Original Trilogy vs. Original Trilogy

[dark_apprentice]

As most are familiar, some people enjoy the original trilogy of Star Wars as some older members around us know it (as i myself know it, since my first time seen the trilogy was at age 5 on video cassette at home. Than we have the modern editing on the original trilogy, where Lucas had more options to play with the movie effects etc etc. No matter if we speak for a Blue Ray or DVD versions. I personally don't like to see the Prequel's Anakin Force spirit in the end of ROTJ. I like to see Sebastian. Also removing Sebastian's eyebrows when Luke removed Vader's helmet is something i didn't like as well.
 

Maybe it is because of the age, maybe it is simple nostalgia... but somehow with the time I prefer the original original trilogy as i remember it. In that way of thought here is the JKA models of the two Emperors:

*NOTE* - at the beginning with Episodes 5 the actor who played Palpatine/Sidious/Emperor was Elaine Baker and he was voiced by Clive Revill... and than we have the all we know him Emperor profiled by Ian McDiarmid. Not that i don't like Ian or something else, but i like things as they were made at the first time ever.

What do you think. How do you see the original Star Wars saga.

Elaine Baker (voiced by Clive Revill)


Ian McDiarmid:

[therfiles]

Yeah some of the changes (like the horrible CGI added to make the locations more "immersive") really didn't work well for me. It's clear how a lot of that added CGI doesn't hold up with all the other practical effects. However, I did like the change of Palpatine in 5. I'm sorry, but  Elaine Baker looked kinda ridiculous as the Emperor and nothing like what his real-action performance would be in Episode 6. The additions to the space battles did help as well, as Lucas could finally give it the scale he really wanted to.

 

[Daedra]

 

 

Looks like E.T. is calling home.

[DrXann]

The original Emperor looked like a bad case of special effects gone wrong.Ian is the real actor behind who always has been behind Palpatine since his appearance in ROTJ.Not by some woman who is voiced Clive.I prefer the 2004 Palpatine replacement its more lore friendly since now.

[DT.]

I like all the edits except vaders No & replacing Sebastian shaw as a force ghost.

 

They still have yet to fix that lightsaber Wampa issue or properly fix lukes saber in episode 4 and the audio for episode 4 needs refining as it's too pitchy in places.

[Rayce]

I like all of the edits except Greedo shooting first. I know some of the CG is poorly done, such as Jabba in episode IV, but I don't care. Paraphrasing Lucas' own words: "You use special effects to tell the story". And I think these additions just help further the story (except Greedo shooting first, that didn't need to happen). As for Hayden in the place of Sebastian, I'm not really sure how I feel, I like the little nod to the prequel trilogy, but: 

1. IMO A good portion of Hayden's acting in the prequels is laughably bad, especially when he's talking to Padme.
2. Why does Anakin get to look all young while Obi and Yoda still look like crusty old dudes?   I think they should have either added Ewen McGregor (and maybe Qui-Gon as well) or just left the shot alone besides some minor touch-ups to improve quality.

Speaking of special effects, here's a great analysis on the industry, which I think is quite relevant:

[DrXann]

Everyone needs to realize that technology now a days is more advanced.Old special effects might be still good but they starting to show their age.

[therfiles]

While I think you all bring up excellent points regarding CG (and @ that essay is awesome), there is still such a thing as bad CGI. I think I was watching an interview with Rick McCallum, the producer of the prequels, and he made a comment something like this "If you look at each frame, you'll notice just how dense it is. There's always so much going on." It's this mentality that makes some of the OT edits, in my opinion, quite poor. Shots like when the large alien literally blocks the screen in the Mos Eisely scene in ANH, and when they clearly added new Stormtroopers that look fake. The CGI is bad because the Stormtroopers who were actually there, the ones in those terribly hot costumes in the Tunisia desert, they look real because they are weathered and animated by real people. The CGI in comparison to such real, practical effects frankly doesn't even come close.

 

A large portion of the edits are gags. They aren't telling the story, they are trying to forcefully expand this already incredibly rich universe. And they failed. Jabba is laughably fake. That scene wasn't even in the original theatrical version. Those scenes aren't needed. They could have reconstructed the original Jabba puppet and put him in there, and it might have looked better. But the whole scene ruins what the opening scene of Episode 6 does. Would you buy the fact that Jabba is a powerful yet immobile slug when you see him circling and slithering all around Han in ANH? And how would you feel when Han literally steps on Jabba's tail? It undoes a lot of excellent characterization.

