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the_raven

About Luke (potential spoilers, you've been warned)

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I've been looking through youtube for reviews on TLJ a bit, and noticed that a lot of people in the comment section were ticked off with Luke's death. Many complained that their favorite childhood character, and one that's had at least two generations of people growing up with, shouldn't have died in the film, or at least should have died a way more exciting death than just some over-exhaustion. Some of you, who've seen the movie, think so too, as I noticed. But let's think about Luke as a character, and let's leave out all the old canon, as well as new canon non-movie Luke material, aye?

 

Luke is introduced as a 19 year old farm boy from a desert planet, who's desperate to get out of the middle of nowhere in the middle of nowhere (a remote moisture farm in the middle of the desert on a desert planet outside of imperial space - can't get anymore nowhere than that). As all young people, he yarns for excitement and adventure, he wants to travel, meet people, and get new experiences. He's hoping to get accepted into the Imperial Academy, because apparently, that's the only way to learn new skills, and go places - thank you, Imperial Ministry of Propaganda. But his uncle will have none of it, either because he promised Obi-Wan\ Ben to look after Luke, or because he doesn't like the Empire, or because he simply doesn't want to lose a free helping hand on the farm, so there's a conflict between them, but Luke, being a good nephew, and a nice and trusting young lad, agrees to stay 'for one more season', because he knows his family needs him, and because he knows there's no way for him to leave without their help. As luck the Force would have it, Luke's uncle buys two droids that actually belong to the Rebel Alliance, and this kicks off the youth's adventure. First R2D2 runs off in search of Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Luke gets attacked by the sand people while trying to retrieve him. Strangely enough, for a person growing up on Tattooine, he's not very well accustomed to dealing with the Tuskens, and gets easily ambushed and overpowered, and Obi-Wan has to inform him of their tactics. Later, Obi-Wan introduces Luke to the Force, the story of Anakin Skywalker (Luke's mysterious father who was a navigator on a spice freighter, as he was told by his uncle) and all that good stuff. In the meantime, the Empire tracks the droids to the moisture farm where Luke lives, and kills his uncle and aunt, which means he's now free of any obligation to go anywhere he pleases. He grieves for his dead relatives, but it doesn't look like much, he pretty much just accepts it, and moves on. At the Mos Eisley cantina, knows better than to mess with some drunk tough-guys, but still ends up provoking them with his 'leave me alone' attitude. Later, he remarks at how the Millennium Falcon is a 'piece of junk', even though it's his only way of getting off Tattooine. Aboard the Falcon, and en route to Alrderaan, he gets his first taste of the Force, and although initially distraught that he can't deflect the training bot's shots - as all young and maximalistic people would - he gets encouraged by Obi-Wan to 'try it again with the visor closed'. He succeeds. Then they reach the Death Star where he meets princess Leia, and attempts to bust her out of prison. Now, I'm not sure how much tail a 19 y.o. in 1977 would get, but since Luke's from a remote farm in a desert, I imagine, he didn't get much either way (- none of the old canon material mentions him having a girlfriend on Tattooine in fact, if I'm not mistaking, but yeah, we've agreed to leave out old EU material). So he gets the hots for Leia, which later turns into a popular joke among fans. But this isn't explored much. They make their escape from the Death Star, and Luke proves to be quite a capable adventurer, managing to use a blaster rifle, a grappling hook, do a Tarzan jump, and even shoot a starship's turret against fast-moving starfighters. Later they reach the Rebel Base, where he participates in a defensive assault on the Death Star, and blows it up by using the Force, and his prior experience of bullseying Womp Rats in his T-16 back home, which saves the Rebellion. He gets decorated. A farmboy's dream of greatness becomes reality.

