Lore Problem

[eezstreet]

Hi, so in case you weren't aware, I am making an RPG based on a post-apocalyptic Earth. I wanted to include magic, guns, and medival weaponry. The idea is that a Rapture (hence the name of the game) has happened as part of a five-thousand year cycle. As the humans and animals on Earth reproduce, new souls are added to a pool. After a span of time, the soul pool needs to be cleared, and good/evil souls are brought to their respective domains: heaven or hell. Those who fall in a gray area are left on Earth to either reseed the planet, or prove worthiness of entering a particular domain. As such, those whose brains can still function (if their body is preserved) or their body has gone to ashes, are resurrected as normal human beings, assuming they lie in the gray area of morality.

 

In order to collect the souls, a Collector from both Hell and Heaven are sent to Earth to collect the souls. Demons however have found a loophole which allows them to invade the planet and attempt to conquer it. So, your hero will be a person with conflicted morals, and enemies will be demons.

 

This leaves a problem: magic. I wanted mages to gather demonic runes to get power. These runes, when kept in contact with someone's skin for a long enough time, allows the user to gain the power of rune, and therefore be able to cast the spell. The binding would leave a tattoo-like mark.

 

However, this interferes with the gameplay somewhat. Logically, you'd need to find these runes, and I don't want RNG to determine a character's power that much. It should depend on how the character utilizes their skills + items.

 

Also, each class has their own spells/skills. How do you explain why each class has their specific skills? I don't want a situation like Diablo 1 where all skills are available to all classes, and items are tied to skills. That just sounds silly.

[BelugaArts]

The Concept itself is extremley interesting. I will try and look into it!

[eezstreet]

Thanks. You can access the code/see progress on Github:

http://github.com/eezstreet/Rapture

 

Once I have funds figured out/something noteworthy (other than menus) to show, I will pursue getting a site set up.

[Futuza]

Have RNG 'unlock' abilities, but then make it only a weak basic 'level 0' form of the ability until the player puts xp into it/uses it/levels it up/becomes experienced with it to be able to use it effectively.

 

eg:  Ability = Speed

Level 0 = 1.1x regular character speed - extremely pathetic

Level 1 - 1.5x regular character speed - getting better

Level 2 - 2x regular character speed - yay

Level 3 - 4x regular character speed - wahoo

Level 4 - 8x regular character speed - imma good

 

 

At least if I understand your system right.  Although if you are worried about player not having enough abilities/can't find ruins fast enough to keep up with difficulty that is a bit more problematic.

[Ping]

I guess you could explain skills through talents or dispositions: Mages are more disposed towards this whole soul business and are thus more receptive to whatever energy they can draw from that, whereas warriors are just people who are talented at fighting with swords; that way, you kinda start out with people who are quite excellent as they are, which would also explain why they are so good at killing hordes of ARPG enemies even though they are level 0 at the start of the game and thus quite pathetic, but still vastly more capable than your random flavour-text villager. They are talented people in their own right and someone who is a pretty skilled swordsman, probably due to talent, interest, environment etc, is not all of a sudden going to turn mage for the sake of it, especially not in the face of somesort of immanent threat to his existence: "oh let's pick up magic now that hordes of demons have invaded earth and want to kill me instead of using my abilities that i have gained through years of hard training." So they're pretty good from the start and they just get better with experience.

 

For the mages, you could have them (gameplay-wise) unlock the skills after a certain amount of levels and claim that they, through experience, have somehow grown spiritually in such a way that they can now conceive of things outside of what they were capable of before, i.e. that they can either imagine more or understand something better, got deeper insight etc and are thus able to use the very same thing (magic, rune) in a completely different way. You could still use runes with bonuses as drops to increase your power and could explain that by saying that they are basically the same runes (about the same stuff), just more powerful (syphon more demonic energy at once or affect your mind somehow that you can concentrate more or whatever). That way you can have mages start out with a basic rune (just as a warrior starts out with a basic sword), something that the mage found a few years back and acquired the skill to cast a basic spell by prolonged use from a time before the gameplay began.

 

But really, this is supposed to be an ARPG, so the narrative matters very little if at all. People don't play Diablo3 for its narrative integrity, but rather for the phat lewt, as they do with Torchlight 2 and pretty much all the other games in that genre. Diablo3's skill and rune progression was given zero story explanation at all, so if you just say that mages find different runes that allow them to use different skills, but gameplay-wise you just have them unlock certain runes/skills after a fixed amount of levels, people won't hate your face for that.

[eezstreet]

Have RNG 'unlock' abilities, but then make it only a weak basic 'level 0' form of the ability until the player puts xp into it/uses it/levels it up/becomes experienced with it to be able to use it effectively.

 

eg:  Ability = Speed

Level 0 = 1.1x regular character speed - extremely pathetic

Level 1 - 1.5x regular character speed - getting better

Level 2 - 2x regular character speed - yay

Level 3 - 4x regular character speed - wahoo

Level 4 - 8x regular character speed - imma good

 

 

At least if I understand your system right.  Although if you are worried about player not having enough abilities/can't find ruins fast enough to keep up with difficulty that is a bit more problematic.

