SP: How can I encourage close combat in saber duels?

[Dusty]

So, I was wondering if I could discuss methods to make close-combat more rewarding in SP saber duels. I'm talking mostly codeless edits or simple/small code edits.

 

Basically, I want to make hit and run sabering a bit less rewarding and make close-combat more rewarding. Here's what I've thought about:

1. Decreasing saber movement speed while attacking slightly

- Forces you to get into range with saber attacks earlier

- Makes it harder to pop in and out of close range while swinging

- This is more realistic? Wouldn't you slow-down slightly IRL if you were putting a lot of power into a swing?

 

2. Removing saber throw

- NPCs are cheap with it, you can be cheap with it

- NPCs drop the saber occasionally leaving them defenseless

- NPCs/you have to use force powers for ranged attacks instead (Reborn master and Desann force lightning moar?)

- Only downside is you have to use guns against turrets and stuff

 

3. Decreasing max chain for all styles

- Well this wouldn't make much of a difference

- It'd just give you less control over the saber

- Maybe decrease spamming a bit though

 

4. Increasing saber damage

- Doesn't really make much difference either way, or does it?

- Makes using your saber more purposeful as opposed to force powers etc.

 

5. Decreasing frequency of saber locks

- Makes it less risky to be blocked vs. bosses and stuff

- Takes away fun/makes saber contact less important (which I don't want)?

 

6. Make blocking more reliable and purposeful

- I can speed up blocking making it faster and better

- Make countering more important; where you block a weak swing then do an auto-aimed attack that rips through defenses

- ^This is a double-edged sword:

Over-doing it can slow down gameplay and make it annoying when you are always staggered by blocks or can always stagger NPCs and encourage even more hit-and-run gameplay

 

 

Anyone have any other ideas? Or comments/suggestions on my existing ideas?

[Circa]

I like all of these ideas.

 

As far as realistic lightsabers, turning on g_sabermorerealistic in SP makes that happen. It's crazy how much more distance you keep from an NPC when that's on because the slightest touch can kill you.

[Dusty]

^Huh. Yeah if I used g_sabermorerealistic I wouldn't take it past 1. I'd probably just scale damage up in the .sab files though. Maybe 25% about.

[Circa]

I thought it was just a toggle anyway? 0 or 1, on and off. I can't imagine it being more realistic than 1 is.

[eezstreet]

Make sabers shorter. That would encourage close combat, wouldn't it?

[Dusty]

Make sabers shorter. That would encourage close combat, wouldn't it?

 

Lies. Dey already short enough.

 

 

I thought it was just a toggle anyway? 0 or 1, on and off. I can't imagine it being more realistic than 1 is.

 

Oh hoho just try turning it up to 2 or 3. Each level racks up the damage even more.

[Circa]

Lies. Dey already short enough.

 

 

 

 

Oh hoho just try turning it up to 2 or 3. Each level racks up the damage even more.

Seriously? On 1 if yo just touch an idle saber you die pretty much. Crazy! I'll have to try that.

[Dusty]

Seriously? On 1 if yo just touch an idle saber you die pretty much. Crazy! I'll have to try that.

 

On level 1 unless you have on some mods sabers shouldn't do any idle damage. They will damage during blocks or transitions however. On level 2 the damage and dismemberment is ramped up further I believe. On level 3 the damage is ridiculous and idle sabers are changed to do damage (and since idle sabers aren't "blocked", this leads to very cheap fighting).

[Futuza]

Dunno...if you really want to encourage close combat you'd really have to redo the saber system and make it something more akin to JKG's.  That forces you to get close.

[katanamaru]

1. Decreasing saber movement speed while attacking slightly

- Forces you to get into range with saber attacks earlier

- Makes it harder to pop in and out of close range while swinging

- This is more realistic? Wouldn't you slow-down slightly IRL if you were putting a lot of power into a swing?

 

2. Removing saber throw

- NPCs are cheap with it, you can be cheap with it

- NPCs drop the saber occasionally leaving them defenseless

- NPCs/you have to use force powers for ranged attacks instead (Reborn master and Desann force lightning moar?)

- Only downside is you have to use guns against turrets and stuff

 

3. Decreasing max chain for all styles

- Well this wouldn't make much of a difference

- It'd just give you less control over the saber

- Maybe decrease spamming a bit though

 

4. Increasing saber damage

- Doesn't really make much difference either way, or does it?