In the second movie, he's on Hoth, patrolling the snowy wastes, making sure there's nothing that can inform the Empire of the Rebellion's new base. He, again, gets ambushed by the natives, this time, a Wampa, and again, is knocked out. He wakes up in the Wampa's cave, and seemingly having had some remote training by Obi-Wan's ghost, Force grabs (now) his lightsaber, and defeats the beast before it can tear him limb from limb. He then tries to get out, but his fatigue (and it seems, the weather) gets the best of him, but before passing out, he calls out for Obi-Wan's ghost to help him, although it seems that by that point, he should be aware that ghosts can't really help him. He only survives thanks to Han, who stuffs him inside a dead Taun-taun. Once he's recovered, he gets a small confidence boost after Leia kisses him to piss off the overconfident Han. Proving himself a good pilot, he's charged with harpooning the Empire's AT-ATs, which are now onto the Rebels, and attacking. Sadly, his speeder is shot down, and his co-pilot is dead, so he improvises by using a grappling hook, his lightsaber, an a grenade, to blow up his target. Then he somehow makes his way to Echo Base, and onto his X-wing, using it to fly off to Dagobah, searching for Master Yoda, as advised by Obi-Wan's ghost, despite him having to regroup with the rest of the Rebels, as initially planned. Getting to Dagobah, he crashes, and feels like his decision to come there was a mistake, influenced fatigue-induced hallucination, but then he meets Yoda, who acts all obnoxious, to test him. A test that Luke fails because he's too arrogant to deal with cookie old characters. He also proves to be greedy by closing his supply case before Yoda could take some. Still, Yoda promises to take him to 'meet Yoda', but only after they went to his hut, where Luke first refuses to eat Yoda's stew, and later gets a change of heart once he finally learns who Yoda is. So he suddenly becomes all humble and respectful of the old hermit, because he's opportunistic, and wants to learn to be a Jedi. He even declares himself ready for anything, and not afraid. So then we seem him running around the forest-jungle, jumping and climbing, and listening to Yoda's preaching. Later he tries to get his X-wing out of the swamp, but fails, and gives up, but once Yoda does it instead, he feels even more of a failure, but still mans up. When he comes across the cave, he doesn't heed Yoda's advice, and still takes his weapons with him, defeating a version of himself in Vader armor. Later, after some more meditation, he gets a vision in which Han, Leia, and Chewie are in trouble, and runs off to save them, despite not being ready. He does promise to return, although strongly advised against leaving in the first place. Once he gets to Cloud City, he's led into a trap by Vader, who plans to freeze him in carbonite, and deliver him to the Emperor. This plan fails, as Luke proves to be a capable um...monkey. Despite putting up a relatively decent fight against a far more experienced fighter, ultimately, he's overpowered and cornered, and once he learns the final truth about his father, after a fit of denial rage, he decides to die rather than to join the Empire. But he doesn't die, and instead ends up hanging off of an antenna, from where he telepathically reaches out to Leia, and is rescued. Finally, he is reunited with the rest of the Rebels, gets a prosthetic hand, and prepares to continue the fight.

In the third movie, he sends his friends to infiltrate Jabba the hutt's palace, and save Han, but they get caught, and once he shows up himself, he likewise gets captured, while still outsmarted, this time, he's not knocked out. So they get taken to the Sarlacc pit where his seemingly back-up plan is used, and he saves everyone by using his lightsaber. From there, they find out of Death Star 2, and plan to destroy it, but realizing he's a liability to the mission because Vader can sense him, he turns himself over to the Imperials, so as to no thwart the Rebels' plan to destroy the shield generator, but also because he wants to turn his father back to the light side. After arguing with the Emperor, and a brief duel with Vader, he throws away his lightsaber, and claims he'd rather die a Jedi, which the Emperor is happy to grant, but when he starts whining like a little b@tch, Vader's fatherly feelings kick in, and he is saved. So he pulls Vader off Death Star 2 which is now falling apart. Finally, he is reunited with his friends, burns his father's suit, and looks happily into the future.

In the new trilogy, we know that he continued the Jedi tradition, and opened an academy. Here he taught his nephew Ben, and a number of other kids, but once he sensed the Dark Side in Ben, acting on impulse, he decides to murder him in his sleep. Moments before striking the boy, he hesitates, but that's enough for Ben to feel betrayed and tear the temple down, killing off everyone BUT Luke. Disappointed with himself, he again acts not as a Jedi Master, but as some inexperienced wannabe, and runs off and away from the Galaxy, and any responsibility, where no-one can find him, until Rey does. Once she does find him, he refuses to return to the Rebellion, and acts like a spoiled brat, acting how much of a badass he is in climbing the cliffs and fishing, and doesn't even want to listen to Rey. Later, once he notices her affinity for the Force, he agrees to train her, but as soon as she Force trances towards the Dark sinkhole, and he can't reach her, he freaks out fearing she'll be a second Kylo Ren that he'd create. So again, acting not as a Jedi Master, he tries to run and hide from his responsibilities, and tells Rey to get lost. She gives up on him, and it's not until he sees Yoda's ghost, who mocks him for not being wise enough that he realizes that it's time to face pull his head out of the stone-hut, and do what has to be done, so he projects himself onto Crait and helps the remaining Resistance troops escape while he's holding back Kylo Ren and his forces.

 

Generally speaking, Luke wasn't what everyone thinks of when they think of a Jedi Master; he's more real, more human. His failures come from a number of sources: he was too old to be trained as a Jedi, he didn't finish his own training, he was prideful (as he himself admitted), to name a few.

 

So to recap:

  • Did Luke progress between Ep4 and Ep8? Yes, he did.
  • Did Luke wisen-up? Only partly.
  • Is Luke really fit to be a Jedi Master? I don't think so, after all, he didn't even formally attain the rank of Knight.
  • Why did Luke die become one with the Force? I don't know. Some think it's because the hits Kylo delivered affected him through the Force, which may be plausible since Kylo got wet after contacting a wet Rey, but it's only a theory.

Either way, what I'm going at, Luke - despite being a great character, played by a great actor - isn't that much a big deal, so his death shouldn't be that big a deal also. I'm not talking of the character's iconicity in the real world, but of his overall progress in the franchise. Yes, he was a hero, but as a Jedi, he was pretty lousy, and not really worth all the rage.

