of the universe would persist.

 

Don't forget that as well as being protectors of the undermined, they are guardians of their beliefs first and foremost. As mentioned in my argument above, in a galaxy where there are no Dark Side temptations prevalent, the Jedi would aspire to end *all* conflict, and have the world at peace with itself. This is hardly in the complete interest of humanity -- it is only one part of our existence.

 

This is where I believe the Dark Side plays a beneficial role in the Star Wars universe, at the other extreme, to balance the Light.

[Ping]

@@Cerez, to create peace and maintain justice is not the same as making everyone into Jedi. I do not know why you think the end goal for the Jedi is to make everyone into a Jedi. After all, the end goal for the police is not to make everyone into a police officer, it's merely to maintain a peaceful and just society so that others can flourish.

[therfiles]

Wow this thread is so interesting. You guys are great!

 

I've always thought that being a good Jedi meant being in control. In the films, there is a lot of talk of the 'seductive' and 'quick and easy' quality of the Dark Side. The dark side was indeed powerful, but it meant taking an easy route: letting your power and feelings control you. When you can't control your feelings, you end up like Luke on Dagobah: he had the power to levitate the X-Wing but his unbelief and fear of the impossible kept him from doing it. Control is key. It's how Rey overpowers Kylo Ren: she has control over herself, while Ren (torn between the dark and light) has none. The dark side means giving over your control to the power that you control, and it will consume you. The Emperor is literally being eaten alive by his power. While he has strength, he is a slave to the dark side and the power he craves.

 

The Jedi Code is a way that one can control oneself, to excise the part of you that is chaotic and given over to your emotions. Reading it, it seems totally unfair and impossible. It seems to crush the humanity. That's why the old Jedi Order fell. It didn't recognize the deep-seeded need for love and belonging. Emotion needs to be controlled and understood not cut out entirely.

 

I always loved Luke's new order. It was clear that he was cognizant of why the old order fell into stagnation and what he had to do to stop it. But it's clear that such a teaching takes one dangerously close to the dark side (see Ben Solo).

[Cerez]

@@Cerez, to create peace and maintain justice is not the same as making everyone into Jedi. I do not know why you think the end goal for the Jedi is to make everyone into a Jedi. After all, the end goal for the police is not to make everyone into a police officer, it's merely to maintain a peaceful and just society so that others can flourish.

Let me draw you a direct example:

 

There are two tribes/people who have been at war with one another for centuries in an on-going rivalry fueled by passion and personal reasons/history. This on-going rivalry has helped produce superior technology, a rich culture filled with heroic tales, and able-bodied young people trained to fight for themselves and survive, perhaps even a pursuit for knowledge to conquer nature or the harsh elements the tribes are living under (to gain an upper hand in the conflict).

 

The Jedi intervene, and in their "wise" ways end the conflict, forcing both sides to co-exist in mutual harmony. With this one action, imposed by a third party, the people of these two tribes may lose their sense of identity, have all their major progress halted, and be subjected to living in new, peaceful ways that are contrary to what they need to be strong for survival in their environment, and in the galaxy at large.

 

What the Jedi perceive to be "justice" and "peace" isn't valuable to all people. This is clearly stated many times over the Clone Wars. Many have allied to the Separatist cause not because they wanted to do harm, or cause destruction, but because they'd experienced that the Jedi ways have done them no good at all.

 

Sometimes it is best to let conflict, passion, even ignorance flourish (for a time), but this goes against the Jedi teachings.

 

Personally, I perceive the Jedi philosophies are just as one-sided as that of the Sith. They are good extremes, valuable in opposition to one another, but if one side wins, and extinguishes the other, the galaxy will be drifted out of balance.

[Futuza]

I haven't read all the thread, but I basically agree with Cerez with the difference being that the Sith are supposed to study both aspects of the force (they rarely do).  Its important to remember that Sith!=Dark Side.  The Sith are superior in philosophy and potency, because the embrace both light and dark sides.  Harmony has its place, but without conflict there can be no growth.  The Sith understand also that emotions are necessary and make the individual stronger for having them, but only so long as the individual is not controlled by your emotions, but rather uses them to accomplish good.  Anger can be a powerful tool, as can love.  However, if one is controlled by them they have already lost.  The Jedi once understood this, but have become so afraid of emotion and its power to control a person they sought to repress and deny it completely.  There's is a sad broken philosophy which cannot stand to reason. 