- Makes using your saber more purposeful as opposed to force powers etc.

 

5. Decreasing frequency of saber locks

- Makes it less risky to be blocked vs. bosses and stuff

- Takes away fun/makes saber contact less important (which I don't want)?

 

6. Make blocking more reliable and purposeful

- I can speed up blocking making it faster and better

- Make countering more important; where you block a weak swing then do an auto-aimed attack that rips through defenses

- ^This is a double-edged sword:

Over-doing it can slow down gameplay and make it annoying when you are always staggered by blocks or can always stagger NPCs and encourage even more hit-and-run gameplay

 

 

Anyone have any other ideas? Or comments/suggestions on my existing ideas?

 

1. I turned my movement speed down a little with g_speed 200 or g_move 200 (I can't remember exactly right now since I have it bound to a button.) This only affects the pc and not the npcs so they can catch up and makes entering combat and fighting in distance a tighter fight. Npc's speed can be adjusted in their .npc file. The nice thing is that the command doesn't affect the roll speed so that becomes a better dodge mechanic.

 

2. Try and see if you like it without throw.

 

3. Decreasing attack chain/combos would mean less attacks and more chance to get out. Now reducing the red's number of swings isn't a bad idea because of how powerful it is.

 

4. A saber that is too powerful leads to tense, fast fights. I tweaked the old OJP Basic mod to use the saber damage values and have mixed views.

 

5. I like this. Saber locks are annoying. I normally just push out of them.

 

6. I use the command alwaysBlock 1 in my custom .sab files. It makes blocking more likely so I feel like I can depend on it.

 

I did want to ask how you both sped up blocking and got a counter move in your mod?

[Dusty]

1. I turned my movement speed down a little with g_speed 200 or g_move 200 (I can't remember exactly right now since I have it bound to a button.) This only affects the pc and not the npcs so they can catch up and makes entering combat and fighting in distance a tighter fight. Npc's speed can be adjusted in their .npc file. The nice thing is that the command doesn't affect the roll speed so that becomes a better dodge mechanic.

 

2. Try and see if you like it without throw.

 

3. Decreasing attack chain/combos would mean less attacks and more chance to get out. Now reducing the red's number of swings isn't a bad idea because of how powerful it is.

 

4. A saber that is too powerful leads to tense, fast fights. I tweaked the old OJP Basic mod to use the saber damage values and have mixed views.

 

5. I like this. Saber locks are annoying. I normally just push out of them.

 

6. I use the command alwaysBlock 1 in my custom .sab files. It makes blocking more likely so I feel like I can depend on it.

 

I did want to ask how you both sped up blocking and got a counter move in your mod?

 

1. Yeah that might be better. G_sabermovespeed works by reducing your movement speed only when you're swinging, which is the difference between that and g_speed.

 

3. What do you mean "more chance to get out"? Like, you wouldn't want to stay in range as much because you can't hack away for as long at a time? I could see that. Also, as far as .sab files go, I can't limit the max chain of a specific style per se. It'd have to be for all styles. Or else I need code edits. Red already has a max chain of 3 though so I don't think it's too bad.

 

4. Well a 125% saber damage isn't too bad. G_sabermorerealistic 1 makes it closer to around 175% or 200% I'd say. Also, a 25 % boost means I can make vibrosword enemies do 100% damage so it still feels like a good amount but sabers still do more.

 

5. Yeah ideally I'd change saber locks to be more like JK2, where you don't have super breaks (where if you win/lose it's a 1-hit KO). I'd rather that be something you can only do if the saber lock ends very quickly or you have a higher/lower saber offense level than the opponent.

 

In JK2 saber locks were less annoying because they only led to staggers or disarms I think.

 

6. The problem with alwaysBlock is it makes it so you can block mid-swing and when you're knocked over. The main problem with this is the game makes no differentiation between blocks during those times and when you're actually guarding.

 

It gets extremely annoying when hitting the saber of a downed enemy causes you to be staggered, or else I would use it.

 

 

The way I sped things up was just changing animation speeds in the animations.cfg:

- BOTH_K# anims are parry anims (where you knockaway/stagger an attacker, which is a saber defense 3 thing). The number says which style. 1 is all single saber styles (they all use the same anims), 6 and 7 are duals and staff.

 

- BOTH_R# anims are the retract/recovery animation you have to do after a block of any kind. 1 is fast style. 2 is medium. 3 is strong. 4 is tavion? 5 is desann? 6 is duals, 7 is staff.