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I mean it sounds like you are on to something, but I wouldn't contest Luke's status as an awesome Jedi. I think the prequels take away a LOT from Luke retroactively. Before the prequels, what was a Jedi? A knight that promoted justice, peace, tranquility, and used the force to help others and maintain balance. So, an angsty farmboy had a lot of heart-work to do: to be calm, to not act rashly, to be in control. That's what being a Jedi was all about - controlling yourself and, therefore, controlling the force around you. So his quick training makes a lot of sense once he got those principals down.

 

But the prequels jazz it up: all of a sudden, it's this 20-40 year full process with all these ranks, traditions, and silly rules. No love. No emotion. No real "feeling". They substitute abstinence for control. Instead of controlling what's around you, you shut it out. And that's why the old Jedi suck and Luke has a hard time bringing his experience to bear with the traditional tenants of the Jedi Order.

 

Luke came really far - he's powerful since he knows himself so much, but he's flawed. His failure undoes his progress. I loved his arc in the new film. I kinda wish I had more time with him, to see his new outlook play out more. But he represents the old way, and maybe it's necessary for him to move on. I don't think he died of exhaustion, I think he let himself go in a moment of peace. His time had come: he has secured a place for the next generation, and needed to transcend himself in order to help more (in a Ben in 5 and 6 way).

 

Anyway, hope that makes sense.

the_raven likes this

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Guest Redemption

Luke is the New Hope pal, the turning of the tide, what the whole OT was about. Yes, him being a Jedi was never really about him kicking peoples asses and oh he's so powerful... It was the fact that where Vader failed, Luke passed. The message was to never give into despair.

"Oh, cannot get his ship out. Always with you, it cannot be done... Do you not learn of anything that I say?"

He became a Jedi when be threw down his weapon... Waving about a saber has got nothing to do about what it means to be Jedi. An example would be, Neo's embracing of his role in the Matrix is what brought about peace, through his sacrifice. Luke's actions led to the actual Return of the Jedi, Anakin Skywalker, get it? That Vader, the OT... It was a story about REDEMPTION.

"Not a big deal?!?" You got caught up in the spectacle and like many others, do not get what made star wars stand out compared to the other scifi adventure films of its time. Yeah the action is brilliant but what makes it truely special, has been lost a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

MagSul, Jeff, Mand'alor and 4 others like this

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Honestly, I just feel a bit robbed.

 

I wanted to see Luke in one, if not final REAL lightsaber battle.

 

We needed more Jedi temple flashbacks of a younger Luke teaching others including Ben, to really drive home what got destroyed. We needed to see Luke as he was before snoke corrupting Ben.

 

Speaking of Snoke, why the hell is he dead? He was cut about the same place as Maul. I'd very much like to see Hux somehow bring him back to life, if only to kick Bens ass.

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I feel like we will never get a scene of Luke teaching or fighting as a flashback. For me the whole Kylo destroying the roof was just a cheap way to be done with this scene. Could have shown alot more like an actual fight instead of just using the force to crush the roof to end the flashback and the next thing we see is his hand reaching out of the ruins. 

 

I would have liked to see Luke facing a few knights of the ren before escaping

Blackwyrm^Heart and Smoo like this

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I've been looking through youtube for reviews on TLJ a bit, and noticed that a lot of people in the comment section were ticked off with Luke's death. Many complained that their favorite childhood character, and one that's had at least two generations of people growing up with, shouldn't have died in the film, or at least should have died a way more exciting death than just some over-exhaustion. Some of you, who've seen the movie, think so too, as I noticed. But let's think about Luke as a character, and let's leave out all the old canon, as well as new canon non-movie Luke material, aye?

 

Luke is introduced as a 19 year old farm boy from a desert planet, who's desperate to get out of the middle of nowhere in the middle of nowhere (a remote moisture farm in the middle of the desert on a desert planet outside of imperial space - can't get anymore nowhere than that). As all young people, he yarns for excitement and adventure, he wants to travel, meet people, and get new experiences. He's hoping to get accepted into the Imperial Academy, because apparently, that's the only way to learn new skills, and go places - thank you, Imperial Ministry of Propaganda. But his uncle will have none of it, either because he promised Obi-Wan\ Ben to look after Luke, or because he doesn't like the Empire, or because he simply doesn't want to lose a free helping hand on the farm, so there's a conflict between them, but Luke, being a good nephew, and a nice and trusting young lad, agrees to stay 'for one more season', because he knows his family needs him, and because he knows there's no way for him to leave without their help. As luck the Force would have it, Luke's uncle buys two droids that actually belong to the Rebel Alliance, and this kicks off the youth's adventure. First R2D2 runs off in search of Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Luke gets attacked by the sand people while trying to retrieve him. Strangely enough, for a person growing up on Tattooine, he's not very well accustomed to dealing with the Tuskens, and gets easily ambushed and overpowered, and Obi-Wan has to inform him of their tactics. Later, Obi-Wan introduces Luke to the Force, the story of Anakin Skywalker (Luke's mysterious father who was a navigator on a spice freighter, as he was told by his uncle) and all that good stuff. In the meantime, the Empire tracks the droids to the moisture farm where Luke lives, and kills his uncle and aunt, which means he's now free of any obligation to go anywhere he pleases. He grieves for his dead relatives, but it doesn't look like much, he pretty much just accepts it, and moves on. At the Mos Eisley cantina, knows better than to mess with some drunk tough-guys, but still ends up provoking them with his 'leave me alone' attitude. Later, he remarks at how the Millennium Falcon is a 'piece of junk', even though it's his only way of getting off Tattooine. Aboard the Falcon, and en route to Alrderaan, he gets his first taste of the Force, and although initially distraught that he can't deflect the training bot's shots - as all young and maximalistic people would - he gets encouraged by Obi-Wan to 'try it again with the visor closed'. He succeeds. Then they reach the Death Star where he meets princess Leia, and attempts to bust her out of prison. Now, I'm not sure how much tail a 19 y.o. in 1977 would get, but since Luke's from a remote farm in a desert, I imagine, he didn't get much either way (- none of the old canon material mentions him having a girlfriend on Tattooine in fact, if I'm not mistaking, but yeah, we've agreed to leave out old EU material). So he gets the hots for Leia, which later turns into a popular joke among fans. But this isn't explored much. They make their escape from the Death Star, and Luke proves to be quite a capable adventurer, managing to use a blaster rifle, a grappling hook, do a Tarzan jump, and even shoot a starship's turret against fast-moving starfighters. Later they reach the Rebel Base, where he participates in a defensive assault on the Death Star, and blows it up by using the Force, and his prior experience of bullseying Womp Rats in his T-16 back home, which saves the Rebellion. He gets decorated. A farmboy's dream of greatness becomes reality.