 

However, that being said the Sith order itself rarely follows its own philosophy and has many times embraced the Dark Side at the expense of forgetting the Light side.  The true Sith beliefs and practices are centered around balance and control, not impulse and one sidedness.  Another interesting aspect is that Jedi seek to be controlled by the force (they want to do its will, worshiping it as if it were a god), while the Sith understand it is merely a part of nature and seek to bend the force to their will instead.  One seeks to be controlled by the force, the other seeks to control the force.

[Ping]

Let me draw you a direct example:

 

There are two tribes/people who have been at war with one another for centuries in an on-going rivalry fueled by passion and personal reasons/history. This on-going rivalry has helped produce superior technology, a rich culture filled with heroic tales, and able-bodied young people trained to fight for themselves and survive, perhaps even a pursuit for knowledge to conquer nature or the harsh elements the tribes are living under (to gain an upper hand in the conflict).

 

The Jedi intervene, and in their "wise" ways end the conflict, forcing both sides to co-exist in mutual harmony. With this one action, imposed by a third party, the people of these two tribes may lose their sense of identity, have all their major progress halted, and be subjected to living in new, peaceful ways that are contrary to what they need to be strong for survival in their environment, and in the galaxy at large.

 

What the Jedi perceive to be "justice" and "peace" isn't valuable to all people. This is clearly stated many times over the Clone Wars. Many have allied to the Separatist cause not because they wanted to do harm, or cause destruction, but because they'd experienced that the Jedi ways have done them no good at all.

 

Sometimes it is best to let conflict, passion, even ignorance flourish (for a time), but this goes against the Jedi teachings.

 

Personally, I perceive the Jedi philosophies are just as one-sided as that of the Sith. They are good extremes, valuable in opposition to one another, but if one side wins, and extinguishes the other, the galaxy will be drifted out of balance.

1. I agree that all struggle leads to advances of various kinds, but if war is the only form of struggle they have, all progress will be aimed at destroying the other side and therefore will focus on instruments of war, be they weapons or propaganda. Instead of focusing on weapons, they could be focusing on other things instead, things that benefit both sides equally well without bringing about anyone's destruction. In fact, if they are at war, they will try to hinder the progress of the other by any means necessary, which means that manufacturing and research centers, including their top scientists, (both of which could be used for better things than the production and research of weapons anyways,) will be prized targets.

 

2. Even the sole scenario that there is a war going on between two groups is based on the assumption that there is peace and political stability within each group. Without peace and political stability in either group, there could be no war between them. In fact, defeating the other side is just a high-end goal that each group as a political unity has, and they could not pursue any high-end goals at all without peace and political stability. Making peace between them would merely increase the group size and make it possible to redirect their efforts from mutual destruction to other, less crude goals (like furthering mankind's knowledge of the world or taming suns).

 

3. They don't have to lose their identity if they suddenly were at peace, if by identity you mean something like being a martial people with a strong militaristic tradition. They can train, prepare, strategize and orient their lifestyle around war without actually having to fight anyone or anything. They can specialize without having to be involved in any current or even prospective wars; Sparta being the best historical example. In fact, all modern militaries are pretty much like that.

 

4. Even if they were to lose their identity if they suddenly were at peace, this would only mean that that which each group tries to achieve, namely wiping out the other, would bring about their own destruction. Self-destructive goals however are neither beneficial nor justifiable for those that have them. So they should give them up.

 

5. Again, even if they were to lose their identity if they suddenly were at peace, that does not have to be a bad thing. Traditional ways of living should not be cherished purely based on the fact that they are traditional, they should be cherished based on the fact that they are good. Sometimes they are not. In that case they should be abandoned. Identities are not sacred or permanent.

