Revival of JKA's modding community

[afi]

You mean getting into competitive multiplayer?

This game got a lot of features and it's not easy to learn, even if you are not into competitive play.

You got guns, force, unique melee combat, special attacks, several kind of jumps, several game modes (even without mods).

I think what this game needs is something like id Software did with Quake Live: Preserving the original gameplay but making it easier for newbs.

Means having an actual ingame tutorial, maybe even an ingame wiki etc. Quake Live also got a new feature now that allows you to do basic strafe jumps just by holding down the jump button. It's way slower than actual strafe jumping but at least you can keep up until you learn the real thing. Someone suggested a simplified version of the game as a new gamemode.

I know it's unrealistic but I wish it was possible to gather all players and modders and create something big that saves this game in the long term. I mean, there are dozens of mods with really small playerbases (there are even still people playing 1.0) and a lot of people who work on their own little mods. But what is the point if the community doesn't exist anymore in a couple years? I'd much rather work on something big for the community instead of finishing one of my mods that will be downloaded like 50 times if I'm lucky.

[UniqueOne]

For your consideration, @@UniqueOne: Level Editing In UE4 Kinda Needs To Catch Up To Quake 1, Hypothesising Negative Effects of Ubiquitous Modular Mesh Based Level Design.

 

I'm not convinced that existing editors will do us any good, I still think a custom editor could be easier to use and more powerful.

Both options have good and bad sides. I tend to lean toward using an existing project though to outsource updates. The OJK team right now does not have the resources to do everything for an engine as well as an editor... even if they never actually need to update.

 

 

I do agree that support for heightmap based terrain might be worth adding to JKA, brushes are not the right way of creating them. And having distance-based LODs and possibly occlusion volumes as an alternative/in addition to BSP would be cool. (I have CryEngine's Sandbox in mind writing this.)

Absolutely. The heightmap based terrain is the big one. It has the potential to get new people addicted quickly while just screwing around (specially if you can also draw foliage and trees the same way). And what you end up with is a much better product then the Q3 brush system. As the scene grows, new people create pre-build map objects and maps will be spewing out in no time.

 

 

It borders on a total conversion though; outside of the roleplay community and possibly some vehicle based maps I don't see how current game modes could reasonably work on maps that large. There's only so much space you can fill with 32 players. You seem to be suggesting Jedi Knight: The MMORPG, or possibly Jedi Knight: The Open World SP RPG. A project of that size is practically impossible.

 

Or what exactly is it you want?

That sounds like what i've been working on for the last 9 months or so... The warzone mod is not about eye candy. It just also has that. I like shiny as much as the next guy, but I know it alone is not enough.

[Kualan]

The OP raises some great questions, and this thread is a really interesting one to follow. Personally I think we will see a surge of players during the Episode 7 launch regardless - but there's no sense catering to the Multiplayer TDM 'COD'-style player with a 12 year old game, since Battlefront will swallow up that playerbase whole. Focusing on the unique aspects that JKA offers and expanding them is best, I suspect - saber combat (still unmatched by any game since, IMO), good SP content and customisation.

 

I just wish I had more to contribute, right now our foremost modders are debating how best to reshape the future of the modding community:

 

 

 

 

 

And then there's me sat with my kitbashes:

 

 

 

 

 

[eezstreet]

Height map terrain is actually in the game, in the form of the RMG system. The terrain entity uses a texture + height map to generate a landscape. The tech is there, just not used.

 

I've been basically saying this all along. What we need are compelling experiences and right now there are none outside of the main campaign and the ultra competitive, steep learning curve multiplayer modes. There's nothing to keep people around for a long time.

 

I think rend2 will help draw modders, but it's ultimately not a silver bullet in bringing players in. Neither is an open world system. Skyrim got popular because it's a much newer game and it was hyped up to the extreme on its release. Same with Fallout 4. It's one of the best open world RPGs that's out there, and it's a popular game series too.

Making a new mapping system isn't the right way to go. You can still make great experiences on this engine, there's just few people willing to do it.

 

...and JKA still has a better sabering system than Skyrim ever could.

[afi]

Star Wars with big battles? Battlefront

Star Wars with story? KotoR

Star Wars with force powers? TFU

 

The only really unique feature in Jedi Academy is the saber system and that's (imo) the only reason why someone would pick Jedi Knight over the games I mentioned above.

[Archangel35757]

@@eezstreet et al, then let us all band together and make an SP demo map for OJK+Rend2 to showcase all the new features.

 

Regarding heightmaps and large terrains-- it would be an improvement if we could break down the terrain textures into large sections ( I'm not talking about tiling one texture pattern over the entire terrain...). Think of Vue xStream or Vue Pioneer or Terragen, etc. Where the artist builds a huge terrain and then can render-to-texture all the texture maps (even normal maps) but they are sliced up into 2048 or 4096 squares.

[Ping]

Star Wars with big battles? Battlefront

Star Wars with story? KotoR

Star Wars with force powers? TFU

 

The only really unique feature in Jedi Academy is the saber system and that's (imo) the only reason why someone would pick Jedi Knight over the games I mentioned above.

And it only really works well in MP, which is the problem.

