The Ban hammer!

[Bubbles]

Another thread encouraging debate!

This is probably one of my biggest gripes with JKA. People get banned far too easily. In a way I feel that it is damaging to the JK community.

One of the most common reasons for bans is laming. Now, should people be getting a permanent ban for laming? I dont think so.

Its important to understand that JKA is a very unique game. I am struggling to think of a single game in which running up to someone and killing them could result in a ban. In almost every game it is a non issue.  I personally feel this rule has helped in the facilatation of the reduction of the JKA playerbase. For example see it from a new persons perspective. They join the game and naturally want to saber someone. They suddendly either get immobilised by admin powers that are probably a little too much fun to use. Then get told how to play by someone who is supposed to be a equal to them. Yet they have far more powers.  No one likes being told what to do while gaming so they rebel a little and as a result get banned.

Another popular reason for banning is 'trolling' This can take many forms some malicious some mainly just  messing about.  Again someone just  messing about gets banned for doing something relatively minor. I dont feel this encourages people to stick around and be part of the community.

I feel that the few active servers need to acknowledge the power they have. It's simply not the choice anymore that you can just join another server if you get banned. The choice of servers is extremely limited. Banning should be a last resort and not the first option.

Lastly, the range ban. This in my view is deeply damaging.  A range ban should be used as a last resort mainly to stop exploiters or racists or someone who is deeply ruining the gameplay on the server in a negative way and avoiding bans.

Now, I know the main argument is well it is your server you can do what you want. That is 100% true. But, I think bans should be a last resort and the length of the bans more appropriate to the manner of the offence.  As much as possible we should encourage people to stick around even if at times they can be annoying.

That's my 2cents on banning. Feel free to rip me to shreds.

 

Another lil side note. I feel like the amount of empty servers with just bots is at times damaging to the community as well. New players often do not know they are even playing with bots. Thanks to certain modders who thought it was a good idea to give bots a ping.  I have on quite a few occasions join a server just to see a new player who is playing with bots and trying to talk to them.  I know not much can be done about this but I do think the issue of empty servers  and dead servers is a bit damaging to the community as it makes it difficult for new players to join active servers. 

 

One last lil side note:

I think it would be could if more welcome messages just said "Press Y to talk"   It is a minor thing but more servers should do it.

[Circa]

This is one of my biggest peeves as well, that "laming" is even a thing. Every server and clan I had power in always made it a point to let people do whatever they wanted, as long as it didn't go too far and actually began to cause major problems. The big issue is that most servers treat JKA as a chat room, so standing still for hours chatting is the default mode for most players, despite the game having a spectator mode built exactly for people like that. Makes no sense.

Unfortunately a lot of big clan servers have had these strict rules for so many years now that they don't really understand what it looks like from an outside perspective, especially when some of them don't venture out to play other games. Or they joined these clans at a very young age and just grew up knowing it to be a rule for JKA and that everyone should abide by it.

In the past I would just tell people to avoid servers like that, but since those are now the only active servers these days, I can't really say that. It's definitely something that should change, but at this point, the people still hosting big servers probably aren't open to changing such a thing, because they are still successful and probably assume their strict rules are the reason for that. In some ways that could be true, some people require strict rules to enjoy their time, but most people just want to play.

This has made my consider having official JKHub servers for casuals to play on without risking banning and more focus on playing, but that's still a big can of worms I'm not sure I want to fully open again.

[Aldro Koon]

7 hours ago, Bubbles said:

For example see it from a new persons perspective. They join the game and naturally want to saber someone. They suddendly either get immobilised by admin powers that are probably a little too much fun to use.

 

6 hours ago, Circa said:

Unfortunately a lot of big clan servers have had these strict rules for so many years now that they don't really understand what it looks like from an outside perspective, especially when some of them don't venture out to play other games.

 

In regards to laming, you guys need to factor in the other side of it too.

I personally loathe the traditional laming rule myself purely due to how damn unrealistic it is. However, there is a reason for it's existence and I would argue that expecting everyone to FFA in an FFA server is equally unrealistic.

You argue that this is not good for new/outside players, but a new player getting beaten to a bloody pulp by more veteran players with no way of protecting themselves is the main reason why that laming rule became popular to begin with. JKA is a highly skill oriented game, and new players just don't stand a fucking chance. We don't have the traditional "saber down = don't kill" rule, but ours is rather: "stop attacking people who don't wish to fight". 