 

6. It is extremely implausible to claim that both groups need to have this war in order to "be strong in their environment and in the galaxy at large". A state that is at war wastes plenty of resources by attacking the other side instead of building up one's own economy, bolstering it through trade and developing technologies beneficial to all (e.g. nuclear plants instead of nukes). Furthermore, if both sides continue to fight each other so much, they will be easy prey for a third party to take over, which is what happened to the Persians and Byzantines in Asia Minor when the Arabs showed up in the 650s. It is far more plausible that neither group needs the war, but that all they know is that war. In that case, see point (4).

 

7. Even if the extremely implausible claim that both groups somehow need the war to not be consumed by their environment were true, then it would be very implausible that the Jedi would try to halt it by any means necessary because that would bring about the death of countless people, which is hardly something anyone would consider just. Since the Jedi are not supposed to commit injustices, they would try to find another way around it. If they don't, then they merely don't do that which Jedi are supposed to do.

[Mizore]

Don't forget that as well as being protectors of the undermined, they are guardians of their beliefs first and foremost. As mentioned in my argument above, in a galaxy where there are no Dark Side temptations prevalent, the Jedi would aspire to end *all* conflict, and have the world at peace with itself. This is hardly in the complete interest of humanity -- it is only one part of our existence.

 

This is where I believe the Dark Side plays a beneficial role in the Star Wars universe, at the other extreme, to balance the Light.

 

But the potential for conflict is ineradicable, so the Jedi do the right by pretending to end all conflict, even if some conflict is good in some sense.

[Mizore]

The Jedi intervene, and in their "wise" ways end the conflict, forcing both sides to co-exist in mutual harmony. With this one action, imposed by a third party, the people of these two tribes may lose their sense of identity, have all their major progress halted, and be subjected to living in new, peaceful ways that are contrary to what they need to be strong for survival in their environment, and in the galaxy at large.

 

 

Ping was ahead of me: losing the identity can be a good thing if the previous one was pitiful. The conflict can make you strong, but only in small quantity, because the horse of War is Ruin, and for that to be feasible, there are the Jedi.

[Cerez]

Ping was ahead of me: losing the identity can be a good thing if the previous one was pitiful. The conflict can make you strong, but only in small quantity, because the horse of War is Ruin, and for that to be feasible, there are the Jedi.

It is wrong to pretend to know what is right for others. You cannot know what is right for a person or a people without having lived with them, and gained an inner perspective on their lives. Even then, it is best to ask and to be respectful of their ways.

 

Tradition usually stems from practical common sense, and therefore in most cases is useful. It is wrong to judge another people's sense of identity and tradition with your own perspective for the same reason as my point above.

 

To enforce your own culture and view to someone else is not "creating harmony", but being oppressive.

[Boothand]

It is wrong to pretend to know what is right for others. You cannot know what is right for a person or a people without having lived with them, and gained an inner perspective on their lives. Even then, it is best to ask and to be respectful of their ways.

 

Tradition usually stems from practical common sense, and therefore in most cases is useful. It is wrong to judge another people's sense of identity and tradition with your own perspective for the same reason as my point above.

 

To enforce your own culture and view to someone else is not "creating harmony", but being oppressive.

 

About knowing what is right for one culture - you might not understand their culture, their way of thinking, but you can make rational estimations about the outcome of war and conflict, and their alternatives, like Ping just did.

As for the Jedi 'forcing' peace between two tribes, I don't see how this discussion helps resolve whether it's 'right' to be a gray Jedi, and the part about forcing your views and own culture upon them becomes a little niche in this scope, but even so:

 

If the Jedi are wrong to make peace between someone from another culture, how can it be right for a 'gray Jedi' to act in someone else's culture on behalf of balance in the force?

 

Follow-up question: If you see two 6 year old kids in China (or any culture different to our own) fighting to the death, one with a pitchfork and a buckler, another with a battering ram and riding on a slave, would you try to stop the fight?

 

As for tradition usually coming from common sense - I disagree very much, but won't go on about it since that's an entirely different ethical discussion.

 

 

To help us get on the same page about what we're talking about here, could you provide a specific example of something you (personally) would be willing to do (as a gray Jedi) in order to create conflict and war in a peaceful successful society?

[Ping]

It is wrong to pretend to know what is right for others.

