Let's Talk "Canon"

[Seven]

And here we bear witness to a new form of discrimination.

I agree with you Cerez, but we should avoid using discrimination in this context.

[Seven]

I personally like TFA, and it's going to forever be a part of the Star Wars storyline to me, but not everyone has to accept it as the true storyline. Now, that doesn't mean that just because someone doesn't feel connected, they automatically hate the movie. Just like anything else in the world, it is not that black and white.

 

We are a community here, making mods for our own enjoyment. I've seen so many groups implode from differing opinions and a lack of respect for them, I don't want to see that happen here. There doesn't need to be a fight out of this. Fighting leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to nightmares. Nightmares lead to

[Cerez]

I agree with you Cerez, but we should avoid using discrimination in this context.

To be clear, I'm not having a go at @@Ping, and not saying that he would do that (sorry @@Ping). I am just illustrating the problems we will have to face as a community if we continue along this path and allow different fictional timelines in Star Wars to segregate us from one another.

 

The real problem with this or that "canon", and having multiple timelines is exactly this. In order to see past this and find a compromise, we need to learn to appreciate that we have a Star Wars history that extends far beyond any "canon". That there is no "official" story anymore. That Lucas' universe is just as valid as the new Disney universe. And the EU is worth no less than the Disney content. They are different Star Wars worlds overlapping.

 

Which we choose to use per occasion is up to us as fans, but there is no "official" storyline here anymore.

 

Otherwise, if we keep stressing this or that is the "official," "canon" version, we really stand a good chance of discriminating one another in this (illustrated) fashion, and causing serious social problems within our community. All because of different fictional timelines.

 

I would rather we started changing our outlook way before things took an ugly turn. We are all Star Wars fans here, and we need to respect all of Star Wars, and everyone's preferences.

[eezstreet]

You've still not addressed the fact that Lucasfilm is the author and that Star Wars was developed by a group of people. The fact that Lucas is no longer involved would be more relevant if Lucas was the sole author of every single thing in every single Star Wars movie, and did every single acting performance by himself. (Could you imagine him in the Slave Leia outfit? Ewww.) He didn't write every single thing (the famous "I know" line from Han Solo was ad-libbed by Harrison Ford), he didn't design the costumes or creatures (he may have given some specification on how they're supposed to look, even if it's as vague as "it looks like my dog" as he did with Chewbacca, but ultimately they were designed by someone else), and you seem to be ignoring this. Lucasfilm is still Lucasfilm.

 

But hey, you say that apparently we the fans decide what the Canon is (ignoring Ping's point yet again), so what do I know? I just find it amusing that there is somehow a sea of discontent with Episode 7, when really it's a vocal minority complaining about one movie ruining the entire franchise. Let's talk about how Episode 1 and Episode 2 ruined it more, and get back at it.

[Cerez]

The fact is that, as @@Ping has rightly pointed out, if there is a Story Group at Lucasfilm that is currently in charge of directing the Star Wars stories, then effectively we have two authors on our hands: the original author, Lucas, and the new team at Disney. It's a loose definition of authorship in both cases, but with Lucas it was known to be one individual, who more or less took direct responsibility for the content produced, while in Disney's case this is a mystery team of possibly ever-changing individuals -- so it's even more loose. There is not much moral responsibility in being a nameless staff member working on the Star Wars stories as a job for a few years -- not nearly as much as being proclaimed as the author of a story world and the creator of a franchise.

 

Also, @@eezstreet, I never said that the fans decide what is "canon". I said the fans choose what will become, and be remembered as Star Wars history. There's a big difference. The word "canon", as used by Disney, means "content approved by us" or "our storyline". Star Wars history, on the other hand, is our entire Star Wars lore, encompassing everything that we find valuable in Star Wars. Things that stand the test of time.

 

Our official Star Wars history is this, not Disney's "canon". That's what I'm trying to stress here. The use of the word "canon" is very misleading here, and that's what I'm trying to raise awareness to. It's a marketing strategy used by Disney that can be very damaging to our community if we don't think it through, and change our perspective.