In other words, don't be a dick. You can fully play the game by just dueling, but if it is a full out FFA you want, stick to people who actually want to fight. There are people who enjoy jumping around, chatting, climbing, roleplaying, sparring a friend, holding mini events, recording something, riding npcs and doing all sorts of other weird shit. Our aim is to try and create an environment where all of this can co-exist without one dude coming in and pissing all over it.

 

It's very easy to cyber bully new and/or sensitive players, and while everyone needs to learn the importance of a thick skin (as this is unavoidable no matter how many rules you setup) -- We as a community will help to promote a healthy environment, as much as we can. Even if it is damn annoying.

I myself would give two shits about anyone killing me, but that is a luxury I can't expect of everyone as people are inherently different and unlike new players, I can actually fight back. As for bans, we practically only place them if there's a large outcry requesting it. I don't think we ever banned based on a single case, it's usual a serial rule breaker who breaks the "don't be a dick" guideline as tons of members jump into the topic and reinforce this.  It's a case of trusting the majority who play daily when it comes to judging on what makes for a healthy environment on the server. If you succeed in giving players a good experience, chances are that they will come back for more.

All in all, I just wanted to share our thoughts as one of the more large clans out there.

[Bubbles]

33 minutes ago, Aldro Koon said:

You argue that this is not good for new/outside players, but a new player getting beaten to a bloody pulp by more veteran players with no way of protecting themselves is the main reason why that laming rule became popular to begin with. JKA is a highly skill oriented game, and new players just don't stand a fucking chance.  

Im not going to argue for the laming rule to go away. It never will.

Although almost any other game you are thrown in with players and you learn from your failures. True, some games now have matchmaking that helps you get matched up against new players but I'd say the vast majority of games your thrown in at the deep end.  So, not sure this is a great reason for the laming rule.

I had a look at the origins of the word as I was around the time it became a thing in JK2. Funnily enough I apparently contributed to a wiki article about the laming rule on here about 8 years ago.

https://jkhub.org/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:Laming_Rule

I distinctively remember Shroomduck coming up with idea at least which has stuck with me. Although I didnt really interact with him until later.
 

Quote

 

"I never invented the word 'laming'. If I had of come up with a name for the act back when the LiCk server was in full swing, it would have been something cooler sounding like "Prunger" or "Tstastrami". I did try to get "Asshat" as a name, but to no avail! Heheh. The big difference between what I started, and what other clans emulated, is that I had a single philosophy: That the fun of one should not be at the expense of another. Of course, this ideal was perverted and distorted by the MANY admins who sought only to control others and pander to their own weak sense of self esteem."

"It certainly wasn't me by myself. [LiCk]Calvin and I formed a single rule "Saber up to attack", as a way of creating more freedom for players of JK2 on the LiCk server. What facinated us at the time (and this is like, the day JK2 came out!), was how social people were in this game as opposed to other games. Instead of the normal "shoot anything that moves" that one finds in most MP games, JK2 created a certain environment which promoted more chat and communication. We were really both stunned the first time we saw two people start to duel each other, and bow (crouch!) before starting. There was something magical about something as simple as that at the time... although most of us take it for granted now.

So, the rule was really created to help promote what was already evolving in the game. We were QUITE disappointed when we saw other servers doing the same thing, but using it as an excuse to weild their admin power around. This is likely one of the reasons people 'lame' so much today... they are sick of admins and servers telling them what to do, and understandably so!

That's why the whole thing I try to instill in our admins is a sense of respect towards ALL players as opposed to just enforcing the law. There's a big difference between the words of the rules and the spirit of the rules. The spirit is what will carry us forward and keep this game magical while it's still alive."

 

 

 

 

So I'd say @Aldro Koon Your ethos is more in line with what was meant to begin with then what it has turned into. i.e. That the fun of one should not be at the expense of another.

Its a tough one though. Because any other game 'owning' people is part of what makes the games fun.

 

 

[Circa]

@Aldro Koon all fair points. I should clarify not all servers are like what I or Bubbles described. I haven’t played on JoF in years so can’t really vouch for that but I have definitely been kicked or banned in the past on other serves for even just a mistaken saber hit on AFK people. It’s kind of ridiculous how some admins can be about it. Pretty sure one of my names is permabanned on KR for something like that.