No it's not, but even if it were, it would be wrong of you to pretend to know that not having the Jedi interfere is good for others. In fact, if the Jedi should not interfere, then why should the other group that aims to eradicate the first group?

 

If the Jedi are wrong to make peace between someone from another culture, how can it be right for a 'gray Jedi' to act in someone else's culture on behalf of balance in the force?

This really hits the nail on the head. Gray Jedi know very well that interference with others can be good because they know very well that establishing and maintaining balance in the force is good. The Jedi know the same, they just disagree about what establishing balance consists in.

 

But yeah, I really think the case for being a gray jedi is an extremely weak one. Maybe it would be much better if we were to define gray jedi in terms of just being light jedi who have left the order for reasons other than being violent and impulsive murderers.

[Mizore]

 

It is wrong to pretend to know what is right for others. You cannot know what is right for a person or a people without having lived with them, and gained an inner perspective on their lives. Even then, it is best to ask and to be respectful of their ways.

Tradition usually stems from practical common sense, and therefore in most cases is useful. It is wrong to judge another people's sense of identity and tradition with your own perspective for the same reason as my point above.

To enforce your own culture and view to someone else is not "creating harmony", but being oppressive.

 

Not necessarily, because in some cases yes, but not in others. The Jedi aspire to be wise, and therefore to know what is best for the all people. The Jedi have no problem mixing with a culture to understand it. 

 

The Jedi are not against tradition, on the contrary, but something is not necessarily good because it is traditional. It will have to be seen. And indeed, the Jedi do it from their perspective, like all people, but they are open to other perspectives as long as the red line of radical evil is not crossed.

[Cerez]

But yeah, I really think the case for being a gray jedi is an extremely weak one. Maybe it would be much better if we were to define gray jedi in terms of just being light jedi who have left the order for reasons other than being violent and impulsive murderers.

This is exactly what Gray Jedi are, effectively. They are Jedi who have decided to take their own pathways, and understanding of the universe. This is also why there is no Gray Jedi Code -- each Gray Jedi acts on their own accord, to their own perception. The one thing they have in common is that they no longer follow either the Jedi or Sith Code, and instead choose their own pathways, somewhere in-between.

 

If you seek belonging and guidance, you will not choose the path of a Gray Jedi Knight.

 

To be perfectly clear, I am not, nor was I at any point, advocating that the Gray Jedi path is any better or worse than the Jedi or the Sith pathways. Gray Jedi are just as flawed in their independent ways. It is simply the pathway that lies closest to me, personally.

 

About knowing what is right for one culture - you might not understand their culture, their way of thinking, but you can make rational estimations about the outcome of war and conflict, and their alternatives, like Ping just did.

Everything in (human) life is a matter of perspective. No-one can claim that their own perspective is above others in worth/value. To do so is to shut your eyes to the world of others, and to blindly follow your own views. What is "right" and what is "wrong" are subjective to your acquired values and up-bringing. There are only a handful of basic, primitive morals that all people of the world can agree on -- such as if you treat someone else with no respect, don't expect to be treated with respect in return. These are more in tune with human nature itself, and our natural behaviour.

 

To claim that someone's well-established tradition, or culture is wrong because one perceives it so from their own, "rational" perspective, and to act upon that to attempt to change their culture as an outsider, at least in my honest opinion, is ignorant and arrogant behaviour. It shows no respect to others' views and experiences (perspectives).

 

In history, this kind of behaviour has been commonly associated with religion-wide, nation-wide, and world-wide conflicts.

 

To help us get on the same page about what we're talking about here, could you provide a specific example of something you (personally) would be willing to do (as a gray Jedi) in order to create conflict and war in a peaceful successful society?

If I felt that the people of a city were getting stale, and unhappy in their status quo, I would assist a rebel organisation in rising to power, and overthrowing the current leadership, for instance, so that the dynamic nature of the Force would flow again, and, ultimately, life would return to the people.

 

Or if I perceived that the Jedi Order was gaining too much power and influence over the population of a planet, I would meet with the Jedi to challenge their power, and the right for their power in contrast to the balance in the Force. If they refused to listen, to show understanding, and to make a change, I might take my findings to well respected/feared Dark Jedi or Sith clans, and assist them in their goals to gain influence in that sector.