In the second movie, he's on Hoth, patrolling the snowy wastes, making sure there's nothing that can inform the Empire of the Rebellion's new base. He, again, gets ambushed by the natives, this time, a Wampa, and again, is knocked out. He wakes up in the Wampa's cave, and seemingly having had some remote training by Obi-Wan's ghost, Force grabs (now) his lightsaber, and defeats the beast before it can tear him limb from limb. He then tries to get out, but his fatigue (and it seems, the weather) gets the best of him, but before passing out, he calls out for Obi-Wan's ghost to help him, although it seems that by that point, he should be aware that ghosts can't really help him. He only survives thanks to Han, who stuffs him inside a dead Taun-taun. Once he's recovered, he gets a small confidence boost after Leia kisses him to piss off the overconfident Han. Proving himself a good pilot, he's charged with harpooning the Empire's AT-ATs, which are now onto the Rebels, and attacking. Sadly, his speeder is shot down, and his co-pilot is dead, so he improvises by using a grappling hook, his lightsaber, an a grenade, to blow up his target. Then he somehow makes his way to Echo Base, and onto his X-wing, using it to fly off to Dagobah, searching for Master Yoda, as advised by Obi-Wan's ghost, despite him having to regroup with the rest of the Rebels, as initially planned. Getting to Dagobah, he crashes, and feels like his decision to come there was a mistake, influenced fatigue-induced hallucination, but then he meets Yoda, who acts all obnoxious, to test him. A test that Luke fails because he's too arrogant to deal with cookie old characters. He also proves to be greedy by closing his supply case before Yoda could take some. Still, Yoda promises to take him to 'meet Yoda', but only after they went to his hut, where Luke first refuses to eat Yoda's stew, and later gets a change of heart once he finally learns who Yoda is. So he suddenly becomes all humble and respectful of the old hermit, because he's opportunistic, and wants to learn to be a Jedi. He even declares himself ready for anything, and not afraid. So then we seem him running around the forest-jungle, jumping and climbing, and listening to Yoda's preaching. Later he tries to get his X-wing out of the swamp, but fails, and gives up, but once Yoda does it instead, he feels even more of a failure, but still mans up. When he comes across the cave, he doesn't heed Yoda's advice, and still takes his weapons with him, defeating a version of himself in Vader armor. Later, after some more meditation, he gets a vision in which Han, Leia, and Chewie are in trouble, and runs off to save them, despite not being ready. He does promise to return, although strongly advised against leaving in the first place. Once he gets to Cloud City, he's led into a trap by Vader, who plans to freeze him in carbonite, and deliver him to the Emperor. This plan fails, as Luke proves to be a capable um...monkey. Despite putting up a relatively decent fight against a far more experienced fighter, ultimately, he's overpowered and cornered, and once he learns the final truth about his father, after a fit of denial rage, he decides to die rather than to join the Empire. But he doesn't die, and instead ends up hanging off of an antenna, from where he telepathically reaches out to Leia, and is rescued. Finally, he is reunited with the rest of the Rebels, gets a prosthetic hand, and prepares to continue the fight.

In the third movie, he sends his friends to infiltrate Jabba the hutt's palace, and save Han, but they get caught, and once he shows up himself, he likewise gets captured, while still outsmarted, this time, he's not knocked out. So they get taken to the Sarlacc pit where his seemingly back-up plan is used, and he saves everyone by using his lightsaber. From there, they find out of Death Star 2, and plan to destroy it, but realizing he's a liability to the mission because Vader can sense him, he turns himself over to the Imperials, so as to no thwart the Rebels' plan to destroy the shield generator, but also because he wants to turn his father back to the light side. After arguing with the Emperor, and a brief duel with Vader, he throws away his lightsaber, and claims he'd rather die a Jedi, which the Emperor is happy to grant, but when he starts whining like a little b@tch, Vader's fatherly feelings kick in, and he is saved. So he pulls Vader off Death Star 2 which is now falling apart. Finally, he is reunited with his friends, burns his father's suit, and looks happily into the future.