[Omicron]

After reading this thread it sounds like you're only trying to justify in some form or another that things such as Kotor are "true", when point of fact they "aren't". Why is it so hard to grasp that they aren't part of the main series of events and are just stories (ie Legends)? There's nothing wrong with a story within a story.

[hleV]

The multiverse thing is ridiculous and not backed up by anything. Why do people insist on believing whatever their wishful thinking produces?

 

Anyway, disney owns SW and if they officially disregard EU and whatnot, you cannot just disagree solely because you don't like it. EU and whatnot are now stories that didn't actually happen in SW and don't belong in its timeline. They're fake stories so to say.

You don't have to like that (I still really hate how TCW and Rebels are canon), but you can't escape from truth.

[Cerez]

@@eezstreet, to more directly answer your call, I am talking about authorship as it relates to the stories and the story-world. Lucas was known to have overseen the development of Star Wars stories. He didn't write them. He oversaw their progress and developments. He "puppeteered" the creation, and continued development of the world, so to speak.

 

And... it's a "vocal minority" now. We've only seen the first movie yet... >.<'

[Cerez]

After reading this thread it sounds like you're only trying to justify in some form or another that things such as Kotor are "true", when point of fact they "aren't".

What makes them not true? That's my question to you. They are loved by hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Star Wars fans around the world. So what makes them less "true" than the latest Disney blockbuster? That Disney didn't put a "canon" stamp on them?

 

To be clear, I'm not trying to make KOTOR, or any other Star Wars work "canon" -- because "canon" is Disney content, as I've stated over a hundred times by now! What I'm trying to make you see is that to recognise the Disney "canon" as the the one true, and only Star Wars timeline means you are discriminating a big portion of the fanbase, people who love the old stories, and consider those Star Wars timelines and stories just as, if not more valuable than Disney's timeline.

[Ping]

And this is the crux of the matter that I have highlighted here and elsewhere multiple times: You think that just because something is fictionally "less true" it thereby is automatically "less good" or "less valid" or has less of a right to exist (otherwise you wouldn't raise the quesiton in your previous post). You can do whatever you like with the timeline and write fanfictions all day long that are a thousand times better than TFA, but that doesn't make them any less fanfictions. There is no discrimination here AT ALL if anyone claims x is not canon, just as there is no discrimination at all if anyone claims x was not made by Lucasfilm (i.e. that x is fanfiction) or that x is not a SW movie. It is time to let go of the unjustified connection between canonicity and value.

[Omicron]

What makes them not true? That's my question to you.

Because Disney says they aren't.

 

They are loved by hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Star Wars fans around the world.

Somewhat irrelevant. People's experience with the works has nothing to do if something actually happened.

 

So what makes them less "true" than the latest Disney blockbuster? That Disney didn't put a "canon" stamp on them?

Hit the nail on the head.

 

[Cerez]

@@Ping, except that when it comes to talking about Star Wars history, you will keep insisting to me that the Disney timeline is the official Star Wars timeline, everything else is "alternative". Whereas I know a different official timeline that existed not too long ago -- and for me still exists as the main, official storyline in Star Wars.

 

You guys are driving a very one-sided argument.

[Ping]

You missed my point about the question whether something is official or alternative having nothing to do with value at all.

[Cerez]

Because Disney says they aren't.

 

Somewhat irrelevant. People's experience with the works has nothing to do if something actually happened.

 

Hit the nail on the head.

No comment.

 

You missed my point about the question whether something is official or alternative having nothing to do with value at all.

Let me guess. It has to do with that Lucasfilm and Disney proclaim to be official, right? Hurray for independent, free-thinking minds.

 

[Cerez]

@@eezstreet, I think we can lock this now. Not gonna get any more intelligent talk coming out of here.

[eezstreet]

[red]Thread locked[/red]

 

As you wish.