 

With the same spirit, if the rivalry between a Sith and a Jedi was causing a disturbance in the Force, and life balance, for the habitants of a town, or planet, I would consult both factions and attempt to find a compromise to end that rivalry, or move it somewhere where it does not cause such disturbance, but perhaps aids in progress instead.

 

But each Gray Jedi acts to their own impulses. There is no universal "right" or "wrong" in the Gray Jedi way. There is only the natural balance of the universe (the Force), and the individual within it as a part of it. Many Gray Jedi will not get along, and not share in their personal perspectives on different situations. The only common link they share is that, ultimately, they both care about the state of the universe, and are guardians of balance (i.e. they are both Jedi).

[Cerez]

And @@Mizore, I concede your point. I believe this perspective makes you a proper Jedi of the Order. In many instances, it is this confident perspective and approach of the Jedi that has brought peace and balance to the galaxy.

 

I've found an interesting illustration that relates to the balance in the Force, as most Gray Jedi perceive it:

 

[Boothand]

Everything in (human) life is a matter of perspective. No-one can claim that their own perspective is above others in worth/value. To do so is to shut your eyes to the world of others, and to blindly follow your own views. What is "right" and what is "wrong" are subjective to your acquired values and up-bringing. There are only a handful of basic, primitive morals that all people of the world can agree on -- such as if you treat someone else with no respect, don't expect to be treated with respect in return. These are more in tune with human nature itself, and our natural behaviour.

 

To claim that someone's well-established tradition, or culture is wrong because one perceives it so from their own, "rational" perspective, and to act upon that to attempt to change their culture as an outsider, at least in my honest opinion, is ignorant and arrogant behaviour. It shows no respect to others' views and experiences (perspectives).

 

I'm not suggesting that the Jedi, or anyone, has a world-given right to interfere with just anything and step all over cultural treasures, or to be more specific.. force all women in a city to stop wearing clothing designed to hide their skin, for example. Yes, this could lead to conflicts, wars if you take it far enough.

But! Think about all the collateral damage and innocent deaths that come from war. Even if the soldiers were somehow 100% willing and not-brainwashed to carry out the will of military leaders (in which case you could say their deaths would be entirely of their own choosing, but this is rarely the case or this simple), you would as a bystander and outsider have to accept that lots of innocent people would suffer. I do not 'accept' this, and would rather support someone coming in to help resolve or put the conflict to a halt.

 

This is not arrogantly imposing your views, it's protecting innocent people like yourself, people you recognize to have the will to live and be free from pain.

This is something I hope would go pretty much without saying, and if we can agree on this (saving the lives of innocent people and also soldiers is good), then we can continue - in which case you must specify more clearly where you disagree with what I've said.

 

If I felt that the people of a city were getting stale, and unhappy in their status quo, I would assist a rebel organisation in rising to power, and overthrowing the current leadership, for instance, so that the dynamic nature of the Force would flow again, and, ultimately, life would return to the people.

 

Why are the people unhappy? What specifically are we talking about? What kind of thing are the Jedi blindly suppressing that a whole city cannot seek to change through democratic processes (feel free to include examples from real life)?

[Ping]

I marvel at the fact that you can say this:

 

There is no universal "right" or "wrong" in the Gray Jedi way.

And then immediately in the next sentence say something like this:

 

There is only the natural balance of the universe (the Force), and the individual within it as a part of it [...] and [Gray Jedi are] guardians of balance.

... without recognizing that the two contradict each other.

 

This exact issue lies at the heart of what others and myself have raised against you previously, which you have yet to address. If 'there is no right and wrong', as you (falsly) claim with no arguments to back it up whatsoever, then the gray jedi cannot justify their actions to restore balance or to not permit the jedi to interfere in the politics of other places.

 

If there is no right and wrong, then we cannot justify non-interference because you cannot say the jedi would be wrong in interfering while at the same time claiming there is no right and wrong. Again, this applies to traditions as well: If there is no right and wrong, then we have no reason whatsoever to respect other traditions. In fact, then it cannot possibly be wrong to disrespect other traditions.