Balance Discussion, January 2018

[eezstreet]

We did some internal testing. Here are some points worth mentioning:

• Credits should be set to 200 100 per kill. Bounties should be set at 225 50 per kill and require 3 kills to activate, not 2.
• Bounty credits get factored into assists.
• 10-25 credits are given every minute. Late joiners get these extra credits.
• /pay is a cheat command in non-RPG, non-COOP modes.
• Slugthrowers should have armor modifier set to 0.6 (down from 0.8).
• Damage which ignores shields, should not block the shield regen timer.
• Reduce cost of grenades even further
• Shields with high capacity should cost more than ones which regenerate faster. But not too much more.
• Thermal detonators should cost 50/100/200 100/150/200 each. This is a fair price considering that they cannot be cooked. That means with a Class A thermal detonator, you must kill at least two three people with it to make a profit.
• Stun grenades should cost 25 credits, not 50.
• Small bactas should cost 10 credits, not 15. Reduce price of all bactas by 25-33%
• Armor in general should cost less, affect speed less, and have more Effective Hit Points.
• Slugthrower ammo costs a little too much.
• Baktoid rockets cost too little.
• Dresellian Projectile Rifle ammo costs too little.
• EE-3 and Bryar weaponry costs too much.
• Change the default starter weapon to Trandoshan Suppressor Pistol again.
• Rocket launchers, concussion rifles, and repeaters cost too little.
• T-21 has invalid ammo.
• Flares cost 15 -> 5
• Explosive slugthrower rounds should set damage to 30.
• Some rare items (carbonite rifle, flamethrower, cryoban grenades, class A thermal detonators, etc) are so rare that they almost never appear. Should bump their odds up or maybe expand the number of items in the shop at once.
• Laser Projector appears in the shop but it does not work properly.
• Picking up a weapon should give you a clip or two of that weapon's ammo. Or credits maybe. Picking up a weapon gives whatever ammo that person was using when they died. If the person picking up the weapon does not have a weapon which uses that ammo, they receive credits instead.
• E-11 Carbine should cost around 700-800, around the same as the LT-60s, but have less damage.
• Starting pistol should sell back for full amount, not 1 credit.
• Shaped charges (i forget the name) should cost around 50 25 credits, not 350 (!!)
• Trip mines should cost around 25-50 credits. (down from hundreds that they costed before)
• ELG-3A has an invalid damage type for its first firing mode.
• FWG-5 has an invalid firing mode.
• Reduce bleed duration to 5 seconds (down from 10).
• Increase sideways friction to reduce the ability to dodge shots as easily.
• Explosive Slugthrower rounds removed.
• Code key detonators should spawn with the same frequency as Class E thermals.
• Add console command to list weapons that don't spawn in a treasure class (so we aren't missing any weapons that should spawn)
• Most rare items are not picked frequently enough. Partially because bactas take up spots in all tiers of treasure class. We should add more items to the vendor.

New ideas for consumables:

• First Aid Kit. Heals for 25 and stops fire, poison, and bleed damage. Cost, 50 25 credits.
• Small Shield Booster. Instantly regenerate 25 shield points (even above maximum). Cost, 15 10 credits.
• Large Shield Booster. Instantly regenerate 50 shield points (even above maximum). Cost, 30 15 credits.

New ideas for shields:

• Particle shields. They can block slugthrowers but they only block 50% of incoming damage (unless they are fully charged. In which case, they function like a normal shield)

New ideas for ammo types:

• Poison gas canisters, can be used on LS-180 and AA-35 alt fire mode
• Incendiary canisters, can be used on LS-180 and AA-35 alt fire mode.
• Plasma canisters, can be used on LS-180 and AA-35 alt fire mode. Does more damage than Frag and Incendiary canisters, and leaves a burning patch, but the burn doesn't last as long.
• Carbonite Tank, can be used on CR-25.
• Overheated Tank, can be used on CR-25. Adds +5 damage per second.
• Sticky Fuel Tank, can be used on CR-25. Extends flame duration by 10 seconds.
• BlasTech Ion packs, can be used on any BlasTech weapon (EE3, DC-15a, E-11, ...). Converts the weapon to use ion damage, which punches hard against shields.
• Overcharged blaster packs. Adds +5 damage to any blaster weapon.
• Armor Piercing slugthrower rounds. Changes damage type to "MOD_SLUGTHROWER_AP", which has a 1.0 modifier against armor instead of 0.6.
• Incendiary slugthrower rounds. Adds 10 second flame debuff.
• Poisoned quarrels. Adds 5 second poison debuff.
• Plinking slugthrower ammunition. Removes the bleed debuff and adds +1 bounce.
• Flechette slugthrower ammunition. Set bleed debuff duration to 10 seconds. (Golan Arms FC-1 and FC-2 spawns with this ammunition by default)
• Compact BlasTech Blaster Pack. Adds +20 rounds to magazine.