This is exactly what I wanted to avoid. If a player can't find runes via RNG, then they're severely handicapped as it prevents them from being able to play the game effectively. Also, how is one supposed to level up a skill if it's based on an item?

 

Although,

 

I wanted to make three different types of 'runes':

- Skill Runes: these cause the tattoos and give powers

- Modification Runes: modify the tattoos and tweak powers slightly (not level them up)

- Item Runes: give enchantments on items

 

I guess you could explain skills through talents or dispositions: Mages are more disposed towards this whole soul business and are thus more receptive to whatever energy they can draw from that, whereas warriors are just people who are talented at fighting with swords; that way, you kinda start out with people who are quite excellent as they are, which would also explain why they are so good at killing hordes of ARPG enemies even though they are level 0 at the start of the game and thus quite pathetic, but still vastly more capable than your random flavour-text villager. They are talented people in their own right and someone who is a pretty skilled swordsman, probably due to talent, interest, environment etc, is not all of a sudden going to turn mage for the sake of it, especially not in the face of somesort of immanent threat to his existence: "oh let's pick up magic now that hordes of demons have invaded earth and want to kill me instead of using my abilities that i have gained through years of hard training." So they're pretty good from the start and they just get better with experience.

 

For the mages, you could have them (gameplay-wise) unlock the skills after a certain amount of levels and claim that they, through experience, have somehow grown spiritually in such a way that they can now conceive of things outside of what they were capable of before, i.e. that they can either imagine more or understand something better, got deeper insight etc and are thus able to use the very same thing (magic, rune) in a completely different way. You could still use runes with bonuses as drops to increase your power and could explain that by saying that they are basically the same runes (about the same stuff), just more powerful (syphon more demonic energy at once or affect your mind somehow that you can concentrate more or whatever). That way you can have mages start out with a basic rune (just as a warrior starts out with a basic sword), something that the mage found a few years back and acquired the skill to cast a basic spell by prolonged use from a time before the gameplay began.

 

But really, this is supposed to be an ARPG, so the narrative matters very little if at all. People don't play Diablo3 for its narrative integrity, but rather for the phat lewt, as they do with Torchlight 2 and pretty much all the other games in that genre. Diablo3's skill and rune progression was given zero story explanation at all, so if you just say that mages find different runes that allow them to use different skills, but gameplay-wise you just have them unlock certain runes/skills after a fixed amount of levels, people won't hate your face for that.

Now that I think about it, this makes a lot of sense. Likewise, someone isn't going to be tempted to use class-specific gear if it's stereotyped a particular way or handicap them ("Why would I use a big heavy Ballista weapon or wear girly clothes? I'm meant to be a gangster..."). I guess I never really considered that fact. The fact that you mention a basic rune gives me some ideas then in how I want to pursue this. I thought about having a starter skill for each class. For example, the mage might have Charged Bolt or Firebolt or something to start out with, and then they are able to learn new skills as they level up. But, if they have a starter skill, ergo, tattoo, the tattoo itself could grow as the character does in their understanding, instead of the character acquiring new tattoos through new runes.

 

As I mentioned above, I was thinking about adding modification runes. I found that in Nightmare and Hell of Diablo 2, it got a bit boring as the skills just progressively got better. So I'm looking at how Diablo 3 handles the whole skill runes idea, and I think it's a good idea, albeit it's slightly handicapped as well. They didn't offer the option that they said before with finding the runes themselves, with varying degrees of power. I'm thinking just runes that are worn around the neck, and only modify specific skills (instead of all of them). So for example, Charged Bolt:

 

Level 1: Releases 3 bolts, 1-4 damage each

Level 2: Releases 5 bolts, 1-8 damage each

...

Level 20: Releases 25 bolts, 1-180 damage each

 

Modifications:

Chipped Elspeth: Release a wave with trailing Charged Bolts. Each bolt does 50% of the original damage

Mint Elspeth: Release a wave with trailing Charged Bolts. Each bolt does 100% of the original damage

Chipped Gamma: Release twice as many Charged bolts, radiating from the player in all directions. Each bolt does 50% of original damage.

Flamesbreath: No effect.

Mint Sigma: Create a large ball of lightning, which explodes for 400% of original damage in a 5 yard radius, and releases Charged Bolts which do 100% of original damage

etc.

 

This might get a bit complicated in terms of balance though.