 

- BOTH_V# anims are stagger anims when you attack and are parried. 1 is all single-saber styles and 6 and 7 are staff and duals.

 

- BOTH_D# anims are the "you've been blocked" anims where your swing bounces off IIRC.

[katanamaru]

3. What do you mean "more chance to get out"? Like, you wouldn't want to stay in range as much because you can't hack away for as long at a time? I could see that. Also, as far as .sab files go, I can't limit the max chain of a specific style per se. It'd have to be for all styles. Or else I need code edits. Red already has a max chain of 3 though so I don't think it's too bad.

 

Exactly like in your first sentence. If the player can only make 2 attacks they will plan on a strategy that is only for 2 attacks. A higher number of swings allows the player to get in there and go for more attacks. Thus staying in the krieg (war.)

 

4. Well a 125% saber damage isn't too bad. G_sabermorerealistic 1 makes it closer to around 175% or 200% I'd say. Also, a 25 % boost means I can make vibrosword enemies do 100% damage so it still feels like a good amount but sabers still do more.

 

I like the default damage. I mainly use the OJP mod with increased damage because it gives me much more dismemberment.

 

5. Yeah ideally I'd change saber locks to be more like JK2, where you don't have super breaks (where if you win/lose it's a 1-hit KO). I'd rather that be something you can only do if the saber lock ends very quickly or you have a higher/lower saber offense level than the opponent.

 

In JK2 saber locks were less annoying because they only led to staggers or disarms I think.

 

I agree completly here.

 

6. The problem with alwaysBlock is it makes it so you can block mid-swing and when you're knocked over. The main problem with this is the game makes no differentiation between blocks during those times and when you're actually guarding.

 

It gets extremely annoying when hitting the saber of a downed enemy causes you to be staggered, or else I would use it.

 

And that is the reason I like it so much! A sword is always capeable of blocking. It is even better at doing so if it is moving. At my fencing sometimes people do get knocked down or tripped and can still use their sword to attack, defend, or flail about graciously to avoid getting hit.

 

 

The way I sped things up was just changing animation speeds in the animations.cfg:

- BOTH_K# anims are parry anims (where you knockaway/stagger an attacker, which is a saber defense 3 thing). The number says which style. 1 is all single saber styles (they all use the same anims), 6 and 7 are duals and staff.

 

- BOTH_R# anims are the retract/recovery animation you have to do after a block of any kind. 1 is fast style. 2 is medium. 3 is strong. 4 is tavion? 5 is desann? 6 is duals, 7 is staff.

 

- BOTH_V# anims are stagger anims when you attack and are parried. 1 is all single-saber styles and 6 and 7 are staff and duals.

 

- BOTH_D# anims are the "you've been blocked" anims where your swing bounces off IIRC.

 

I figured it was by speeding up the animations. How did you do the standing counter though?

 

[Dusty]

 

6. The problem with alwaysBlock is it makes it so you can block mid-swing and when you're knocked over. The main problem with this is the game makes no differentiation between blocks during those times and when you're actually guarding.

 

It gets extremely annoying when hitting the saber of a downed enemy causes you to be staggered, or else I would use it.

 

And that is the reason I like it so much! A sword is always capeable of blocking. It is even better at doing so if it is moving. At my fencing sometimes people do get knocked down or tripped and can still use their sword to attack, defend, or flail about graciously to avoid getting hit.

 

Oh no, you see, I even agree with that. It's just annoying I can be parried for touching their saber at any time. Like they should only be able to parry me when they're actually in defensive stance/blocking.

 

I should be able to be blocked but not parried just by hitting their saber mid-swing or on the ground. It's a double-edged sword lol.

 

 

 

The way I sped things up was just changing animation speeds in the animations.cfg:

- BOTH_K# anims are parry anims (where you knockaway/stagger an attacker, which is a saber defense 3 thing). The number says which style. 1 is all single saber styles (they all use the same anims), 6 and 7 are duals and staff.

 

- BOTH_R# anims are the retract/recovery animation you have to do after a block of any kind. 1 is fast style. 2 is medium. 3 is strong. 4 is tavion? 5 is desann? 6 is duals, 7 is staff.

 

- BOTH_V# anims are stagger anims when you attack and are parried. 1 is all single-saber styles and 6 and 7 are staff and duals.

 

- BOTH_D# anims are the "you've been blocked" anims where your swing bounces off IIRC.

