From Clone Troopers to Stormtroopers

[The_CrY]

Just to be sure, this thread will contain minor SPOILERS for Ep VII and Star Wars Rebels.

 

That said, I am a bit confused on what Disney is doing to the continuity on Palpatine's army. George Lucas introduced them as clones in Ep II, but already in the very first Star Wars film, there is the famous quote "Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?", which I took to be a reference to the fact that all Stormtroopers are the same (as I'm sure, many of you did as well). Thus I naturally assumed a transition in armour design to be the only difference between Clone Troopers and Stormtroopers.

 

In EpVII, in a discussion between Kylo Ren and General Hux, they discuss their new Stormtroopers, which are not clones, but bred from birth and brainwashed, etc. They specifically speak of clones as an alternative from the past.

 

In Rebels, it has been announced that Clone Troopers were officially decommissioned after the Clone Wars and that they were replaced by Stormtroopers (which, I take it, were not clones then?).

 

Unless the Empire held a strict heighth requirement for the Stormtrooper vacancy, isn't this a major disruption of the continuity? I'm curious to see what explanations there are.

[Darth Sion]

Why are you worried about SPOILERS for a movie that has now been out for around 5-6 months? I would think the whole STAR WARS community will have seen the movie by now (if not more than once).

But to address your statement.. No, the Clone Trooper army was created on Kamino, to battle the Droid Army threat and continued right the way through Ep. III, upto the point of when 'Rebels' began, (this is after "Order 66"). The Clone trooper line was then rescinded and the remaining Clone Troopers were then turned into the first "Galactic Empire" Stormtroopers. How long after "Order 66" (and the great, Jedi purge) these Clones/Stormtroopers were being produced is unknown. But seeing as how they all come from the same assembly line, the only changes made, was to the armor, to fit the NEW image of the Empire. The only difference being, is that they all had inhibitor chips implanted within them, for them to carry out "Order 66". But some of the Clones, such as "Rex", "Fives", "Wolffe" and "Gregor" removed their chips during 'The Clone Wars', and after becoming old, moved to a modified AT-TE (As seen in SW: Rebels episode "The Lost Commanders").

 

'The Force Awakens' is set around 30 years after 'Return of the Jedi', so during that time.. From the ashes of the Empire (as it says in TFA title crawl), rose the "The First Order" and these new set of Stormtroopers, as you stated.. are not clones, but bred from birth and brainwashed.

[The_CrY]

The spoilers thingie is an old habit from when the film was fresh. It was probably unnecessary, you're right about that.

 

If you are right and only the older Clone Troopers were decommissioned, as we saw in Rebels, then that would ease my mind and allow for the continuity. But Rex, Wolffe and Gregor repeatedly talk down on Stormtroopers and clearly say they were 'replaced'. Hence my confusion. It could, of course, just be their way of expressing dissatisfaction with them being replaced by 'shinies'. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

[Circa]

After the Clone Wars, they stopped producing clones for the Empire, but they still kept those remaining soldiers around, from what I understand. They then opened an enlistment program, which is what Luke and Biggs were applying for, the Imperial Academy. Luke was originally wanting to be a stormtrooper, because it was the only tangible way to become a star pilot and get off of Tatooine.

 

So in a way they were replaced, but clones were thrown out by any means. They were just not being produced any longer.

 

Perhaps they did have a height (not heighth - thats not a word ) requirement for enlistment, but since many young people joined as cadets, there would be no way of knowing how tall they'd be when they grew to be adults.

 

Keep in mind, A New Hope was created first, with no intention of any sequels or continuation of the story or universe. So there are things there that may seem like "plot holes" or controversies, but I think that's a bit dramatic to say in most cases.

[Darth Sion]

After the Clone Wars, they stopped producing clones for the Empire, but they still kept those remaining soldiers around, from what I understand. They then opened an enlistment program, which is what Luke and Biggs were applying for, the Imperial Academy. Luke was originally wanting to be a stormtrooper, because it was the only tangible way to become a star pilot and get off of Tatooine.

 

So in a way they were replaced, but clones were thrown out by any means. They were just not being produced any longer.

 

Perhaps they did have a height (not heighth - thats not a word ) requirement for enlistment, but since many young people joined as cadets, there would be no way of knowing how tall they'd be when they grew to be adults.

 

Keep in mind, A New Hope was created first, with no intention of any sequels or continuation of the story or universe. So there are things there that may seem like "plot holes" or controversies, but I think that's a bit dramatic to say in most cases.

You've just pretty much confirmed what I said  . But yeah, 'A New Hope' was created first, with no intention of any sequels or continuation of the story or universe.