 

The reason I want a decent story is because I think Torchilght, PoE, D3, etc have deviated too far from how Diablo 2 handles the story, and that in turn harms the personality of the game. I don't like how in-your-face it was with Diablo 3, but then again, Diablo 3 had a generally bad way of telling the story (demons constantly saying something to the effect of 'muwhahaha! you killed my army but i'm gonna get youuuuu') and perhaps the original idea that they were going for wasn't so bad. If people don't want a story, I was thinking about adding an option to skip that sort of thing and just provide the player with a barebones version of it. Also, I can understand the desire for a story in an RPG, but the way that BioWare and Bethesda (Fallout was OK) do it is boring. I wanted to go for a more traditional approach like the original Star Wars movies did: a protagonist who overcomes a problem, and an actual character arc. I don't see this often in games, which is ironic as they're the perfect medium to do so. Instead, BioWare and co. try to focus more on epic environments and large, branching storylines instead of sticking to one solid character arc. I've done quite a bit of research, and the one-arc approach does remarkably well- The Hobbit, SW 4-6, and a considerable number of highly-acclaimed stories do this. 

[Ping]

I think adding a barebones, more sandbox-y option is an excellent choice that I believe most people are going to play, at the very least once they've finished the main campaign. Blizzard realized this was a good idea waaay too late, but even they have now implemented an open world option, i.e. d3 minus the story. I think this is important and just goes to show what the game is really all about and where its appeal actually lies.

 

If you're not already too invested in the christian myth surrounding the core of your narrative, why not go for something completely and utterly different? Something absolutely radical that was never done before? It would raise significant eyebrows and give you a lot of exposure, even if it's just because of the wildness of your story or setting. For example, you could have the entire narrative revolve around philosophy:

 

The great menace of bad relativism has won over the world with terrible arguments and now every shmuck is walking around spouting awkward arguments for relativism in all spheres of existence without knowing what they're talking about; so enemies would be modelled as relativists of various kinds, relativists about art, global relativists about knowledge, partial relativists about knowledge, historical relativists, framework relativists, cultural relativists, moral relativists, there's plenty to go around. The selectable characters would be a handful of would-be philosophers that specialize in certain branches: So we get the scientific realist here, the kantian deontologist there, the metaethical naturalist, the aesthetic formalist, hell you could even add a relativist in there who finds the pseudo-philosophical crap that everyone else is spouting to be nonesense and vows to take down all the terrible arguments offered by everyone else and dethrone the champions of relativism with his own better thought out arguments. The bosses would go from other no-name would-be philosophers to either historically or philosophically significant personas.

 

Armor would be clothes of various kinds, depending on which character you pick: The deontologist would get to wear 18th century extravagant robes, the scientific realist would get conservative modern stuff, the formalist something extravagantly modern and so on. Skills would be modelled after arguments, weapons would be books, scientific or philosophical papers, art objects, thought experiments scribbed on some paper or everyday objects that inspire certain arguments.

 

The real challenge would lie in intellectualizing the combat though, since this is an ARPG: You could for example claim that yes, some of the people are out to do physical violence to you and you disable them with argument, and they don't die but rather just fall over lost in thought, rethinking their lives. You'd hit them with books or papers ingame (and they'd certainly return the favour, dropping their stuff in the process), but it would be implied that you're actually convincing them with arguments inspired by your items (that modify or increased the power of your skills); spells are more suited for this for obvious reasons and there's plenty of room for creativity here in the design of the combat.

 

Anyways, nevermind me.

[eezstreet]

That sounds like an interesting mix between Ace Attorney and Pokemon

 

But no, I'm really invested in the concept of this. Ever since I saw Rapture's Delight (American Dad), I thought it would make for an awesome sort of game concept. For some of the characters, I was thinking of:

 

- A Mage character. She killed herself in the '90s, after her ex, in a jealous rage, outed her lesbianism and interest in Wicca to her parents (who are very strict, overbearing Catholics). Her interest in magick fostered a strong spark in demonic runestones, but only for the power of good as her beliefs. Despite doing a number of good deeds and risking herself for the sake of others, she is still very much in doubt as to the reason of her staying in purgatory. She suspects that it could be her religion, her suicide, her defiance of her parents, or her sexual orientation. Many of these questions become answered in the character's arc.

 

- A Gangster character, killed in a shootout during the late '20s. Decades of smuggling alcohol, weapons, and other illegal substances had made him jaded to criminal activity. He had seen the fruits of his labors firsthand - husbands slaying their wives, drunks in the street, and multitudes of people caught with his stuff, not theirs. He had always been a religious man, but while he had been busy with jobs, he never had the time to commit to his faith. The day before his fateful Valentine holiday, he had prayed that the deal would go through. His presence in purgatory serves as a path to redemption for his greed and debauchery.

 

There's going to be more characters/classes, obviously. These are just the ones that I have come up with so far. I'm shooting for like 3 right now, but I might add more. Ideally I'd like a ranged, mage, and melee character. Since the gangster uses guns, I'd like to add a magic bow class too. 

 

As far as a sandbox, I think that would be a good idea. It could be a definite option for multiplayer, if I decide to go there, seeing as how some of the stuff in the campaign needs to be stripped out/changed (I was thinking maybe each class could have a different prologue/intro and different epilogue, different quests in each one)