In the new trilogy, we know that he continued the Jedi tradition, and opened an academy. Here he taught his nephew Ben, and a number of other kids, but once he sensed the Dark Side in Ben, acting on impulse, he decides to murder him in his sleep. Moments before striking the boy, he hesitates, but that's enough for Ben to feel betrayed and tear the temple down, killing off everyone BUT Luke. Disappointed with himself, he again acts not as a Jedi Master, but as some inexperienced wannabe, and runs off and away from the Galaxy, and any responsibility, where no-one can find him, until Rey does. Once she does find him, he refuses to return to the Rebellion, and acts like a spoiled brat, acting how much of a badass he is in climbing the cliffs and fishing, and doesn't even want to listen to Rey. Later, once he notices her affinity for the Force, he agrees to train her, but as soon as she Force trances towards the Dark sinkhole, and he can't reach her, he freaks out fearing she'll be a second Kylo Ren that he'd create. So again, acting not as a Jedi Master, he tries to run and hide from his responsibilities, and tells Rey to get lost. She gives up on him, and it's not until he sees Yoda's ghost, who mocks him for not being wise enough that he realizes that it's time to face pull his head out of the stone-hut, and do what has to be done, so he projects himself onto Crait and helps the remaining Resistance troops escape while he's holding back Kylo Ren and his forces.

 

Generally speaking, Luke wasn't what everyone thinks of when they think of a Jedi Master; he's more real, more human. His failures come from a number of sources: he was too old to be trained as a Jedi, he didn't finish his own training, he was prideful (as he himself admitted), to name a few.

 

So to recap:

  • Did Luke progress between Ep4 and Ep8? Yes, he did.
  • Did Luke wisen-up? Only partly.
  • Is Luke really fit to be a Jedi Master? I don't think so, after all, he didn't even formally attain the rank of Knight.
  • Why did Luke die become one with the Force? I don't know. Some think it's because the hits Kylo delivered affected him through the Force, which may be plausible since Kylo got wet after contacting a wet Rey, but it's only a theory.

Either way, what I'm going at, Luke - despite being a great character, played by a great actor - isn't that much a big deal, so his death shouldn't be that big a deal also. I'm not talking of the character's iconicity in the real world, but of his overall progress in the franchise. Yes, he was a hero, but as a Jedi, he was pretty lousy, and not really worth all the rage.

 

No disrespect, but I honestly think that you're just trying to justify this shit movie to help yourself come to terms with it. I admire that because it's a much harder thing to do than to just shit on the movie, like I am, but you're reaching to establish the outline of your main argument.

 

It's an interesting picture that you've painted for sure. Particularly, the way that you've framed your argument.

 

This isn't the Luke that we know. His character has actually regressed from where he was in Episode V. Yes, V.

 

In Episode VI, he overcame the challenges before him and completed his arc. He overcame his inner conflict - his inner demons and struggles when he rejected the temptation to give in to the dark side which he had always had up until that point.

 

He had finally become a Jedi Knight after that. He completed his character arc.

 

Of course, people's personalities can progress and change over time, and Luke is no exception to that. However, the way that he (and the rest of the original cast of characters) have 'progressed' since Episode VI, is complete and utter nonsense.

 

Sometimes, things just aren't that complicated, and human beings are inherently very keen on spotting irregularities, or those things that just don't make sense - that don't appear right.

 

These characters are nothing like they were before, which is a problem for obvious reasons. Hence why you see so many people having issues with the way that the original cast have been presented.

 

So please, The_Raven, stop spamming your opinion over people's legitimate criticism of the film in an attempt to justify why it had to shit all over the already established canon.

 

Mark Hamill, Luke Skywalker himself, disagrees with you.

 

What's funny is that the forums you are making your argument on is provided by JKHub, a site where you can download amazing mods for the Jedi Knight series of games - and in this series of games, we are actually presented with faithful representations of the original cast of characters (such as Luke Skywalker) that demonstrate how these characters would have evolved after the original trilogy.

 

For a more accurate representation of these characters, simply watch the cut scenes for Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy on YouTube.

 

Pay attention to how Luke Skywalker presents himself, his wisdom.

 

Then try and explain to me how so many Star Wars fans and I are misguided with our outrage over The Last Jedi.

 

Good luck mate.

Mand'alor, Jeff and R4D1C4L like this

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No disrespect, but I honestly think that you're just trying to justify this shit movie to help yourself come to terms with it. I admire that because it's a much harder thing to do than to just shit on the movie, like I am, but you're reaching to establish the outline of your main argument.

It's an interesting picture that you've painted for sure. Particularly, the way that you've framed your argument.

This isn't the Luke that we know. His character has actually regressed from where he was in Episode V. Yes, V.

