Star Wars Episode VII Discussion

[z3filus]

 

I actually see Finn and Poe as two separate characters from the start: one is a pilot, the other is an untraditional stormtrooper-turned-good. We had this story with Han Solo previously, but it doesn't feel that way: for me he is forever a smuggler. So Finn makes a transition from a stormtrooper to "a just guy". Poe however is an example of a professional and a good person (something usually mentioned by other characters in the movies "He's a good guy, stick with him").

 

In one case I do feel, that adding Finn was a necessity for the sake of the plot: the new weapon is unknown to most of the characters, however Finn does know about it. This was a small break in the story, which feels awkward.

Ofcourse you do, and I'm not trying to provoke you, but obviously each character needs to be explained to the audience in one way or the other.

I'm just backing up my theory about Poe being able to save his own ass, and thus meeting with Rey and doing all the stuff that Finn does in the film.

Fin is seen as the new Han Solo because the whole film crew and the producers tell us that's the only way to look at it, but Poe could and in my opinon,

should have been that character, because he's got the same grin on his face that Han did in the OT.  He's got all the aspects of a hero, and he could've also

been able to gather some vital information about the Starkillerbase while he's held a prisoner and especially when he would have scaped.

 

(concidering that Fin would not exist)

 

But ofcourse Fin makes sense to you, as it did to me at first, but the reality is that this story, this film, is a mixture of Lucas' own script,

Luca's ideas and Disney's ideas, JJ Abrams' ideas, it's a soup of a little bit of everything. So I'm convinced that Fin is Poe, in a way

 

 

[dark_apprentice]

Ofcourse you do, and I'm not trying to provoke you, but obviously each character needs to be explained to the audience in one way or the other.

I'm just backing up my theory about Poe being able to save his own ass, and thus meeting with Rey and doing all the stuff that Finn does in the film.

Fin is seen as the new Han Solo because the whole film crew and the producers tell us that's the only way to look at it, but Poe could and in my opinon,

should have been that character, because he's got the same grin on his face that Han did in the OT.  He's got all the aspects of a hero, and he could've also

been able to gather some vital information about the Starkillerbase while he's held a prisoner and especially when he would have scaped.

 

(concidering that Fin would not exist)

 

But ofcourse Fin makes sense to you, as it did to me at first, but the reality is that this story, this film, is a mixture of Lucas' own script,

Luca's ideas and Disney's ideas, JJ Abrams' ideas, it's a soup of a little bit of everything. So I'm convinced that Fin is Poe, in a way

 

 

I can't agree more with your point of view about Finn's character and role in this movie. It could've all be done by Poe. However if you remember the character of Kyle Katarn (personally i didn't liked him for a long, long time till past 1 year), he is the one that should've be in TFA if they wanted an "extra" character instead of Poe. Kyle Katarn is former stormtrooper, he ran away  and become a Jedi, than Sith and back to Jedi stuff, he knows how to handle a lightsaber.

[eezstreet]

I suspect that Finn was added in a later revision of the script to become a character who sees from our eyes and perspective. It makes sense why they added him, but it would have made more sense if Rey filled that role. It makes less sense for Rey to be a good pilot (she is never once seen flying a ship prior to BB-8 arriving). I think with Rey and Poe there could have been a good balance here: Rey is great with fixing the ships and using the force/lightsabers, while Poe is more worldly and good at flying ships. With Rey being how she is, she's kinda blatantly overpowered in terms of a character. In the original trilogy, Luke worked well because he was shown flying things and is explained as being a good pilot amongst his peers. And weirdly, Poe serves a bigger role in the plot than Finn does, yet he is a much more shallow character. If we replace Finn with Poe, then you have extra room for exposition. It also solves two plot holes:

- The rather crap explanation of how Poe survived the crash

- Why a stormtrooper trained from birth would break down so easily

 

The part with the blaster safety being on doesn't need much explanation if you ask me. Nobody carries a loaded weapon with them with the safety off unless they want their toes shot off.