 

Justification for the above:

• Slugthrowers are extremely strong. Once you get a kill, you can have an automatic weapon which not only negates shields but can completely block them from working due to bleed mechanics. But once you're using a slugthrower, their ammo costs so much that you are forced into a rut. There's just no good alternative for a low-mid tier weapon, since most array guns and blasters are in the 1000-2000 range.
• Credit count at 200 is nice, clean and even. Plus, most of the grenades still cost a bit too much considering their relative power. We should balance consumables around how many you'll use in a life. At least in Versus.
• Starting pistol cannot be duped for infinite credits anymore, so it should sell back at the full advertised price.
• With shields, capacity is king. If you have a 100 shield, you start with twice as much HP (so long as the enemy is not using slugthrowers). Even if it's a slow recharge rate, you die pretty quickly.
• Stun grenades aren't too useful, since they can't be cooked. They should have a price reduction.

Everything else should hopefully be self-explanatory.

 

To be clear, these are changes being suggested for 1.3.1, the patch to 1.3.0. Not for 1.3.0. We're going to release that as soon as we determine the cause of a server crash that's been going on.

[Ramikad]

I know it's more a balance thread than a bug report one, but since you mentioned a couple of them I'd have another one: the Satchel Charge doesn't work properly, due to it being consumable now. The only solution I can think of is to make it a proper weapon, either specific for the Satchel Charge, or under the more versatile and generic name of "Remote Activator", which can be loaded with different types of "ammo" (satchel charge, trip mine, detonation pack, 7-PrG proton grenade, in theory it could be extended to thermal detonators as well, since they're not rarely seen attached and detonated remotely).

[Futuza]

Reminder to self and Silverfang:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IR-5_blaster_pistol

Add to be a blaster to compete with the carbine_lt-60 and other slugthrowers.  Should have similar fire rate and accuracy.  Cost 675-760 credits.

 

 

Also need a long consumable buff that lasts something like 60-90 seconds and prevent bleed when active.

[Silverfang]

We did some internal testing. Here are some points worth mentioning:

• Credits should be set to 200 per kill. Bounties should be set at 225 and require 3 kills to activate, not 2.
• Shields with high capacity should cost more than ones which regenerate faster. But not too much more.
• Slugthrower ammo costs a little too much.
• Baktoid rockets cost too little.
• Dresellian Projectile Rifle ammo costs too little.
• Rocket launchers, concussion rifles, and repeaters cost too little.
• T-21 has invalid ammo.
• Explosive slugthrower rounds should set damage to 30.
• Some rare items (carbonite rifle, flamethrower, cryoban grenades, class A thermal detonators, etc) are so rare that they almost never appear. Should bump their odds up or maybe expand the number of items in the shop at once.
• Laser Projector appears in the shop but it does not work properly.
• Picking up a weapon should give you a clip or two of that weapon's ammo. Or credits maybe.
• Shaped charges (i forget the name) should cost around 50 credits, not 350 (!!)

New ideas for consumables:

• First Aid Kit. Heals for 25 and stops fire, poison, and bleed damage. Cost, 50 credits.
• Small Shield Booster. Instantly regenerate 25 shield points (even above maximum). Cost, 15 credits.
• Large Shield Booster. Instantly regenerate 50 shield points (even above maximum). Cost, 30 credits.

 

These all sound like good changes, let's implement them. I would personally like to see the laser projector work as it was originally intended. I think giving ammo from picking up weapons is an excellent idea and one we had bounced around a while back (in fact I think at one point they did). as I mention later in this post we should make healing items that heal over time instead of instantly as well as instant ones.