In Episode VI, he overcame the challenges before him and completed his arc. He overcame his inner conflict - his inner demons and struggles when he rejected the temptation to give in to the dark side which he had always had up until that point.

He had finally become a Jedi Knight after that. He completed his character arc.

Of course, people's personalities can progress and change over time, and Luke is no exception to that. However, the way that he (and the rest of the original cast of characters) have 'progressed' since Episode VI, is complete and utter nonsense.

Sometimes, things just aren't that complicated, and human beings are inherently very keen on spotting irregularities, or those things that just don't make sense - that don't appear right.

These characters are nothing like they were before, which is a problem for obvious reasons. Hence why you see so many people having issues with the way that the original cast have been presented.

 

So please, the_raven, stop spamming your opinion over people's legitimate criticism of the film in an attempt to justify why it had to shit all over the already established canon.

Mark Hamill, Luke Skywalker himself, disagrees with you.

What's funny is that the forums you are making your argument on is provided by JKHub, a site where you can download amazing mods for the Jedi Knight series of games - and in this series of games, we are actually presented with faithful representations of the original cast of characters (such as Luke Skywalker) that demonstrate how these characters would have evolved after the original trilogy.

For a more accurate representation of these characters, simply watch the cut scenes for Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy on YouTube.

Pay attention to how Luke Skywalker presents himself, his wisdom.

Then try and explain to me how so many Star Wars fans and I are misguided with our outrage over The Last Jedi.

Good luck mate.

I get where you're coming from, but personally, I never felt like Luke should have been THAT wise after ep6. Sure, the Death Star 2 ordeal gave him experience and an outlook, and things like that, but THAT much? I just don't think so. Maybe it's because I never got into the old-canon's post-movies lore, so I missed the character's development. If that's the case, then I admit my fault, but I was building my argument on the movies, not anything else - old or new (most of that eu lore never reached us here in east-Europe anyway).

The fans here, on jkhub, are focusing on Luke's old canon iteration, the one where he's wise and powerful, and it's their right, of course. But as much as I hate to admit it, the old canon is gone, and no amount of fan nostalgia is going to bring it back - we just need to face the facts. This is why I'm losing my interest in SW, and am slowly but surely coming to only accept the OT (the original movies, not the novelizations or later re-issues) as canon. No prequels, no sequels, no games, books, or anything. It's just easier to cope this way. But as yet, I consider just the movies - prequels, originals, and sequels - because who needs an expanded universe anyway? Everything seems to get one nowadays, it's becoming ridiculous and annoying, having to keep up with everything.

I was re-watching Empire and RotJ just now and was thinking 'My, but these movies really don't need an eu, or the prequels\ sequels'. If you turn off the fanboy, you can see that the movies were hardly any different from most other sci-fi flicks at the time, if maybe a bit better played out. But they were definitely made without franchising in mind - just a story that started out as one movie, but turned out to be two more movies, and then, into a whole mega-franchise. Compare that to nowadays cash-ins and money-grabs - every new blockbuster's made with at least 2 sequels in mind, a ton of merchandise, and so on - all style and no substance. Why the prequel movies worked (despite being what they are)? Because they were telling Vader's story, not Luke's, they weren't so dependent on the OT. Why the sequels don't work? Because they're telling Rey's story, but literally cannot function without the OT. The only way they can make anything original with the ST is by actually throwing away all the OT characters. It's something that they'll try to do with ep9, though they'll probably fail anyway.

And since when is posting one topic, however controversial, considered spam?

Also a question - if Mark Hamill himself disagrees with how his character was played out, why'd he agree to portraying him as such? He's a big celebrity, heck he's Luke Skywalker, surely he could have said something about how he wanted his character to end up, no?

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"I get where you're coming from, but personally, I never felt like Luke should have been THAT wise after ep6. Sure, the Death Star 2 ordeal gave him experience and an outlook, and things like that, but THAT much? I just don't think so. Maybe it's because I never got into the old-canon's post-movies lore, so I missed the character's development. If that's the case, then I admit my fault, but I was building my argument on the movies, not anything else - old or new (most of that eu lore never reached us here in east-Europe anyway)."

 

Well, I think you're sort of underscoring the experience and wisdom Luke gained after his encounter with Vader in Ep. V - he had already become wise by the time that he's shown in Ep. VI.

 

In fact, you're basically underscoring Luke's entire journey. Since I'm reluctant to type out an entire novel here about Luke, I'll just simply direct you to his Wookieepedia page to remind you of all of the shit that Luke went through in the original trilogy: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker

 

The idea that Luke somehow doesn't gain the type of knowledge, skills, abilities, and other characteristics throughout the original trilogy that would lead him to becoming probably the wisest Jedi to have ever lived (as he did in the Expanded Universe), is just absurd. To say the least.

 

And yes, wiser than even hundreds-year old Yoda was, and do you know why? Because Luke learned from Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi and Yoda - personally, one on one. They would legit continue to counsel him as force ghosts after they had passed away because they cared about him, they invested their knowledge into him and actually depended on him. The entire Star Wars universe depended on him, he literally had the fate of the world on his shoulders, so to speak. But even with all of that pressure, Luke stood resilient, worked to overcome the challenges before him - both external and internal, and learned from those experiences.