 

Now scenes that fix things are needed. Making the lasers look better, making more dynamic space battles, fixing acting and roto-scopting effects that all makes perfect sense. ANH had quite a few tough spots and they were fixed excellently.

 

At the end of the day, as Freddie Wong says in the video essay shared above, the CG is really only noticeable if the storytelling is bad. Is the storytelling bad in the OT? Of course not. But the story that they decide to inject, a story of random aliens, and little mice that run across the screen, has no subsistence or significance. It's just cute. And while CG is great (and it's used in so many more ways than you'd think) it will only be as great as the story it's there to tell.

[dark_apprentice]

I really like how this thread turned out, because we can all let our personal opinions over here. At the moment from what everyone have said i really like and admire your views on this, however @@therfiles have said until now the most important opinion and i cannot agree more with him. Yes we all can admit, that the machines can make so much HQ stuff, ect, ect... but in the end we all watch/listen to the final product. Personally I love all the 6 movies of Star Wars and i can say i am familiar with them since i was 5 year old kid, but in the other hand as i get older and older with each time i watch the saga it simple brings me to the idea, that still some old techinuqe is better than the PCs. For sure we will have a lot to talk about this, after all of us have seen in December the new Episode 7. As therfiles have said above, it is nice to see much more stormies against Han, but again it's simple strange to see few of them moving better, because they were played by humans. That's why we have the scene of ROTJ over Endor where we have lots of troopers and rebels.

[NumberWan]

Back in 1997 I did enjoy larger Tatooine, though the Ronto addition in a few places was dubious, like the one that walks in the front, removing an astromech droid as well as Luke and Obi Wan in the land speeder. It was also good, that they cleared the shadow underneath the speeder.

 

Some new shots of Tatooine with larger views of a sand crawler - it was also a good addition.

 

The scene with Jabba was somehow funny, but Jabba himself didn't look like the one we know from ROTJ. He looked too small compared to his original version. I would rather see the scene reshot a bit, excluding the moment when Han walks upon Hutt's tail. It was good from the point that they decided to find a solution to the walking around of Han, but unnecessary.

 

Other minor changes like X-Wing leaving Yavin IV and similar scenes - these were also welcome. They didn't change the plot and thus added a better visualization. It might have been nothing special for the older fans, but I am sure people new to Star Wars and minors would comment something like - "this movie is solo old". A least that's what I hear from some.

 

Episode V has now more of the Bespin view. While I am not sure if changing a corridor into a balcony was a need, I do like the idea of seeing the city and its streets. Changing the Emperor was also a good move, but I would make him look more like Episode VI version. Not Episode III... My brother expected to see more of the Empire in Episode V - he hoped, that the new scenes would reveal more close combat between the Rebels and the Empire, as well as the scene of landing craft, as AT-AT begin their operation on Hoth.

 

Some people say they would prefer Wampa to remain unseen, but personally I believe that to be the right choice. From the beginning I wanted to see that creature.

 

The Jabba's Palace sequence in ROTJ as a whole could have remained the same, there was no necessity for adding new aliens. I also think, that such iconic moments as the duel on the Death Star should have remained untouched (the NO moment). But I appreciate adding the celebration scenes (Bespin, Tatooine, Naboo, Coruscant) in the ending.

[z3filus]

I love the old VHS version of StarWars, mostly because that's how I first saw it ( = nostalgic reasons , shortly put ) But I do like the new CGi stuff they added.

The ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi is debatable. The Younger Anaking has maybe a too deep meaning to it, as if the true Anakin, the kind one, died before he became Vader.
It feels like a humane, last artistic act to stress the fact that Anakin was good inside. But shouldn't your force ghost look the same as you did before you died, right? If you belive in ghosts....
So we should see Anakin in his Vader suit, with or without his helmet. But that would be just akward. He shouldn't be seen as Sebastian either,  cuz Anakin never appeared as an old man.


infact it doesnt make any sense that anakin shows up since it's not a given fact that each Jedi would appear as a ghost, no, it's something that is learned and something that requires deep understanding of the Force. 
Anakin was the chosen one, but his mind was weak. He was very physical and ambitious. Why would he appear? if anything his ghost should be replaced with Qui-Gon's ghost since he appeared before Yoda and Obi-wan.