 

 

• Slugthrowers should have armor modifier set to 0.6 (down from 0.8).
• Damage which ignores shields, should not block the shield regen timer. 

 

Let's try fixing the armor bug first so that it properly reduces damage before we nerf slugthrowers again. I personally feel the LT-60 series is in a good spot right now.

 

 

 

• Thermal detonators should cost 50/100/200 each. This is a fair price considering that they cannot be cooked. That means with a Class A thermal detonator, you must kill at least two people with it to make a profit.
• Stun grenades should cost 25 credits, not 50.
• Small bactas should cost 10 credits, not 15.

 

Class A thermal detonators costing only 200 might still be a bod idea, even if they rarely show up in the shop a good player who has stocked up a lot of credits could buy half a dozen of these and spam them for lulz... not really intended gameplay. We could probably increase the amount that bactas healed if they actually healed over time instead of reducing the cost.

 

 

 

• Armor in general should cost less, affect speed less, and have more Effective Hit Points.

 

I think we should simply make the stacking slow non-existent or reduce the amount that it stacks by a lot.

 

 

 

• EE-3 and Bryar weaponry costs too much.

 

EE-3 is a fairly high end weapon that was meant to replace the E-11 series by lore, we need to make it feel more different from the E-11 series though to justify the higher price... right now it sounds and performs about the same. As for the Bryars that's probably fine to reduce their cost.

 

 

 

• Flares cost 15 -> 5

Probably fine, but I've removed the E-11 stun carbine from the general vendor.

 

 

 

• E-11 Carbine should cost around 700-800, around the same as the LT-60s, but have less damage.

 

I want to implement a different weapon to fill this role instead of changing a different one so drastically.

 

 

 

• Starting pistol should sell back for full amount, not 1 credit.

 

I have some concerns with this, but I think I'm okay with this change.

[Futuza]

Let's try fixing the armor bug first so that it properly reduces damage before we nerf slugthrowers again. I personally feel the LT-60 series is in a good spot right now.

I've nerfed it already, we can easily move it back to .8 if it doesn't work, but yes armor bug needs to be fixed.

 

 

Class A thermal detonators costing only 200 might still be a bod idea, even if they rarely show up in the shop a good player who has stocked up a lot of credits could buy half a dozen of these and spam them for lulz...

I've changed it, we should just see how it goes and see if is a problem in the next play test.

 

 

EE-3 is a fairly high end weapon that was meant to replace the E-11 series by lore, we need to make it feel more different from the E-11 series though to justify the higher price... right now it sounds and performs about the same. As for the Bryars that's probably fine to reduce their cost.

I'm thinking much more accurate and less kick with barely higher damage?  Bryar's cost has been reduced a bit.  Might need more.

 

 

Probably fine, but I've removed the E-11 stun carbine from the general vendor.

 

Is this pushed to develop?

 

 

I want to implement a different weapon to fill this role instead of changing a different one so drastically.

Yes.  IR-5 should work nicely though I'm thinking label it more of a carbine than a "pistol".

[Silverfang]

I'm okay with 0.6 damage from slugthrowers until the armor bug is fixed, but it really needs to be fixed, inconsistent damage like that is nasty stuff when it comes to trying to balance things!

 

You may or may not see the issue I brought up with Class A detonators, I'm just using my knowledge of the game to tell you that that's a pretty plausible scenario. Class As are pretty FPS intensive for most people as it stands as well.

 

I think you're right with the small tuning on the EE-3, it needs sounds distinct from the E-11 sounds too.

 

I think I pushed the vendor change to develop, but I will double check.

 

Some of the SMGs (none of which are implemented yet) are a little bit between a pistol and a carbine, I would also argue that the DH-17 isn't quite a pistol but not quite a carbine as well.

[eezstreet]

If a grenade requires at least 1 kill to break even, that's a pretty big risk. We can of course, gather information about weapon kills and perform some data analysis.

 

I've seen the pics of the bugged hitboxes. I'm wondering if maybe it's using mesh based collision and botching it somehow?

[Silverfang]

I'm going to for sure reduce the LT-60's bleed time, I'm not sure why it's 10 seconds on a rapid fire weapon, it gives it a rather strange edge in medium-long range combat.

[eezstreet]

After some further discussion with the others, I've made edits to the OP.