 

Also, I don't want to come off too strong here mate but if you don't know jack about Luke's character in the Expanded Universe then how exactly do you figure that you have as informed enough of an opinion to really argue against those types of fans that were disappointed by Luke's appearances in Episodes VII and VIII? 

 

You can understand Luke's character at a surface level from his appearances in the original trilogy and form a strong opinion on the matter, absolutely, but to totally exclude everything else from the debate just because Disney has recently discarded those expanded universe stories (spanning all the way from 1978 - 2014) from canon, is just somewhat irresponsible, perhaps even lazy on your part, wouldn't you agree?

 

But I digress, yes, I absolutely do believe that Luke's time on the second Death Star gave him the type of experience and outlook on Jedi/Sith philosophies that would craft him into becoming the wise Jedi Master (and eventually GRAND Master) that we saw in the Expanded Universe. I just think you're downplaying that to an extraordinary degree.

 

On the second Death Star, Luke legitimately redeemed his father, a freaking Dark Lord of the Sith, watched him overthrow the god damn Sith Emperor and return to the light as Anakin Skywalker before passing away in his arms.

 

There is so much complexity to that entire situation, I just cannot even imagine anything more deep than that to largely affect a character like Luke and transform him into an extraordinarily wise individual.

 

Luke's appearances in the Expanded Universe make sense.

 

"Why the sequels don't work? Because they're telling Rey's story, but literally cannot function without the OT. The only way they can make anything original with the ST is by actually throwing away all the OT characters. It's something that they'll try to do with ep9, though they'll probably fail anyway."

 

First of all though, are the new sequels really telling Rey's story? I can't bloody tell. So you tell me, because I hardly know a damn thing about Rey, even after Ep. VIII - and that's not my fault when she doesn't have any character depth mate.

 

And I fundamentally disagree with you by the way, it is absolutely not the case that the only way that the Disney cucks can make anything interesting in this new universe is by throwing away all of the characters from the original trilogy. Absolute rubbish mate. Wanna know how they can do that?

By being fucking original mate.

 

So yeah, the reason that they'll probably fail to be original in Ep. IX is not because they are somehow burdened by the prequels (which they completely ignore - the fucking autism of that makes me cringe) or the original trilogy (which is the entire reason why anyone even fucking cares enough to buy a ticket to entertain this shit in the first place), no mate, it is because they are utterly incompetent.

 

"And since when is posting one topic, however controversial, considered spam?

Also a question - if Mark Hamill himself disagrees with how his character was played out, why'd he agree to portraying him as such? He's a big celebrity, heck he's Luke Skywalker, surely he could have said something about how he wanted his character to end up, no?"

 

The only reason I called it 'spam' was because I saw you comment on the matter in another topic thread on these forums, which I may have been wrong in calling spam, though it just seemed to me like you were essentially shutting people down who had legitimate criticism for how these new films have handled the original cast of characters as well as the current state of the Star Wars universe in general. If I was wrong in that assessment, then you of course have my sincere apologies.

 

Your last point on Mark Hamill was just, well somewhat ridiculous. It's not up to him how his character is portrayed. When he signed the contract, he has already stated in an interview that he hadn't been shown the script. He just knew that Harrison was returning to his role already and that Carrie would follow suit, so he signed it.

 

What's funny is that Hamill actually did voice his disappointment to Director Rian Johnson about how he was choosing to handle the character of Luke Skywalker in Ep. VIII, but it seems that, at least for the most part, Johnson ignored him and pursued his own vision for the story.

That fucking cucklord.

 

In fact, I think there's strong evidence that Hamill had no idea that Luke dies in Ep. VIII until actually seeing the movie - I strongly urge you to look into that on YouTube.

 

All that being said, fair enough?

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"I get where you're coming from, but personally, I never felt like Luke should have been THAT wise after ep6. Sure, the Death Star 2 ordeal gave him experience and an outlook, and things like that, but THAT much? I just don't think so. Maybe it's because I never got into the old-canon's post-movies lore, so I missed the character's development. If that's the case, then I admit my fault, but I was building my argument on the movies, not anything else - old or new (most of that eu lore never reached us here in east-Europe anyway)."

 

Well, I think you're sort of underscoring the experience and wisdom Luke gained after his encounter with Vader in Ep. V - he had already become wise by the time that he's shown in Ep. VI.

 

In fact, you're basically underscoring Luke's entire journey. Since I'm reluctant to type out an entire novel here about Luke, I'll just simply direct you to his Wookieepedia page to remind you of all of the shit that Luke went through in the original trilogy: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker

 

The idea that Luke somehow doesn't gain the type of knowledge, skills, abilities, and other characteristics throughout the original trilogy that would lead him to becoming probably the wisest Jedi to ever live (as he did in the Expanded Universe), is just absurd. To say the least.