 

I figured it was by speeding up the animations. How did you do the standing counter though?

 

What standing counter? You mean the manual block?

 

If so, that was just a ghetto script I made that turned off autoblocking and turned on manual blocking for a second, and then would hit "+block", then undo everything all in like 1.5 seconds. Problem with it was the blocking anim is so slow the way it's coded. I need to edit the game code if I want to make it more useful. 

[Dusty]

So I'm trying to think of simple (keyword: SIMPLE, at least in ideology as to what it does to sabering, if not in coding) alterations I could make to the saber system, to improve sabering, without changing the overall feel too much at all.

 

The saber locks thing I'm looking into. Basically something like this:

• Saber locks like JK2
• Just a few alterations:

- Saber offense 3 is required for super breaks (where you/ the NPC gets to do a 1-hit KO move)

- If the saber lock is ended in the first 3 seconds, the winner gets a 40% chance to do a super-break plus 30% for each level lower the loser's saber offense is

- If it ends later then it's just a parry or disarm

 

And besides that, I'm trying to think. Maybe running would have a penalty to blocking or something? Like you can't do parries and crud while running?

[katanamaru]

I agree with making the locks more like JO. I really dislike the one-hit ko in JA. If you want to keep it though I'd say reduce it even further down 10-15% range sounds okay. If the damage is upped then a lost saber is very close to a one-hit ko anyway. If the player loses their saber they will have to think fast to avoid a follow up attack or attacks from other opponents.

 

I toyed with that idea of running forward is less likely to parry while running back is more likely to parry back in JK and MotS. It sounds ok, and with testing may or may not work out. The downside is that the player will be discouraged to move into a fight and the AI will not be smart enough to stop moving forward towards the player.

 

In a real sword fight moving forward does not decrease your ability to parry. In fact if I use the provoker, taker, hitter concept effectively while fighting I can set a parry before the other person even swings because I know where they will swing before they do.

[Dusty]

^Well, 3 seconds is a very short time. The idea there is to reward you if you manage to end the saber lock that fast, or punish you if you can't manage to hang on that long at least. Like when you have Offense 2 vs a reborn with Offense 3, it's very difficult to win, but you should have to try and last a few seconds at least.

 

The idea about running is basically again, to make slower movement be more rewarding. I feel running should take something away from your defense, whether running backwards or forwards.

[katanamaru]

I agree with your running idea IRL. But in the game I may not. Now if we could make it possible to roll while walking then there might be some potential there. Voiding/dodging a hit is a gaurantee way of staying safe. Flipside is that the player is also out of range. Rolling gives the player a way to dodge quickly which would give them more options. With g_speed anything less than the default 250 rolling is faster than running.

 

I'd consider that most players play with running as the default speed. The saber users do so the player probably does too. How will the audience feel if after all these years they are now made to play at the walking speed? That would honestly put me a little off the mod. I know that I could just up the g_speed console command and change an animation around and make walk the same as run. Unless the parry bonus was velocity based that is.

[Dusty]

I mean, running makes it harder to perfect block, which is necessary at higher difficulties that decrease your autoblock radius, but that's about the only disadvantage atm.

 

I would probably make running speed about 230. Most NPCs only run at 200 speed so the player still has a 1-up on them.

 

Anyway, I've been drumming up ideas about code edits that are non-saberlock related, and here they are:

- Saber Offense:

• Each level corresponds roughly to saber defense (but not exactly)
• Saber offense sets your base power level sort of, and then it is further modified by your saber stance (atm it's only dependent on saber style, offense doesn't do hardly anything)
• Styles would be split into 3 categories; power levels 1-3; fast would be 1; strong 3; medium 2; etc.
• power level 1 is like saber offense - 1; power level 2 is + 0; power level 3 is + 1
• each level also decreases your stagger recovery time slightly when you're parried; and this carries over regardless of style, so offense 3

- Saber defense:

• parries lower power swings; blocks same-level swings; breaks from repeated assault by higher power swings
• parries can only be done by saber defense 3 with small exceptions (not sure what though yet)
• blocking higher level swings knocks the stagger counter up by how many power levels higher until your guard is broken 
• stagger counter is always 2 + your level of saber defense
• parrybonus increases your stagger counter, and lets you parry sometimes at saber defense level below 3?
• breakparrybonus increases your damage done when you have a higher power level than the opponents guard, it doesn't add to your base power, but if you strain the opponents guard you can overload it faster (only problem with this is unless you're using strong it's irrelevant vs. same level opponents???)