 

I'm with @ on this though. I wouldn't even think a PC angle is at work here, that's just icing on the cake.

[JediBantha]

Kyle Katarn is former stormtrooper, he ran away  and become a Jedi, than Sith and back to Jedi stuff, he knows how to handle a lightsaber.

 

He *almost* became Sith. Killing Mara would've sealed the deal, except he didn't.

[NumberWan]

In continuation of the theories, here are 13 things - actually ideas, that were dropped off in favor of other things in The Force Awakens. Interestingly, some of these were spotted as rumors 1-2 years ago and are actually mentioned in these thread.

 

1) The main villain was called the Jedi Killer at first. He looked differently, but the concept shifted towards the already known design of Kylo Ren. One concept showed this villain as a woman, which looked exactly as Darth Talon (perhaps they wanted to bring her back into canon). The other idea was that someone was impersonating Darth Vader.

 

2) Ice planet with a volcano. This location was supposed to show a new version of AT-AT, as well as a character wielding a double lightsaber, with one blade red, the other one – blue.

 

3) Luke Skywalker bizarre illusion. This was supposed to appear as a very strange image to one of the characters in the sand. It was supposed to be very scary, and Luke was supposed to be as a ghost.

 

4) Darth Vader's Castle – it was supposed to be a location visited by the main crew.

 

5) Underwater Death Star. The new weapon was built in secret under water. "Part of the second Death Star, from Return of the Jedi, ends up at the bottom of the ocean, including the Emperor’s Tower. Rey (who was called Kira at this point) has to dive into that ocean and swim inside the Emperor’s Tower and find the map that shows where the Jedi are, and where Luke is hiding. There’s also beautiful concept art of the Emperor’s sunken chamber, with bodies floating around.

And the Millennium Falcon was going to dive under the water, to find the Death Star wreckage, and possibly also rescue Kira."

 

6) Space Pirates. Millennium Falcon is captured by a gang, and Rey is made to walk the plank off their spaceship, over a large body of water (like in classic films, where shark awaits for the prey).

 

7) Anakin Skywalker's Ghost - already known one.

 

8) Poe Dameron - not a pilot, but a Jedi. Or a Bounty Hunter. His initial name was John Doe.

 

9) The beginning of the film was similar to A New Hope. It was supposed to include a Star Destroyer of old design, and unexpectedly we see a large hole in the hull. A group of scavengers tear the remaining Imperial vessel apart. The accident aboard it however makes them leave it and land on the planet nearby (possibly Jakku).

 

10) Dantooine was supposed to be the new Imperial base, built after Endor. A local volcano would be used to create the Planet Killer weapon, which was named "Doom Star" at one point. The above mentioned AT-AT would appear here, with a hammerhead instead of a classic one (hammerhead ships and vehicles were favored by the Old Republic, as we know from KOTOR and SWTOR).

 

11) Finn was called Sam and defected from the Empire at different occasion. The Empire captures the Rebels and kills them, sending bodies into space. This what causes the break in Finn's loyalty. After that he and Poe (John Doe) escape the Imperial vessel, but Doe leaves Sam behind. The latter is then rescued by local aliens on the planet (Jakku) and heal him via special ritual. Interestingly, the initial design of Poe Dameron shows him as Afro-American, while Finn is white. Also there is a picture, that one of the aliens tries to wear Finn's helmet with blood stains, what really scares the former stormtrooper.

 

12) The Resistance forces also have a super weapon of their own - the Warhammer. I remember this one from early rumors. Unlike the Starkiller however it is a massive ship with very strong shields, which can penetrate any defenses, especially planetary shields, which allows it to send smaller starships into battle or to land on the surface. Actually seeing two super weapons against each other would be better than just a battle against the Starkiller.