 

And yes, wiser than even hundreds-year old Yoda was, and do you know why? Because Luke learned from Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi and Yoda - personally, one on one. They would legit follow him as force ghosts after they had passed away because they cared about him, they invested their knowledge into him, and actually depended on him. The entire Star Wars universe depended on him, he literally had the fate of the world on his shoulders, so to speak. But even with all of that pressure, Luke stood resilient, worked to overcome the challenges before him - both external and internal, and learned from those experiences. 

 

Also, I don't wanna come off too strong here mate but if you don't know jack about Luke's character in the Expanded Universe then how exactly do you figure that you have as informed enough of an opinion to really argue against the fans that were disappointed by Luke's appearance in Episodes VII and VIII? 

 

You can understand Luke's character at a surface level from his appearances in the original trilogy and form a strong opinion on the matter, absolutely, but to totally exclude everything else from the debate just because Disney has recently discarded those expanded universe stories from canon, is just somewhat irresponsible, perhaps even lazy on your part, wouldn't you agree?

 

But I digress, yes, I absolutely do believe that his experience on the second Death Star gave him the type of experience and outlook on Jedi/Sith philosophies that would craft him into the wise Jedi Master (and eventually GRAND Master) that we saw in the Expanded Universe. I just think you're downplaying that to an extraordinary degree.

 

On the second Death Star, Luke legitimately redeemed his father, a freaking Dark Lord of the Sith, watched him overthrow the god damn Sith Emperor and return to the light as Anakin Skywalker before passing away in his arms.

 

There is so much complexity to that entire situation, I just cannot even imagine anything more deep than that to largely affect a character like Luke and transform him into an extraordinarily wise individual.

 

Luke's appearances in the Expanded Universe make sense.

 

"Why the sequels don't work? Because they're telling Rey's story, but literally cannot function without the OT. The only way they can make anything original with the ST is by actually throwing away all the OT characters. It's something that they'll try to do with ep9, though they'll probably fail anyway."

 

First of all though, are the new sequels really telling Rey's story? Because I can't bloody tell mate. You tell me. I hardly know a damn thing about Rey, even after Ep. VIII - and that's not my fault when she doesn't have any character depth mate.

 

And I fundamentally disagree with you by the way, it is absolutely not the case that the only way they can make anything interesting in this new universe is by throwing away all of the characters from the original trilogy. Absolute rubbish mate. Wanna know how they can do that?

By being fucking original mate.

 

So yeah, the reason that they'll probably fail to be original in Ep. IX is not because they are somehow burdened by the prequels (which they completely ignore - the fucking autism of that makes me cringe) or the original trilogy (which is the entire reason why anyone even fucking cares enough to buy a ticket to entertain this shit in the first place), no mate, it is because they are utterly incompetent.

 

"And since when is posting one topic, however controversial, considered spam?

Also a question - if Mark Hamill himself disagrees with how his character was played out, why'd he agree to portraying him as such? He's a big celebrity, heck he's Luke Skywalker, surely he could have said something about how he wanted his character to end up, no?"

 

The only reason I called it 'spam' was because I saw you comment on the matter in another topic thread on these forums, which I may have been wrong in calling spam, though it just seemed to me like you were essentially shutting down people who had legitimate criticism for how these new films have handled the original cast of characters as well as the universe in general. If I was wrong in that assessment, then you of course have my apologies.

 

Your last point on Mark Hamill was just, well somewhat ridiculous. It's not up to him how his character is portrayed. When he signed the contract, he has already stated in an interview that he hadn't been shown the script. He just knew the Harrison was coming back to the role already and that Carrie would follow suit, so he signed it.

 

What's funny is that Hamill actually did voice his disappointment with how Johnson was going to be handling his character in Ep. VIII, but it seems like, at least for the most part, Director Rian Johnson ignored him and went with his own vision for the story.

That fucking cucklord.

 

In fact, I think there's strong evidence that Hamill had no idea that Luke dies in Ep. VIII until actually seeing the movie - I strongly urge you to look into that on YouTube.

 

All that being said, fair enough?

I actually watched Mark reacting to Luke's death....And the look on his face...I got so angry and heart broken....I didn't just see him being sad...I saw LUKE SKYWALKER getting sad. I saw the JOKER getting sad. I saw Fire Lord Ozai getting sad. There were other thoughts, but I'll leave those left unsaid, cause Rian deserves them (karma) in another form.

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Also I wished we could see a full potential Luke Skywalker that state that Anakin never reached. Would have loved to see that with Luke.

 

Also in a game I would like to see it, like The Witcher 3 but with the lightsaber combat from Jedi Academy   :)

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Either way, what I'm going at, Luke - despite being a great character, played by a great actor - isn't that much a big deal, so his death shouldn't be that big a deal also. I'm not talking of the character's iconicity in the real world, but of his overall progress in the franchise. Yes, he was a hero, but as a Jedi, he was pretty lousy, and not really worth all the rage.

 

 

For me Luke represents hope to discover the authentic Jedi path, the new hope, because we have already seen the dark side of the Jedi in the prequels, so I think Luke deserves more prominence, how Luke understands the path of light. By founding the new academy and failing, it seems that Luke did not understand anything about the dark side of the Jedi, but that should have been shown shortly after the old trilogy.

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