[therfiles]

One thing I remember when I was younger and just starting out was how SP mods really attracted my attention. I remember mods like Movie Duels II, which to this day remains one of the most popular JKA mods on Moddb. Mods like that offered a completely new gaming experience for the old game, and also attracted new players because the premise was simply incredible, and not met in any other game. This is why I think KOTF was so popular, and why so many were willing to look past it's obvious flaws.

 

In my opinion SP is best used when it is creating a gaming experience that is not only completely new and fun, but also unique only to JKA. I got burned out on several projects because there was already other ways to play what I was making. I tried to make an SP Harry Potter game, but there were already incredible Harry Potter video games out there. I tried making a KOTOR SP mod, but...KOTOR is already such a great game. With SP, you can tell stories, make missions, and make something memorable. Not that you can't do that in MP, but that's really what SP was made for.

 

Mods like Movie Duels II, Movie Battles 2, and many others offered new glimpses into a tried game and gave perspective on just what could be accomplished. They excited me as a player, and made me want to explore modding.

 

And maybe the time of large Total Conversions is over. Maybe it is. But my gosh did they attract new people. That's why I have so much respect for those who embarked on such huge projects, even if they didn't finish them. So what is the solution? Keep creating awesome content. Work together on larger, more impressive projects, and create a community people want to join. Wow that sounded way to hippyish. My bad.

 

I personally don't have too much against the tools we already have. They have their limitations, but once you get them figured out (easier said than done, I know) it's all about the community of people who work together to create something great.

[mrwonko]

I personally don't have too much against the tools we already have. They have their limitations, but once you get them figured out (easier said than done, I know) it's all about the community of people who work together to create something great.

Raise your standards! You don't have to accept mediocre tools. Just because all Jedi Academy modding can be done using a Hexeditor doesn't mean you should limit yourself to one.

 

I don't disagree with what you're saying regarding community though.

[DT.]

Shader, textures and menu files can be edited with the game running, just need to do vid_restart. Maps & models however require a full game restart.

[mrwonko]

Shader, textures and menu files can be edited with the game running, just need to do vid_restart. Maps & models however require a full game restart.

Isn't devmapall supposed to reload all resources? I'm not entirely sure...

[JAWSFreelao]

My thought process is based off what @@therfiles said on page 3. The thing we need to do is all work together. Perhaps they could join our project and work on separate sections (Episode III, IV, whatever). If we all can agree that in order to save this community we need to drop a muh fuggn bomb on the common gamer, then I think whoever has any wherewithal or skill or even small things to contribute should get in. If you're casually into this game then don't hop in. But I personally want to raise the standards of this game and save our dying community.

[mrwonko]

If we are to create a huge mod together, I suggest we open another thread for discussion and collect the results in the wiki. Getting such a project done is difficult and requires good organization. Where would this thread go? In the WIPs forum? If it's serious, it might get its own Mod Project Forum...

 

Personally, I wouldn't be on board though - I'm more into the idea of improving our tools, and if I were to do some modding it'd be on the aforementioned unfinished SP project. The tools project should also get its own discussion thread and wiki entry(s), I want to plan it through thoroughly rather than write something mediocre.

[JAWSFreelao]

True. New mapping software admittedly would be a great place to start. Try taking a page from Battlefront's ZeroEditor, that tool's cake to use.

[afi]

What's about having an ingame-downloader and updater for mods?

[JAWSFreelao]

But first we need more mods

[mrwonko]

What's about having an ingame-downloader and updater for mods?

The game probably has to be restarted anyway to load them, so it might as well be a separate application. Makes it a lot easier to develop, too - I wouldn't want to try to do this with JA's menu system; besides, this could probably only be available ingame when running the OpenJK "mod," which is kind of lame. But it could still be developed as a library to ease a potential ingame port.

 

But first we need more mods

I don't agree entirely - there are tons of great mods already, people just need to be made aware of them, with useful ways to filter through them.

[JAWSFreelao]

Cam you elaborate?

[hleV]

Quality > Quantity

[mrwonko]

Cam you elaborate?

I don't know what there is to elaborate. In the last dozen years numerous great mods have been released, especially if you also count high quality models and maps. Allow new players to easily find those and they'll probably run out of interest before they run out of mods.

[afi]

The game probably has to be restarted anyway to load them, so it might as well be a separate application. Makes it a lot easier to develop, too - I wouldn't want to try to do this with JA's menu system; besides, this could probably only be available ingame when running the OpenJK "mod," which is kind of lame. But it could still be developed as a library to ease a potential ingame port.

 

I don't agree entirely - there are tons of great mods already, people just need to be made aware of them, with useful ways to filter through them.

 

Not sure how MBII made their ingame updater but isn't it possible in base to download mods when joining a server without having to restart the game? But I still understand where you're coming from. You'd probably have to combine the JKA ui system with something like sql or php or whatnot while it'd be way easier to do it in a seperate tool.

[DT.]

Well I think we should at least get rend2 finished and then ported to sp. Maybe wonko could assist in improved tools?

 

Yeah I know rend2 this, rend2 that but I really think it's needed to draw in players with eye candy. Of course gameplay will keep them around, so new game modes and maps are needed moreso than player models.

[mrwonko]

Maybe wonko could assist in improved tools?

Assist? I was thinking about doing it single-handedly, if need be. Though not until I've finished some other projects, like the JK3Files mirror. And it will take time.

[Xycaleth]

Go go gadget team work!

[DT.]

So who wants to make new game modes?