 

Now where do parry and break parry bonuses come in you ask? I have a couple ideas  , but I'll edit them in this post in a bit, I have to run for now.

[katanamaru]

I follow your running now and like it.

I'll still personally use speed 200, but that's just what I like now.

 

I'd have to play with your new system to get a feel for it. It sounds good though. Looks like you want to focus on the combo aspect.

[Dusty]

^I just feel 200 would seem a bit slow just for general moving around and running in a level from Point A to B.

 

The main reason for the saber offense and defense tweaks, is that in JA, saber offense is the most useless power. In JK2 it had the purpose at least of granting you saber styles, but in JA all it does is affect saber locks really as far as I can tell (even looking in the code). At saber offense 0 you don't feel much less skilled than offense 3 frankly. Conversely, this makes saber defense less important, as you can block saber offense 3 with saber defense 1, albeit with a random disarm every once in a while. 

 

Another thing I'd like to change is to make saber defense 3 feel more useful. It actually has a disadvantage against 1 and 2. I'm not sure whether this is the result of sloppy coding, or it was intended by Raven... but -- parries can fail occasionally, and you're technically unable to block until you finish the parry animation.

 

Now, when I say "fail", I mean, your character/the NPC does the long parry animation, but you/they aren't staggered, you just bounce off like a normal block. Not to mention NPCs cheat sometimes and just cancel their staggers anyway, and saber defense 3 is the only one that can parry by default without parry bonuses, so it actually makes your ability to block attacks consecutively a bit weaker/slower in a way than defense 1/2. This is offset somewhat by your overall "faster?" deflection speed and your increased block arc, but still.

 

Also, I don't like how when a style/attack is "strong", it completely throws any blocking out the window. As in, one touch from strong or staff and your guard is crushed! Not realistic at all IMO. Stronger attacks when combo'd should break IMO but not instantly. Also that makes it so I can make strong style less silly without it being overpowered. As it is I can let the player block strong but at that point almost nothing (save specials sometimes) can break your guard.

[katanamaru]

Yes 200 does make it take some time to get around. I would have bound a button to up the speed, but I have one for noclip. So I use that one when I want to travel a larger distance faster. Though binding a key to something faster isn't a bad idea now that I'm thinking about it.

 

Interesting about the offense and defense powers. I didn't know that. That defense 3 is very wierd indeed. Though since I play with alwaysblock 1 I haven't noticed it too much. I'll get the larger parry animation but can still block if my saber is in the way.

 

I agree that strong style was very odd with how ineffective it was with blocking. I could see it blocking less combos, but being very strong against single attacks.

[Dusty]

Yes 200 does make it take some time to get around. I would have bound a button to up the speed, but I have one for noclip. So I use that one when I want to travel a larger distance faster. Though binding a key to something faster isn't a bad idea now that I'm thinking about it.

 

Interesting about the offense and defense powers. I didn't know that. That defense 3 is very wierd indeed. Though since I play with alwaysblock 1 I haven't noticed it too much. I'll get the larger parry animation but can still block if my saber is in the way.

 

I agree that strong style was very odd with how ineffective it was with blocking. I could see it blocking less combos, but being very strong against single attacks.

 

Yeah you can still block if the saber is in the way, aka Perfect Blocking I would think, but you/NPCs can't do another block animation until it's done (except NPCs might cheat sometimes and cancel their anims, idk).

 

And about Strong style, I wasn't talking so much about its ability to block, but rather its ability to be blocked.

[katanamaru]

Okay reread your post about strong and I agree. When I see an npc come at me with strong style I go full on form IV to get away. Like you said it's because I know I can't block that no matter how much of my saber I put in the way. A way for the strong style to break gaurds via a 3+ combo chain would be pretty neat.

[Dusty]

Yeah, and then I could make it swing a bit less returdedly, and make it feel more realistic IMO, instead of "I CANZ SWING MY SABER LIEK A BASEBALL BAT!@!"

 

And make the blocking anims a bit faster for it, which I already did in my mod a little. Right now you can block strong style, but you can't stop the swings, so you can block it a little bit at a time. Basically, you can block glancing blows (IE they would've damaged supposing you had your guard crushed), but you can't block a serious hit - really.

[katanamaru]

Are you hexing it to get that effect for the strong style?