 

[NumberWan]

@

That's the thing: no one asks the question why Anakin shows up in the end of Episode VI at all. When the OT was the only story, it was majority believed, that both Yoda and Obi Wan reached some sort of enlightenment, which allowed them to be Force spirits (it was never mentioned sure). But it was more natural, rather than a special ability. Perhaps at the moment, Anakin was able to become a ghost through other means - that he overthrew the evil, that he was a good man inside and this goodness fought for his return, that his love for Luke was greater than everything else. Now one more reason is added -he was a Chosen One.

 

Some ask why Padme and Qui Gon wouldn't appear there as well. Luke didn't know them, that might be the reason. Actually I guess this is the moment, when the logic can't be applied. Otherwise we would have to ask the midichlorians about all this...

[z3filus]

@

 Perhaps at the moment, Anakin was able to become a ghost through other means - that he overthrew the evil, that he was a good man inside and this goodness fought for his return, that his love for Luke was greater than everything else.

 

and in that case, the point when he found goodness within himself, he was about 40 years old, living inside a suit, with a breathing machine, etc etc. so yeah...  what the fuck... >_>

Padmé is not a Jedi and can't appear as a force ghost. A fact that I'd like to keep as such. I don't want Disney to turn Padmé into a magical princess who rejoined her love in heaven.

 

Just No.

 

So...  having read all the above and having thought about it myself, I think the only ghosts in the end of ROTJ should be Obi-wan and Yoda. It would server the story better.

Anakin's story is a sad one, and in the end, he got a private funeral from his son, and with Yoda and Obi-Wan standing in the background witnessing it all. It's perfect for me.

He died a hero. Not as a Jesus who should suddenly be "resurrected" in the way of making his ghost appear, especially the younger version of him. That's just too much.

[Onysfx]

 

This fan edit made palpatines face look far more like the emperor from episode 6.

[NumberWan]

@
The ghost of Padme is a thing, which appeared countless of times among fans. One such person wrote, that when watching with his mother, she asked in the end, that why Luke and Leia's mother wasn't there - her logic is that they have two parents, so why wouldn't they show both.

Some fans made stories, that Padme was actually Force sensitive and would alter use a lightsaber. At least twice I saw some fanfics, developing this idea to the extent, that Padme left the Senate to become a Jedi and even replacing her with another Naboo queen, making her a Padawan. I don't like this at all, as I enjoy the difference in characters - Jedi, soldiers, smugglers, traders, little droids, evil lords, adventurous travelers, freaky-freaks and many others. Star Wars has all of these. So not seeing Padme in Episode VI is pretty much logical.

I also think that Yoda and Obi Wan are the only true Force Ghosts. Anakin... perhaps he attained this status differently. It was never truly explained how Yoda and obi Wan were capable of doing that (later sources say Yoda learnt that from Qui Gon and the Force priestesses, and Obi Wan from his former master, but it changes a little). The clothes worn by Yoda and Obi Wan never truly indicated they were in Jedi robes. It was more like a costume for old a wise. We can see the same trait in Qu Rahn in Dark Forces II, who is more of a mentor, who was forced to use his saber against Dark Jedi.

The concepts for Episode I suggest, that the Jedi had a very different uniform, more bluish grey in color and reminded more of a Ninja. So probably the concept of peace-loving Jedi came a but later regarding the clothes, and this idea is seen in Episode I.
 

[dark_apprentice]

Well i guess about Anakin's ghost in the end of ROTJ original version, is because he was the greatest jedi and sith ever lived. He was the one to destroy the sith and he really did it as jedi knight and aslo as dark lord of the Sith, by understanding his own son's pain. As Padme said to Kenobi "there's still good in him" yes of the point of view of someone who is in a relationship with him, in marriage and is the mother of his kids, she knew him better even than Master Kenobi. As father Anakin/Vader himself, even as the most iconic evil figure of all times, he is still touched by the emotional even spiritual (if you want) bound between him and his own flesh and blood - Luke. That is for me the reason to turn against his twisted evil master the Emperor, and by that he realized how much bad he have created in the universe. There is a redemption for sure. And by killing him he returned the balance in the Force as it was told. It could be a reason why we would see him as force ghost in the end, by that he reached a higher level of the force, assuming no one until than has ever returned from the dark side. As Master Yoda told Luke and not only him, once in the dark there is no coming back, but Anakin managed to do it after all. And don't forget that in Episode 3 he might be a young Jedi Knight around 20-30 who leave 2 babies, but when the time come of the New Hope to rise as his own son was near the same age, that was years later and it is normal to see old Anakin in the end.