 

13) The Supreme Leader of the First Order is a female. Unlike Snoke she was supposed to look very beautiful and appear before Imperials (like Hux and Kylo) as a marble statue. J.J. wanted to go away from the concept of old Palpatine, however some traits prevail. However the Dark Side is too strong to keep someone really beautiful (I still remember Darth Zash from SWTOR)))) 

 

Source

 

Addition: When I heard of Starkiller capable of destroying entire systems, I thought that it would primarily attack the main star of the system, which upon exploding would crush all the planets nearby. The other theory was that something like a Galactic torpedo would arrive in the system and explode nearby one of the planets, destroying the star and all the planets with a wave.

 

P.S. I don't like rathtars. I really think they are too weird for Star Wars, don't have the feel of the Galaxy like other creatures as Sarlacc or Nexu.

[Fuse294]

[TheWhitePhoenix]

I can't agree more with your point of view about Finn's character and role in this movie. It could've all be done by Poe. However if you remember the character of Kyle Katarn (personally i didn't liked him for a long, long time till past 1 year), he is the one that should've be in TFA if they wanted an "extra" character instead of Poe. Kyle Katarn is former stormtrooper, he ran away  and become a Jedi, than Sith and back to Jedi stuff, he knows how to handle a lightsaber.

Kyle would've been badass. HOWEVER, they would've had to establish something of a backstory, such as him taking interest in old Jedi Holocrons and such learning from them, to explain how he can handle a Lightsaber so well.

[Garyn Dakari]

@ & @@eezstreet

 

While you might be right that Finn and Poe technically could've been merged, the theory that Finn was added later is incorrect, according to the art and making of book I've been reading the past few days.

 

In the earlier script, Finn(known as Sam) and Poe(John Doe) escape pretty much as they do in the movie, and then part on hostile terms on Jakku. I'm not really sure what becomes of John Doe in that version of the script, but Sam goes on to be a main character alongside Rey(Known then as Kira). Random side note, but in the early concept art for these character and this sequence, made long before casting, Sam, the trooper, is white, while John Doe, the resistance pilot, is black. In a later, near-final script, Poe was supposed to die in the crash. That was current all the way up until casting, as confirmed by JJ and Oscar Isaac. JJ specifically made the script change to have Poe survive because he wanted Isaac in the sequels.

 

But yeah, regardless of names and where they decided to take the character and such, the concept of a defecting storm trooper as one of the main cast was there almost from the beginning. Poe was barely a presence at all(Even less than the actual movie) until very late versions of the script.

[z3filus]

I hope to see deleted scenes that further explain some of these oddballs, or then I could just say that Disney ran out of ideas
creating 2 characters that are so much alike. The next movie will hopefully show Poe in much brighter light, and I'd like to see
the character of Fin do something brave again, he seems to have that "knight in shining armor" persona. Maybe he dies next.


I still wanna say that Boyega was the most convincing actor of the young&new people. Despite having these theories, the character of Fin
was intresting to watch and you know I was really thrown into his scenes, he was criticised by some but I'm totally expecting to see him in ep. eight
 

[dark_apprentice]

Nothing new, but not sure who's actually behind this one:

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni59327202/?ref=tsm_1_fb_s_IMDb_Marketing&linkId=19978308

[z3filus]

Nothing new, but not sure who's actually behind this one:

 

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni59327202/?ref=tsm_1_fb_s_IMDb_Marketing&linkId=19978308

I have no doubts for this one, becuse in my mind , IMDb = official/legit. 

 

And we did have it on the table here aswel, but I would have never wanted to see Anakin's ghost appear in episode seven as a Vader/Anakin hybrid.

It sounds cool, but it would further add conflict to episode six ending where you have young ani vs. old ani debate, now there would have been yet another version??

I belive that if a Jedi (why not a sith) could return as a ghost, it would be a pure version of the character, in Anakin's case, without the Vader outfit - as Hayden.

 

I think fans like to see the older anakin because they can't get over the fact that SW has expanded, that maybe Lucas shouldn't have included the Vader actor as a ghost.