[The_CrY]

At least we can then agree that this is some sort of plot hole (which only became a plot hole with SW Rebels, to be fair), even though perhaps there are reasons to excuse 'details' like these from EpIV, as you say.

[NumberWan]

Well, this is an interesting question, because despite all changes in Star Wars continuation, we'll inevitably return both to new and old sources of Canon. When we had Episodes IV-VI it never bothered us, who the Imperial Stormtroopers are. For most they were quite identical, but simply humans. The Action Figures from 1970s might have suggested, that Stormtroopers were all the same in everything. But Leia's comment makes a hint, that stormtroopers are individuals, not copies.

The Clones on the other side were not a new creation during the OT films. It was said, that the war was between the Old Republic and the Clone Creators (using the Spaarti cylinders), some 50 years before Episode IV, and that the conflict was very severe, with Spaarti masters cloning some of the Jedi as well, turning them into Dark Jedi. The technology had one serious drawback: all clones got insane over time, and thus the soldiers of the Clone Army were expendables even after good service. This happened to Jedi Clones as well, and due to many accidents caused by these Dark Jedi, the distrust towards the Jedi grew very strong, and was eventually used by Palpatine to turn the society against the Knights of Peace and later destroy them with the help of Vader. While the Clones were officially banned in the Empire, the technology remained in secrecy (and later used by Imperial Remnant or others fare Episode VI), and the Cloning had nothing to do with the Stormtroopers. My opinion was that the Clone Troopers of that era had red armor, unlike the Imperial Stormtroopers, but were defeated by the Republic, thus the two never come across.

With Episode II this change: the Clones were for the Republic, made of Jango Fett on Kamino. No insanity effect. But the Spaarti technology also remained, but it was explained, that it was less effective and was used a bit later, as the Kaminoans were unreliable in terms of making anything for the Empire. And the new idea, established by Lucas was that, the Clones were used until some time, and Jango was simply the first to be cloned. Later on a few other subjects also served the very same purpose, but ordinary people were far more preferable, as enlisted. So the Imperial Army consisted of 70% of enlisted soldiers, while 30% remained to be clones, slowly replaced by newer troopers.

That was the story until some time.

The concept was changed again, when the Clone Wars animated series was made, which established a very close tie not only between Clones and the Jedi, but also between the Clone Troopers and the Audience, as people really liked the individualistic soldiers, which proved to be far more creative than droids more than once. But the concept of a good Cody couldn't fit into what we already knew about the massacre and other atrocities conducted by the Clones during Order 66. In the film it seemed they did that quite willingly, even though the Kaminoans changed the freedom of choice abilities in them. It was sort of a pothole with a morale issues, so they wanted to fix that, so that the Clones could still be deemed as good people, simply controlled by the Sith. A chip in their head was this solution.

Though I would say I still prefer the older concept, where we see the controversial nature of the Clones, showing best of the best human qualities, but still quite bad in their motives, and that their creation is a large step against the natural order of things in the Galaxy, thus relying on them is almost a sinful act both on the side of the Jedi, and the Senate and others.

The Rebels series further develop the idea, establishing, that most clones were removed from service, and the enlisted troopers step into ranks of the New Order. It looks interesting, because we see here that the Empire is far stronger than the Republic, which simply used clones, grown to believe in it ideals. Stormtroopers willingly serve the Empire and believe in it, because they want it.

In case of the First Order this works very differently: the troopers are taken from their families the way the Jedi did it in the Old Republic days, and brainwash with Imperial ideals. Thus the First Order in this regard is far weaker, than what Palpatine made for his Empire and its citizens.
 

George Lucas never intended the Stormtroopers to be Clones, though he changed the opinion a bit earlier, but the stormtroopers in Episode IV and later aren't clones 100% and most of them are enlisted men.

[The_CrY]

A very informative summary. I never knew about the Spaarti stuff. I suppose that's the problem when the EU gets too big. I also really like your conclusion as I have yet to find respect for the First Order.

[NumberWan]

@@The_CrY

Well, it started, when I came across an article about Mysteries of the Sith with some reference to Jedi Knight back in 1997-1998. It was some kind of PC magazine, and I really enjoyed reading a full page about the Clone Wars, and the rise of Palpatine some time later after that. It's interesting, how they made the connection of the first Dark Jedi (Clones) and the troubling time after Battle of Endor, when people such as Dark Jedi Jerec wanted power for himself.

 

In a User's Guide for Jedi Knight II one can see a curious reference (made long BEFORE Episode II):

 

I find it remarkable how things come to work decades after their appearance. The manual is available in the GOG version of Jedi Knight II.