Personally now i am a little bit interested in the story with Darth Tenebrous, since it is very possible he's the real father of Anakin and not just Darth Plagueis. In fact it can be Tenebrous reborn..ed from the maxichlorians as a powerful boy named Anakin

[Numfast]

How do I see? Well, when i'm watching the entire saga, i using 2011 Blu-ray Edition of OT. But if I watching only OT, I using theatrical cut.

As force ghost of Anakin I prefer Sebastian Shaw.

P.S. Plus I hate SE for blue gamma.

[z3filus]

 

 

Personally now i am a little bit interested in the story with Darth Tenebrous, since it is very possible he's the real father of Anakin and not just Darth Plagueis. In fact it can be Tenebrous reborn..ed from the maxichlorians as a powerful boy named Anakin

he died 15 years before Sidious was even born, so....     no

[therfiles]

Here's a neat little comparison video I found!

 

[z3filus]

I hope to never see a reboot of the original films.

[therfiles]

Here's part two. I didn't quite realize just how many things were fixed. Most of the enhancements, especially the focus and re-coloring of the scenes is spot-on.

[Numfast]

Here's part two. I didn't quite realize just how many things were fixed. Most of the enhancements, especially the focus and re-coloring of the scenes is spot-on.

Well, in RotJ Lucas even changed some of the replics, like that one:

It's all right, trust me-original.

It's all right, I can see a lot better-SE.

[dark_apprentice]

he died 15 years before Sidious was even born, so....     no

Are you even familiar with the book "The Tenebrous way" ?

[Cerez]

While the original three movies had plenty of flaws, too, I still prefer the trilogy in its very first release. It stands the test of time and has a more gritty, real-life quality to it that I cherish. CGI special effects are just not the same, and visualising or explaining more often means taking away the imaginative charm of the piece.

 

It's much like if you were to take the original Jurassic Park film and start revamping its special effects to "update" them. It would damage the integrity of the original film, and affect its imaginative charm. Yes, technology moves forward. But just because an older great film is no longer technologically up-to-date doesn't make it any less immersive or engaging. Updating its graphics only causes damage to the imaginative world the audience has created around it in their minds.

 

That's my standing on all this, and I completely disagree with Lucas' philosophy on this -- that a creative work is never truly finished. If a creative work is released and loved and adopted by many people, have some integrity and respect for the work and its fans, and don't change it.

[NumberWan]

@@Cerez

There are scenes in the OT, that ought to be changed – like the land speeder sequence. Even as a child I often questioned the red crude shadow underneath. While such minor changes as Boba Fett voice or Slave I engine sounds - were unnecessary. At the same time the redesigned hangar on Death Star I, cleaning of image and correcting the mirrored shots (like with Imperials aboard Star Destroyer) was also a right thing to do.

 

Adding a celebration sequence in the end was also a good move. It gave much more depth to the death of the Emperor and the eventual fall of the Empire. I felt quite lonely, when I saw the ewoks celebrating near fire, while Luke looks at his father's dead body. Now with Naboo, Bespin and Tatooine and Coruscant the scene is full of joy, but retains the loneliness and probably the feel, that Luke will have to move on alone, without any guidance. What would we all ave to expect?

 

CGI was a trait of 1990s and early 2000s, and Lucas has always dreamed of using them, just the time wasn't right. Here and there one could hear rumors, that Lucas wasn't satisfied with the actors and would prefer to replace all of them with CGI people, or at least cast an entirely Japanese team for Episode II, instead of relying on "spoiled Western actors".

 

Perhaps using CGI in 1990s was somehow a right thing to do. Now we have other advanced technologies (like animatronics), so it is time for them now.