I don't know if it ever made any sense, but sure as hell it doesn't make any sense to me today. And Obi-Wanb did say something like "Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin"

 

So I'd go with that and use Hayde for Anakins forceghost anywhere/everywhere as he was seen before he turned to the darkside. Not as a hybrid, or an older person.

 

[TheWhitePhoenix]

I have no doubts for this one, becuse in my mind , IMDb = official/legit. 

 

And we did have it on the table here aswel, but I would have never wanted to see Anakin's ghost appear in episode seven as a Vader/Anakin hybrid.

It sounds cool, but it would further add conflict to episode six ending where you have young ani vs. old ani debate, now there would have been yet another version??

I belive that if a Jedi (why not a sith) could return as a ghost, it would be a pure version of the character, in Anakin's case, without the Vader outfit - as Hayden.

 

I think fans like to see the older anakin because they can't get over the fact that SW has expanded, that maybe Lucas shouldn't have included the Vader actor as a ghost.

I don't know if it ever made any sense, but sure as hell it doesn't make any sense to me today. And Obi-Wanb did say something like "Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin"

 

So I'd go with that and use Hayde for Anakins forceghost anywhere/everywhere as he was seen before he turned to the darkside. Not as a hybrid, or an older person.

 

^This right here. If you want to put Hayden as Anakin for Episode VIII, I'm all for it. But do NOT make Anakin's ghost a Anakin/Vader hybrid. That's STUPID and contradicts what George Lucas established.

[JAWSFreelao]

I feel as if this movie tried to do too much in one film.

[DrXann]

The movie itself needed more variety in the amount of ships shown.Lets hope that 8 and 9 expand on the faction arsenals and bring back a few favorites.

[therfiles]

The movie itself needed more variety in the amount of ships shown.Lets hope that 8 and 9 expand on the faction arsenals and bring back a few favorites.

 

I agree. I really liked Kylo's shuttle and those troop transports but it really needed some new starfighters.

[DrXann]

I agree with you.

[dark_apprentice]

Some of the concepts of Ralph McQuarrie, while he was working on ROTJ, I will just quote:

– "While Ralph McQuarrie worked on initial concepts for Return of the Jedi, he did not stay on through the completion of the film as he had with the first two chapters in the Star Wars saga. As a result, many of the production paintings he created were for sequences that didn’t make it into the finished film, such as these sequences (below) of Vader taking Luke to meet the Emperor in his volcanic lair beneath a grand cathedral on the Imperial City (that would come to be known as Coruscant in the Expanded Universe and prequels). "

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-del-rey-star-wars-covers-of-ralph-mcquarrie-part-3

Also:

– Jedi Killer - New concept amended:

 

"The Jedi Killer design was like trying to land a helicopter

on a penny. We couldn't be too Vader-ish, but we couldn't reference something else too heavily."

[therfiles]

Really nice analysis from one of my favorite movie reviewers.

 

[DT.]

I just hope we get a flashback of Ben Solo training with Luke and the others, I feel it was too glossed over and needed a flashback scene.

[Futuza]

@@therfiles His review 20 minutes in is awesome because he points out what's new and most importantly that you have to view it in mind that it's part one of a trilogy and not intended to be a stand alone movie.  I also like how he actually reviews the film making stuff, like lighting and focus.  Haven't really seen any reviews that actually deal with that and its vastly important to a movie.  The review is point on, in so many ways.  It's amazing to me how many people don't know and understand the difference between an archetype, trope, and a cliche.

[Jolly]

[Archangel35757]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/rey-is-definitely-luke-skywalkers-daughter#.ssLzqR0dE

[TheWhitePhoenix]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/rey-is-definitely-luke-skywalkers-daughter#.ssLzqR0dE

Yeah....NEVER trust buzzfeed.

[Archangel35757]

Makes sense to me.

[TheWhitePhoenix]

Makes sense to me.

Just saying, cause ANYONE can write an article there.